Politically incorrect prog??
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Topic: Politically incorrect prog??
Posted By: cstack3
Subject: Politically incorrect prog??
Date Posted: August 30 2023 at 18:57
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I had to smile at the story about Queen's "Fat Bottom Girls" being deleted from this collection: On Aug. 11, https://www.universalmusic.com/yoto-announces-new-partnership-with-universal-music-group-to-bring-the-magic-of-music-to-kids-worldwide/" rel="nofollow - But when Yoto added the album this week, it did not include “Fat Bottomed Girls,” a cheeky song that includes lyrics about a “naughty nanny” with a “big fat fanny,” as well as “fat bottomed girls,” who “make the rocking world go around.” Yoto, which did not immediately respond to a request for comment, told the United Kingdom news outlet https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/queen-fat-bottomed-girls-greatest-hits-b2397154.html" rel="nofollow - I can name other prog songs that transgress modern boundaries of good taste & "wokeness," what do you have? More here: https://ultimateclassicrock.com/queen-fat-bottomed-girls-greatest-hits-missing/" rel="nofollow - https://ultimateclassicrock.com/queen-fat-bottomed-girls-greatest-hits-missing/ I can name other prog songs that transgress modern boundaries of good taste & "wokeness," what do you have? ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 30 2023 at 19:09
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'Cross-eyed Mary' . If the issue is 5 year-old listeners, then I get that. If the issue was not wanting to include a song about women with large glutes, I kinda get that too. If the issue was that Freddie Mercury was gayer than a small bag of scones so why would he care about a woman's body, I suppose I get that as well. Freedom goes both ways--- you can't say it's censorship and then expect to conduct your life & business as you see fit without interference. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 30 2023 at 19:22
Zappa wins hands down. A few... Dinah-Moe Humm, Bobby Brown, Jewish Princess, Harder than your Husband, Punky's Whips, Broken Hearts are for a****les, Titties and Beer, He's So Gay... should I continue? Gotta love Frank. 
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Posted By: Necrotica
Date Posted: August 30 2023 at 19:37
^ Then there's G-Spot Tornado, which was completely instrumental but still came under fire from the PMRC  ------------- Take me down, to the underground Won't you take me down, to the underground Why oh why, there is no light And if I can't sleep, can you hold my life https://www.youtube.com/@CocoonMasterBrendan-wh3sd |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: August 30 2023 at 19:58
Oh, there's quite a few Tull songs that would cross that line, and delightful they are. "Hunting Girl", for instance, is an ode to cunnilingus. Except, I don't think the censors would catch it (that whole ability to discern allusions and innuendo). And of course, out of nowhere, comes the infamous line rattled in rapid-fire on APP: "And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision -- the examing body examined her body!" Funny thing, I throughly enjoyed Aqualung as an 11 year old when it was released, "Cross-eyed Mary", "eyeing little girls with bad intent", and "the graven image you-know-who with his plastic crucifix" -- the whole damn glorious thing. But my parents were far more alarmed at Alice Cooper's "Dead Babies" than they ever were of Tull. P.S. What five year old is listening to prog? They should be given a gold star on their forehead and an ice cream cone for good measure.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Atavachron wrote:Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 30 2023 at 20:00
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^ Ian knew how to weave debauchery into such lovely rock music - ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: August 30 2023 at 21:43
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Thanks, this is the dialog I was expecting! Some of my favorites are Eno's songs! "Paw Paw Negro Blowtorch" is a bit obvious. in "King's Lead Hat," he sings about "four darkies in a big black car!" I lived in the UK for a while, so I'm familiar with the term. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: August 30 2023 at 21:45
GREAT answer! I forgot about "Jewish Princess!" When pushed about it, Frank said "What's the problem? I sing "I WANT a Jewish Princess!" Gotta love the guy! ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: August 30 2023 at 22:14
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ELP - Jeremy Bender Jeremy Bender was a man of leisure
Took his pleasure in the evening sun Laid him down in a bed of roses https://genius.com/21412042/Emerson-lake-and-palmer-jeremy-bender/Finally-decided-to-become-a-nun" rel="nofollow - - Finally decided to become a nun https://genius.com/21412067/Emerson-lake-and-palmer-jeremy-bender/Talked-with-his-sister-and-spoke-in-a-whisper" rel="nofollow - - Talked with his sister and spoke in a whisper https://genius.com/17439955/Emerson-lake-and-palmer-jeremy-bender/Threatened-to-fist-her-if-she-didnt-come-clean" rel="nofollow - - Threatened to fist her if she didn't come clean https://genius.com/21412076/Emerson-lake-and-palmer-jeremy-bender/Jumped-on-the-mother-just-like-a-brother-asked-one-another-if-the-others-a-queen" rel="nofollow - - Jumped on the mother, just like a brother - Asked one another if the other's a queen https://genius.com/20334507/Emerson-lake-and-palmer-jeremy-bender/Digging-the-sister-she-was-a-mister" rel="nofollow - - Digging the sister, she was a mister Shouldn't have kissed her but he couldn't say no Wanted to leave her, couldn't believe her So he picked up his suitcase and decided to go |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 01:23
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How about the famous Yes song "Let's Kill the Whale!" ? That one ended up on the cutting room floor, but Squire played it for me once! ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 01:38
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Most people giggle at these sexual "incorrectnesses" - but it's not so easy to be open-minded once we get to religious or even political/social issues. (not really prog, but definitely politically incorrect) ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 03:12
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Yup, Zap is about as politically incorrect as it comes. Love him for that, but TBH, all of his teenage smut lyrics had grown thin during my own teenage years.
Mercu!ry was a gay icon, but I understand that he was actually bi, hence the Bicycle Race video. And TBH, that FBGMTWRWGR song is about a certain way that women make men go crazy and the centre of their obsession, rather than misreading it as a misogynic attack. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 05:44
| Deep Purple's "Strange Kind of Woman" comes to mind. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 06:08
what's wrong with it?
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Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 06:21
| Faust - It's a Bit of a Pain. The spoken word in Swedish is about how some people think that some human races have more hair than others. The word negro is used. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 06:42
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Freak Kitchen - Gun God, Saving up for an Anal Bleach, Walls of Stupidity, Porno Daddy, Honey, You're a Nazi, etc. Bubblemath - Surface Tension, Doll Hammer, Your Disease is Nicer, etc. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 06:45
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Pursuing my thoughts about actual POLITICAL incorrectness, I highly recommend Zappa's Broadway The Hard Way live album. "Who's that hanging from the neighbor's tree? Looks like colored folks to me!" https://open.spotify.com/album/2phI9hXkfvn8DeBiqbZu4I?si=Aoz6HybCRNK4XxCNHD7tjg" rel="nofollow - https://open.spotify.com/album/2phI9hXkfvn8DeBiqbZu4I?si=Aoz6HybCRNK4XxCNHD7tjg ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 06:53
Freak Kitchen has always had funny lyrics, so anything humorous is politically incorrect now?!
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 07:00
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^ Of course what is or what isn't politically incorrect depends on who you're asking. But there's also several different "levels" - some things might be called PI but are actually funny to a person, while others are PI and off-limits, causing serious offense and aren't remotely funny. Example for the latter: "Black people can also be racist". Good luck to you if you propose that on social media nowadays. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 07:53
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Music is art and an artist can say what he wants, then you can decide whether to get it or not, unless it's an offense. I.e. Nazis and fascists are outlaws, at least in my country...at least on the paper. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 08:10
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^ Sure, technically there's the concept of free speech, which exists in most (Western) countries. But practically, if you say the wrong thing then you'll be cancelled. That can be catastrophic for an artist, if for example most venues will no longer let you perform there. Roger Waters went through serious legal battles in Germany, for example. So like I said above, political incorrectness can be tricky. Say the wrong incorrect thing and your career can be over. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 08:27
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Posted By: Stressed Cheese
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 10:00
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Fat Bottomed Girls isn't politically incorrect, it just might not be the most suitable for a kids' platform. If anything, the song very much fits with the current times and is empowering. Cross-Eyed Mary isn't that incorrect either. It's not the most friendly topic, but it's not explicit, nor encouraging child prostitution, it's more meant as a metaphor. Zappa is obvious one to mention. Some of his humor is more childish and perverted than 'incorrect'. In fact, most of it is, and I think he's funniest when he sticks to topics like dental floss, talking mountains or pigs inventing the calendar. Thing-Fish in particular does not come together well, and has some very backwards messages about gender roles. Unless the message is supposed to be the opposite, but with Zappa, you really can't tell sometimes unless you're literally Zappa himself. Bobby Brown also hasn't aged well. And not in the "you can't do that anymore these days", more in the "that's kind of embarassing now" vein. Though the idea of making an explicit diss-track in 1977 is very funny, of course. Jewish Princess is probably more embraced these days, but certain anti-anti-semitism groups have a bit of a kneejerk reaction that activates too quickly. I think most of the time, artists get in trouble for what they say outside of their songs. Nothing said in any songs from the 60's probably got anyone in as much trouble as when John Lennon made his famous "bigger than Jesus" remark. Recently, both Carlos Santana and Alice Cooper made some unfortunate transphobic statements, rightfully getting themselves in hot water.
99% of people will agree with that statement. To do otherwise is silly. Where some people get peeved, is that the phrase is often insterted where it doesn't belong - e.g. as a form of whataboutism by bad faith actors (or downright racist). The statement itself is true, but the context in which it is used is often in bad faith (like "All Lives Matter"). I suppose people who don't know that might get themselves into an argument.
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Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 10:21
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I knew Fat Bottomed Girls well as a kid. Having not received any English lessons yet, I had no idea what they were singing. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 10:23
They do use humor to criticize, mock negative aspects of society, every day life, awful, terrible people, etc...
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 13:43
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From a 2020 PA post, this one always gave me a chill.....regarding Amon Duul ii..... On a side note: The German lyrics of "Dem Guten, Schönen, Wahren" depict Jesus as a child molester with lines like "Die Kleinste fing an, nach der Mutter zu schreien. Ich durchbohrte sie sanft mit meinem Glied" ("The smallest started crying for her mother. I softly speared her with my member"). Perhaps the most daring lyrics ever. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 16:43
Knowing Rollins' politics I'm guessing if he met this little 'Lars von Retriever' idiot he'd probably break his nose. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 17:08
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Someone mentioned "let's kill the whale" by Yes. Really? I don't think Jon Anderson would sing on that. Was that a joke?
Speaking of Jon Anderson though he did put out a song a couple of years ago called "Go Screw Yourself." That's pretty politically incorrect also in a way.
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Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: August 31 2023 at 22:35
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While many of the Zappa examples listed seem politically incorrect if only interpreted textually, the implicit meaning behind them is to actually support the opposite. Or at least, to not support what is literally being said. It's done ironically, sarcastically even. The "what's that hangin' from the neighbors' tree?" line from Jesus Thinks You're a Jerk," for example, is a commentary on the ingrained nature of racism in a decent portion of the socially conservative base of the Republican party in the US that the song is lampooning. Similarly, the character of Bobby Brown from Sheik Yerbouti is NOT meant to be sympathetic. While Zappa would probably never be a person to respect the nit-picky, pedantic, or "superior" moralistic movements of online social justice warriors (he'd probably think it was all for self-aggrandizement, and many times, it is), his commentary wasn't ALWAYS a middle finger to "political correctness." It often had subtextual meaning. That being said, the manners in which he presented that info may not all be well-received this day in age, as they may be taken literally instead.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 00:57
You insulting the creator of the satire shows a leaning towards political correctness. Maybe even censorship?. How about this then: ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 06:28
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Hi, My thoughts are that anyone that is making comments about something being "politically incorrect" are the same folks that want to change our world into a bunch of folks wearing hijab's ... and I wish they wouldn't confuse these personal points with the reality in politics! The corruption of the language, for various ideological and bizarre thoughts and ideas, is by far the worst ... and none of us seem to care that even the education of our children these days is going back to 100 years ago, hiding everything, so you think ... is great again! Politically Indifferent! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 06:41
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 07:14
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^ He means that political correctness (or in other words: woke ideology) is changing the way we speak and think in many ways that are not aligned with actual science or even common sense, pervading our education systems, undoing much of the progress we've had since the enlightenment. These days people are taught to support "the current thing" rather than think for themselves, and to attack people who do not think alike. Just like Atavachron was name-calling the creator of the Biden video that I posted.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 08:16
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Any ideas about how to view Tool's lyrics because I'm not quite sure how positively to do it? ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 08:20
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^ you could use a search engine for the interwebs. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 10:59
Hi, (Thanks) Sometimes I think some folks simply are not interested in reading anything ... gotta have the Cliff Notes for the Internet (can I claim the rights on it?) ... so that anyone can use some one-word comment ... for what they could not conceive. The side that is saddest for me, is when folks don't bother to ask, or try to understand what is being said or written. To each his own, I guess ... just another typical non-comment about something or other ... again! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 11:33
| Unfortunately we do seem to have made backwards steps from the values of the enlightenment. It's led to both "left" and "right" (so to speak) extremism, both fuelling each other's intolerance / closed-mindedness. The expression that comes of free-thinking and critical thinking commonly is discouraged and people are silenced by other's hostility -- people who wish to shut down conversation rather than explore ideas. The lazy labelling of people is one thing that has such a deleterious effect. Sad indeed. |
Posted By: Frets N Worries
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 11:56
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How has no one mentioned 'In the Flesh' off of 'The Wall' ------------- The Wheel of Time Turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the shadow. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time... |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 12:40
The German authorities did on Roger Waters' tour this year. Him in the Nazi uniform singing these lyrics was used (among other things) as a basis to try to paint him as a bigotted anti-semite. Needless to say, the whole thing is clearly satire. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Stressed Cheese
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 16:13
Relax.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 16:24
No not really, it shows political opinion. There's a difference. I don't think the satire should be removed, and I don't think presidential politics has anything to do with 'political correctness'. Presidents are bashed, and the bashers are bashed back. So it goes. I also happen to think Henry Rollins would want to break the guys nose... or at least the young Rollins. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 16:44
I would disagree....I'm a certified US public school teacher (grades 6 through 12), and we go through all sorts of sensitivity training. Fat Bottommed Girls would be classified as "fat-ist," see https:///www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fatism" rel="nofollow - https:///www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fatism Almost any body-image is protected these days....kids with severe acne used to be mocked & reviled (e.g. "pizza face"), but that stuff gets students and teachers in big trouble in the USA. And I think this is a good thing. I never much cared for "Fat Bottommed Girls" as a song or topic anyway. Give me "Ogre Battle" or "Now I'm Here." ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 18:20
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How about "Big Bottom" by Spinal Tap? |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 19:01
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^ The beauty of parody -- ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 20:43
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I think the Ginga Rale Band is one of the best off the radar jazz-fusion bands of all time but on their one album they have not one but TWO songs with this unsavory title. Thankfully it's instrumental music. -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: September 01 2023 at 21:27
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Pink Floyd - Not Now John and parts of the Wall album Genesis - Illegal Alien
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 02 2023 at 00:16
Fat-shaming is not nice. But when the “sensitivity training” then leads to health-shaming, it can arguably be worse. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 02 2023 at 01:08
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 02 2023 at 01:12
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Led Zeppelin - Sick Again. I don't know how people originally reacted to it, but that's become a lyrically incorrect (not so much politically) song which actually make me kind of uncomfortable. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 02 2023 at 01:42
Illegal Alien was meant to be funny but it's just done in poor taste. "Pink Floyd - Not Now John and parts of the Wall album" - I don't see what's so wrong with The Wall and TFC (Not Now John). |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: September 02 2023 at 07:21
I actually played that song onstage in the Spinal Tap parody band "Casual Crobar!" The loudest band in Tulsa, Oklahoma USA.....an art project that spun out of control! I'm the geek in the white lab coat!  ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 02 2023 at 07:49
Hi, it's been like that forever here in the US and it probably goes way back to the beginnings of film, which was done by rich kids that were having fun! And it stayed that way, until after WW2 when congress decided to blacklist a lot of folks for plain innuendoes, and of course, a few years back that president loved to fire people and have them removed from their job ... and we allowed it to happen because he was the president. Not to mention that for many years in Europe and during some fascist days, you got the bullet in your head instead! The most important thing is that no one in America, stood up for those folks ... and to me, it seems to suggest that no one cares anyway ... and the vocal minority on the Internet immediately says that he/she deserved to get fired! Go ahead, and let he/she that hath no sin cast the first stone ... but no ... everyone casts the stones because it hides their own fall from grace, and human care. There isn't enough respect for human beings these days, for this to be important. And thus, various states here continue to create laws so they do not have to take the issue to a public vote, where they will certainly lose! But I wish/hope that America wakes up one day ... but I don't think it can until we have a 3rd party that matters, or a different side of the media that is not afraid to stand up to the "bullies". We had some of that during the 60's going as far back as the famous LA Free Press and many other publications, but those were systematically killed ... and too many of us slept right through it and didn't care because spending your money on Fleetwood Mac was more important!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Stressed Cheese
Date Posted: September 02 2023 at 14:35
Fat-shaming is bad, but Fat Bottomed Girls is a celebration of big booties, so it's the polar opposite of fatism. Today's young people are much more open about their love for for thicc girls and pawgs than people were in 1978, so the song is ahead of its time, if anything. The reason it was removed from Yoto is because it's a suggestive song, not because of anything related to body image issues or fatism. Seriously, read the lyrics. Just because the word 'fat' is in it, doesn't make it fatist.
It's strange how it's supposed to be a song that shows the sadness Plant feels for these girls, but it doesn't really come across like that to me, neither lyrically nor musically. Knowing Jimmy Page had a relationship with a 14-year old girl in the 70's certainly doesn't make the song feel any less icky. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: September 02 2023 at 15:09
Well, on "Not Now John" there's the F word but also the line about the "wiley Japanese" which could maybe be considered racist (not sure about the rest of the album). As far as the wall album goes look up the second part of the lyrics to "In The Flesh" and you'll see what I mean. Definitely politically incorrect.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 02 2023 at 15:16
So the use of the "f word" is politically incorrect? What's racist about "wiley Japanese"? The Wall is the story of a man having a nervous breakdown. I don't see what offensive here.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 02 2023 at 15:24
Sure! Fat-bottomed Girls is just a fun song, Queen were not trying to "shame" anything. I was talking about the sensitivity training. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: September 02 2023 at 15:33
I don't think so. Indeed, I don't think it will be long before it is no longer considered a swear word. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: September 02 2023 at 16:09
Maybe not politically incorrect but at the time the radio replaced the word with "stop" as in "stop all that.." instead of "f**k all that." You don't see how attributing one quality to a whole group of people based on race could be seen as racist? What if he said "sneaky black people?" Or "angry white people?" I don't think he meant in that way in the context of the song but I can see how it could be interpreted that way. Oh well, we all see things differently. That's what makes the world go around.
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Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 03 2023 at 00:13
Yes, we all see things differently, but understanding context is the essential thing here, isn't it?
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 03 2023 at 01:23
I am relaxed. What gave you the impression that I was not? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Neu!mann
Date Posted: September 06 2023 at 07:26
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the King Crimson classic Ladies of the Road yet...a song about groupies and sex that was just good fun in the early 1970s, but might be considered offensive in the oversensitive, insecure 21st century. ------------- "we can change the world without anyone noticing the difference" - Franco Falsini |
Posted By: Stressed Cheese
Date Posted: September 06 2023 at 08:38
I don't know why some people are so desperate to believe this. I know it might not be as apparent if you're over a certain age and primarily listen to (old) prog, but a lot of (mainstream) music (pop, rap, hip-hop, etc., but also rock) these days is much more daring and explicit than Ladies of the Road. Outside of the suggestive school-reporter mention, it probably doesn't even scratch the top of the most incorrect lyrics of its era, let alone outside of it.
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: September 06 2023 at 09:00
Yes, context but not everyone gets that. If I called you a jerk without knowing you that would be different if I called you a jerk if I knew you for years and you knew my sense of humor. An outsider might not see that.
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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: September 06 2023 at 09:02
Maybe but you hear a lot worse in lyrics today but they have to have a parental advisory sticker on them.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 06 2023 at 09:30
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Roy Harper - The Death Of God. The Black Cloud Of Islam. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: September 06 2023 at 15:20
OP here....I appreciate any and all contributions! Personally, I would not have considered Ladies of the Road, but am glad for the suggestion! Regarding rap/hip-hop, the violent messages conveyed (killing police, abuse of women etc.) makes that some of the most repellent music. I dig the rhythms, but don't find much of value in it for listening. In retrospect, prog is probably the least offensive genre! ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 06 2023 at 16:21
Why? I fail to see why Rollins would want to do that to this guy specifically. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 06 2023 at 18:01
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^ What difference does it make-- freedom of expression includes many things, doesn't it. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 06 2023 at 21:14
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^ Well, it doesn't include breaking noses |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 07 2023 at 00:45
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^ No but it includes me thinking a young Henry Rollins might react that way, and saying such. I'm sorry that bothers you. As for why I think it, I mentioned it's because of his political views... not to mention a crass version of his best known song. Yeah, you could say Henry might be a little peeved. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 07 2023 at 04:20
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^ I don't know Henry Rollins personally, but I know descriptions of him having had anger issues in the past. But I'm not sure he's quite that petty. This does not "bother" me - I merely find it intriguing that you would be so sure about how he reacts to satire. That level of confidence would suggest to me that there's some interviews or statements to that effect. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: September 07 2023 at 07:02
ELP's Brain Salad Surgery (the album title, but the song on Works as well) was about fellatio. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: David_D
Date Posted: September 07 2023 at 10:01
I can't say about that, but according to Edward Macan's Rocking the Classics (1997, p.74), BSS is a concept album about "the opposition between man and machine that dominates the entire album". ------------- quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 07 2023 at 11:56
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Cosmiclawnmower
Date Posted: September 07 2023 at 12:26
Not to mention 'Forbidden Fruit' off of Valentine.. ------------- |
Posted By: Stressed Cheese
Date Posted: September 07 2023 at 16:29
Prog is really not that provocative or daring most of the time. Most of the more talked about prog albums are from the 70's anyway. I'm sure there's a lot of more positive rap, or rap that uses provocative imagery to talk about something important. But the stereotype of the genre isn't always that "nice" I guess. But it's not my genre.
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Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: September 07 2023 at 22:40
Good catch, thanks! I remember that from years ago! ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 00:16
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 01:05
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^ Then stay clear of it. But this attitude of "You should be able to do what you want and if the artist or subject objects they're being anti-freedom!" is childish, unrealistic and frankly retarded. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 01:16
I don't think Lars mocked Henry Rollins - he mocked Joe Biden, who is a pathological liar, which makes the sarcastic video perfectly reasonable. Of course Rollins might object to the video for various reasons. But in a free society people have to be able to express their opinion without fear of violence. If you disagree with that - fine, but then you have to accept the fact that you are against a free society. You didn't say one way or the other - so suppose Henry Rollins today sees this video, gets angry, goes to "Lars"'s house, rings, and when he opens, Rollins punches him in the nose. Ok or not?
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 06:51
I don't see that lyric, or Islam mentioned anywhere, but I guess the Black Cloud of Christianity and Judaism is trendy, and thus, acceptable. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 07:13
The Black Cloud Of Islam is a song.
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Posted By: Stressed Cheese
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 10:03
Right. Some remarks should probably lead you to expect people might wanna punch you over them. Some remarks warrant a good punch, even. Not this Biden stuff maybe, but yeah.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 10:40
I am not much of one for thought-crime, so if it leads to someone wanting to punch someone, well that is freedom of thought (violent thoughts should be a concern), but as a freedom of expression as a response to insult/mockery (or perceived insult and mockery because I have been accused of that when it was not at all my intent) I have serious issues with violence. What would be acceptable for punching would vary, how hard the punch can be would vary, interpretations will vary, if it can be other forms of violence will vary. I don't trust individuals to make such decisions and mete out retribution (not a great believer in retribution) justly. I support laws that discourage violence. A punch could lead to fatality and very serious injury, and might even be due to a misunderstanding of intent. Another might behead someone for causing offence, or stab them, or shoot them.... Oha, and I also believe in having limits on what speech is allowed. I was driving a big van with my child to kindergarten (the kindergarten happened to be church-run). I changed lanes when I should not have as there was a car who was speeding more than he should have. I had indicated that I would be changing lanes with plenty of notice. There was no accident and he had to slow down quite quickly (not slam his brakes fast). It often has happened to me on the other end. I waved my apology and turned into the church parking lot which was very close-by (that's why I needed to change lanes). The man, much heftier than I, pulled in and started yelling and swearing at me and telling me that he was going to punch me. "I'm going to punch you, would you like that? Wanna be punched? I'm gonna punch you in the face." I was, why would I want that? By this time my 5 year old by this time was crying wildly and he just kept going. This man was so irate. I apologised multiple times and he kept on threatening me. He even had an older religious man in the side-seat (wearing a turban) which I thought would be very disrespectful to him, and more-so on so-called holy ground and more-so by a preschool/ kindergarten. I told him multiple times, let's go the police station and make a report. We can call them. I'll be perfectly honest and accept any consequences from them if there are any. If he wanted to punch me, okay, but I don't think doing it would be fine, and not in front of a young child, and I don't think his super aggressive, threatening and downright rude behaviour was warranted. But I guess to him it was, and his passenger did not complain -- just calmly looked on. Who is to decide, who is the arbiter of what's right and what's wrong? Well, i think that's why we need laws that limit freedom of expression. I think he realised that the police would not be very sympathetic to his behaviour. I kept as calm as I could be and he left. I would rather us have spoken to the police. It was a horrible and scary experience for me, and I was very concerned for my child. Even if he had no empathy or sympathy for me, he might have for the child who was bawling her eyes out as he spewed out a torrent of abusive and threatening language despite my apologies. And I would not be surprised if a young Henry Rollins had punched me in those circumstances, but an older Rollins has spoken out against violence and hate. For some, they are quick to anger and wish violence on people due to perceived insult and rage. I have seen threats here at PA against people (about smashing someone's teeth in), and I am not okay with that. The polkitics thread would get really heated and nasty sometimes. And I don't jibe with the mentality of someone who would want to break someone's nose, or smash in their teeth, because they are offended. Ouch, I think, it's like I feel that pain. And then you are legally responsible for the consequences. I had a kid at elementary school who, I don't know why, maybe I offended him, decided to uppercut my jaw. I needed multiple root canals and my parents payed for it. I think the boy should have had consequences, not by my punching back, but having his parents pay for the dentist and taking that out of his allowance or whatever (such dental work can cost thousands). |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 11:02
Well yeah, I mean I'm estimating how Rollins might've reacted. Real life and ideals often conflict. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 11:08
Illegal. Is it OK ? That's a matter of opinion. This is why laws are so important, people do things, sometimes destructive things, and may face consequences. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Stressed Cheese
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 11:53
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^^Logan, of course in that scenario violence isn't warranted, and that sounds like an awful thing to experience. A lot of people wouldn't have been able to keep things from escalating like you managed. Now I'm not a violent person myself (I've never once gotten into a fight - not even as a kid), and I'm not saying that there's a fool-proof way to determine when a punch is warranted. All I mean to say is, some people's views are so abhorrent that not only might you wish to see them punched, but if you did see it, it'd be satisfying.
It comes down to the old question, "is it okay to punch a nazi?". Some people like to over-think this question, and come up with addendums like "who decides who's a nazi?", or "what if they're already being punished by law for the things they say", but that's besides the point. The answer, in a broad sense, is yes. Yes it is okay. At the end of the day, some opinions and statements go beyond mere disagreement and reach into detestable territory that it's only natural to want to see them suffer (to some degree - I doubt even the most progressive person would want to see a Nazi get lynched). E.g., regardless of whether or not, say, Theirry Baudet suffers legal ramifications for some of the things he says, I'd still be happy if I was him on the news with a black eye and a bloodied lip. Doesn't mean I'm going to be the one punching him, but my moral compass tells me he deserves it, and I have zero respect for the man. I know it's a bit off-topic and it has nothing to do with that biden parody anymore, but I felt like I should clear that up. Just so people don't think I go around punching people who cut me off in traffic or who disagree with me. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 12:34
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 12:53
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You're all so evolved and idealistic, but it's important to keep one foot in the real world. Right now in the U.S. we are facing an existential threat from the extreme Right Wing. Is it okay to punch a Nazi? You bet it is, it may be the only thing a Nazi understands. If you're unwilling to stand up for what's right, or hope that someone else will do it for you, you are sorely mistaken. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Stressed Cheese
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 13:10
Yes, but the hypothetical isn't necessarily about literally punching a nazi. But interpreting it like that, it's not these people you talk about making the judgement of who is punch-worthy or not. It's a hypothetical where you already know for a fact that the person who would or would not recieve the supposed punch is a bad, bad person. And I know for a fact that I would make the judgment that, say, Dennis Prager deserves to be punched. The ramifications, who delivers the punching, and whether or not people would agree with me is besides the point. It's the fact that he is such a bad person that he deserves to be punched.
This is very well put IMO. The people who I'd like to see punched are the very same people who would love to see various groups they deem inferior hurt, silenced, restricted. They're not interested in debate, they're not just disagreeing over something. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 13:19
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^^ Yeah I wouldn't trust your jugdement in regards to what's right either. I'm not particularly idealistic. I think a State monopoly on violence is better than you running around and breaking the noses on people you dislike. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 13:19
Oh, I understood you and had not assumed you to be the kind of droog who is up for a little of the old ultraviolence. A problem I have is that in what scenario it is warranted is, outside of laws, subjective, and I think going the way of thinking it is okay in some cases of perceived or definite insult/ discrimination/ parody/ intolerance is very problematic. I am not okay with punching a Nazi unless it is self-defence or used in the defence another person, and I don't think that it is an effective strategy that will win the hearts of people or change minds. If it was, then I might change my mind (as a moral consequentionalist kind of thinking). I'd happily see all murderers and rapists spontaneously get bloody noses. I knew a Neo-Nazi (for my college days), very intelligent guy with abhorrent views and a difficult upbringing and he came to change his mind as he studied at university. His ideas were challenged, not his face. Attack the argument, not the man, as the saying goes, unless you really need to. And be prepared to own up to and accept the consequences. I would get no pleasure from seeing a beaten up Nazi, well I might well in some cases as with many other groups and individuals. and I heartily dislike violence. I have a strong a sense of empathy, and that goes towards people whose views I may find abhorrent. I also wonder why did they turn out that way? I'm a determinist. I can feel very sorry for some because they were raised with those views and surrounded by others with those views, and maybe they have not learned to be critical thinkers. It's like lot of people are raised with racist views or discriminatory religious views. Some aren't too smart, some want to fit in, some are just the dregs of humanity, the dispossessed and hopeless, who need to feel better than somebody else, group, or race. Trash as we might call them. And I wish so many people did not think it acceptable to quickly resort to violence or to threats of it, or even to contemplate it as a course of action and legitimise and rationalise it as much as some do (often it's such an emotional reaction). It may be in our nature, but I think that has become far too normalised as a response and desire. I am not a big fan of retributive justice, I do tend to favour restorative justice, and I don't get pleased to see people hurt. Doesn't necessarily mean that I will be displeases depending on the scenario. Of course sometimes violence is necessary, particularly when acting on other's violence. Oh and I am one that can see breaking the laws sometimes that one sees unjust or because of emergency as long as one is willing to accept the consequences, at least in a society like mine where we have more freedoms than in many places and generally norms and laws that I am on-board with. On a side note, there is an anime called Death Note where someone has a notebook which you can use to execute people. I have thought that if I had that I would be using it -- maybe starting with a bad hostage situation or known murderer or rapist on the loose, then to other killers including world leaders who wage war on others and persecute people, and then, despite being against the death penalty on principle, maybe to get rid of a lot more people who might already be imprisoned, and then who knows? |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 13:21
Oh... r e a l l y ? So you believe in Totalitarian government... better to have secret police & trains running on time than a few fistfights in the street, is it? ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 13:23
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^ That's not a totalitiarian government, but how an actual functioning democracy works. Taking the law in your own hands is anarchy. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 13:25
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^ Well since Europe has the worst tradition of fascism in history and seems willing to fall back to authoritarianism when things get difficult, that shouldn't surprise me. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 14:00
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Perhaps a bit off-topic but regarding censorship in Prog, this is a funny case: In 1975 Spain was still under the dictatorship of General Franco (he died on that year) and there was still significant censorship regarding politically or "morally" incorrect issues. Knowledge of English language was still very scarce and mostly you could expect that most censors did not speak it, at most they could search the words in dictionaries to check that you were not saying anything "incorrect". Iceberg in their debut album Tutankhamon included the song Lying on the Sand, about the slaves who worked in ancient Egypt, it was sung in English. They wanted to say the slaves had a "f**k*ng kind of life" but were afraid censors might censor the lyrics, so they wrote "fakin' " in the lyrics transcription, so censors did not understand the word and let it pass  |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 14:48
"okay to punch a nazi" ... sure, sounds reasonable to many people. But how hard do you punch, and how certain are you that the person is a "nazi", and what does that mean - does the person follow a nazi ideology, are there merely suspicions that they might be a nazi, or that they know nazis - or have they committed nazi crimes? These things matter. Maybe Atavachron thinks Lars is a nazi, and that justifies a punch. If you punch hard enough, people die. Probably ok if they were (maybe) nazis? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 14:58
Sorry, but I think it is much more totalitarian to think that artists deserve a punch in the face for doing satire, than to outlaw fistfights in the streets. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 15:02
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^ Sounds like a classic European mentality. Peace & order... or we'll arrest you. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 08 2023 at 15:08
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^ What does it have to do with Europe? Please name your favorite country on this planet where it is legal to go up to someone and punch them in the face. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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