I've been listening to Compassionizer at the request of one of the musicians. I really like this kind of music but it's a style with which I'm not really that familiar. I'm not completely clueless, as I had a Univers Zero phase some years ago but didn't really branch out. I assume this is what people mean by Chamber Rock?

Sometimes when I'm listening, when there are no drums or guitars, I'm pressed to wonder whether there's any "rock" going on. Is this what modern chamber music, coming from a classical frame, sounds like? Also, some of the sections do remind me of prog. 

It seems like this music gets lumped in with avant-garde but that seems like something quite separate.

So any suggestions on where to read to better understand this genre?

And after Univers Zero, where next? Maybe not quite so dark.

^ I concur with that recommendation.

A vast domain... but very interesting to explore. And not necessarily without drums or guitars, but the instrumentation can sometimes resemble more to those of a chamber music ensemble than to that of a rock band. And sometimes (often?) it is a mix of both.No intentions to "teach" you whatever, I'm not an expert, but just some recommendations to explore, eventually.

Close to compassionizer, I guess, is Roz Vitalis. I particularly like their recent album The Hidden Man of the Heart (available on https://rozvitalis.bandcamp.com/album/the-hidden-man-of-the-heart" rel="nofollow - bandcamp .

One of my personal favourites are https://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3245" rel="nofollow - Die anarchistische Abendunterhaltung (aka DAAU). Five or six years ago they issued an album - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VG-oo9Mt2k&list=OLAK5uy_kDDW1L5Img7GqWj7sXSzVEd3iri1Xhnfk" rel="nofollow - Hineininterpretierung - revisiting previous work, which is a wonderful introduction to their music.

And then there is https://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=5956" rel="nofollow - The Penguin Cafe Orchestra as - another - major reference to explore, in my opinion (not many drums, though). There is a recent https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=130734" rel="nofollow - thread about them that could help you further.

Add Pikapika Teart & 5 Storey Ensemble

Keep them coming, nice topic! Although I'm too late to the party to recommend my favourites as they have mostly already been named. All NSRO albums are great, as is Presence by Five-storey ensemble. I'd also have named DAAU, Aranis, Penguin Cafe Orchestra... I know, nothing that hasn't been said before.

Let's see whether I can come up with something not yet nominated... not sure whether people would call Karda Estra chamber prog, but for me much of their work fits here. Try out the fantastic Eve album.

Art Zoyd of course are a standard address but if you want it less dark than Univers Zero maybe that's the wrong direction.

Personally by the way I don't find genre labels that important, so I don't mind that something is called Chamber ROCK that doesn't have much rock in it. In fact I'm not quite sure from your posting whether you're asking explicitly for more "rocky" recommendations or whether you're fine with things that aren't.

PS: I listen to Megalázottak és Megszomorítottak by After Crying right now, another great album. Once more not sure about their classification but it sounds pretty chamber prog to me.

suitkees wrote: ... A vast domain... but very interesting to explore. And not necessarily without drums or guitars, but the instrumentation can sometimes resemble more to those of a chamber music ensemble than to that of a rock band. And sometimes (often?) it is a mix of both.No intentions to "teach" you whatever, I'm not an expert, but just some recommendations to explore, eventually. ...

The idea of "chamber" music would, for me, blow out the idea of "rock" ... however, there is a lot of work out there that really brings out the "chamber rock" thought to life really well, and still be some of the best defined "chamber rock" material ever.

I specially like TERJE RYPDAL's album EOS, which is done with David Darling on cello, and aside from a first cut on it which seems not to fit, but its probably designed to intentionally tell you ... either listen, or leave! ... this album becomes some of the pretties music ever recorded, even with all the special effects on the bass and the guitar, making this the one combo that you can easily put together on a stage without all the hoopla, and it is simply about the music itself ... very very classical in its context, and you get the idea quickly, that it was designed specially about the "feel" of the instruments, not as some kind of rock bullsh*t, or musical idea. It comes off as extremely classical and the beauty of the whole thing is insane ... but not something that a lot of "progressive" minions can listen to ... no drums to give you a beat that you don't have, and no keyboards to give you the illusion of something else ... and in just 2 instruments you get to see what a lot of music history has given us in the last 500 years ... some incredible beauty and it has to do with the music, not some kind of stupid "progressive" idea.

I, also, would be careful about calling it "rock" since the term itself assumes that it has a beat and is a "format". In this case, EOS is way beyond formats, something that PA has a real hard time in these threads.

I would look for "chamber music" first, and then you will find some folks that added a few elements of rock music that did not deter from the result, as a suggestion.

I'm open to anything though I have my tastes like everyone. I was just a little curious how this little corner of the music world came to be. It seems like some classical training or at least traditional composition concepts would be needed to pull it off. 

As for a less dark suggestion Aranis and DAAU (Tub Gurnard Goodness) are great suggestions already mentioned.

I have a soft spot for Rachel's - Selenography (Post-Rock'ish chamber rock) + the even easier on the ears: ZNR, Penguin Cafe Orchestra and the almost purely neoclassical (but on PA for a reason) Les Fragments de la Nuit.

Negoba wrote: ... It seems like some classical training or at least traditional composition concepts would be needed to pull it off.

Hi,

I'm not sure it is all as simple as that. Terje Rypdal, is, very obviously well educated musically, going way back to his "Odyssey" days, but at the time, his work was more on the jazz side of things, although I am not sure if even the term "jazz" fits, but it was very open and exploratory, which would suggest his guitar education was not classically minded, but likely part self taught, but at any rate, his ability to meld with the musicians, was quite apparent, and create some nifty moments.

Later, he ended up doing a lot of orchestral and concert related work, that I suppose shows that he had developed his musical side to a classical extent, however, I imagine that you can learn something in playing after 30 years on the instrument, and composition. But he never really got away from the experimental side, doing things that were very different all around.

He was born to a composer, and he learned piano early, but he took up the guitar on his own ... which suggests that the "musical" feel for the piano was not there, (or the teachers, which is usually the case) and he developed the guitar taste very quickly.

The idea of "chamber music" is something about the player wanting to do something separate from his band ... that makes sense, and because of the commerciality these days, no one is going to try it as no producer/company is going to give you money for you to try something that does not sell ... they will say, go ahead, but I'm not there! Thus, in these days, you do not see many of these folks even try something completely different ... as they might be concerned with sales.

However, the Internet is the devil and there is music of all kinds out there and on top of it, in many variations, as you can see by the suggestions made. Personally, it is not "chamber" if it has a drummer and a bass player for me, specially these two keeping up a time ... instead of working the music. Most bands don't even know how to play without the beat and the pulse, which ought to tell you that the idea of "chamber anything" is completely out of line and impossible for many folks ... and you could easily say that their musical training is lacking since they can not free themselves from their chains.

Chamber music is about "no chains". And you can hear it on EOS, as the best there is!

I listened to Terje Rypdal and EOS which I very much enjoyed. However, that music seems different from what I'd heard of as chamber music or chamber rock. At least for me, the stereotypic image of chamber music would be a quartet playing baroque music which is very much in meter and completely composed and not improvised. 

I really like jazz and especially jazz fusion and the kind of music I heard on EOS seemed more akin to certain types of fusion or even "tone poems." You can tell that there was a background planned structure, but a lot it seems improvised. I may be wrong.

It seems like we're using "chamber" with different ideas in mind.

Negoba wrote: ... However, that music seems different from what I'd heard of as chamber music or chamber rock. At least for me, the stereotypic image of chamber music would be a quartet playing baroque music which is very much in meter and completely composed and not improvised.  ...

Hi,

The 20th century and beyond works in music started with the revolution of what was (more than likely) improvised music. That music history, before that, was not improvised, is a joke and likely not quite true, mostly because we do not have the information we need to make that thought real.

The only REASON why we think it is "composed" is because after so many years, it has been scored down on a staff, and you (or anyone else) has not done that for Terje Rypdal's work, and thus, consider it improvised, which is unfair ... it's like saying that it can not be good music, and it has been pproven long time ago, that improvisation is a major tool ... THAT IS NOT ONLY USED IN SCHOOLS OF MUSIC BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT A STARTING POINT IS.

To appreciate more "chamber" material, you have to get off the "composed" idea. I think you have criticized a lot of rock music, because it happens to be, just like jazz, a medium that has a lot of improvisation, specially in solos. This is what the 20th century in music was all about.

Differing the work of Terje's (in this case) as "improvisational" merely means you are only listening to something that is structured and kept in that order and format.

Very sad really. The feeling side of the EOS album is far superior than a lot of "chamber" anything out there, but I'm not sure that you can "feel" that because you think a score is needed and it has to be "composed" and not just played. You DO NOT SCORE your emotions ... you just feel them, and you stating that it has to be controlled by a score is nutz ... totally nutz, and makes no sense whatsoever in the human spirit and condition. We are mired in "improvisation, and yet, you think that the only possible existence of feelings, and specially ideas, is if they are "composed" and "formatted" to your liking ... the worst and biggest fallacy about music and its history that schools do not want to teach because it takes away their "freedom" to define music, by the history of the lies.

And for the record, according to RW on his special on Vivaldi, he was a master improviser, and could add anything anywhere ... and the guy had to go back to his "structured" universe ... and I'm sure that are many other composers that had the same problem ... in fact, Mozart, seemingly wrote from a visual perspective in a lot of his work. But we don't listen to Mozart for the feeling and far out sections ... we listen to Mozart because of the score ... what a joke. Better than "too many notes"!

I think that really breaks up what music is all about, and simply shows that one major side of music, and its history (not to mention jazz!) can't be appreciated. No one had scripted Miles Davis when he did the material he did, either ... so I guess that Miles doesn't deserve any credit either, and in many ways, some of his jazz material almost fits as "chamber" material.

Oh well ... so much for the idea of composed, as what DEFINES music, specially when it has had hundreds of years to get scored, which a lot of rock and jazz music will get in the future. I would think that the perspective in music is missing, and needs to be adjusted.

^ Oh god Moshkito going completely off the rails again. Your ECM jazz/ambient-suggestion is mighty fine album, but misses the mark in regards to what Negoba is asking for. Don't you see? Everyone else understands. And how do you handle that?... By lecturing him in a very unsympathetic and belittling way, about a lot of stuff that's not all that relevant. As always.

-Maybe EOS is far superior to a lot of "chamber" anything out there. So what? I think all of my most treasured sixties jazz records are superior to my own suggestions here. And they are all played by ensembles small enough to fit inside a small room or chamber if you will. But I know they represent a differnt kind of music.

-You know there's this certain kind of approach to chamber music that came to form in the mid to late 1970's. A handful of ensembles started fusing 20th century classical/avant garde music inspired by composers such as Bartok, Stravinsky. Messiaen etc... with a sort of approach to "popular music" or rock that Zappa, King Crimson, Beefheart mm... had paved way for. So Negoba asks for "Chamber Rock" suggestions that's maybe less dark than Univers Zero (and probably Art Zoyd).

That's just the image I had in my head. Nothing really special about it. Just trying to give an example for the point that you clearly got but Moshkito took in a strange direction.

I did not criticize any type of music. I did not try to define music, which is a fool's errand as music has had so many different roles for different humans, different cultures, across different times.

I like improvised music and I like composed music. The fact that the lines between those ideas is more blurred than we might think is a point well taken.

If you had simply suggested EOS and said "This is a bit out of the usual conceptualization of chamber rock, see what you think" we may have had a nice conversation. Instead you've monologued at me and others which is quite unpleasant.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion. Terje is a great player and musician.

It's Pedro's way, he finds it impossible to simply provide recommendations within the parameters requested. Best advice is to ignore the lecture and check the recommendations to see if they are of interest. He isn't going to modify how he interacts with others regardless of feedback he receives.

I'll probably get a telling off from him for this response.

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote: ... It's Pedro's way, he finds it impossible to simply provide recommendations within the parameters requested. Best advice is to ignore the lecture and check the recommendations to see if they are of interest. He isn't going to modify how he interacts with others regardless of feedback he receives. I'll probably get a telling off from him for this response.

Hi,

You won't. I'm not in the business of doing that.

My only thought is to show a different way to look at the music, and how the term itself "chamber rock" is a limitation, that makes it all sound like a bunch of small pieces by Mozart ... he had hundreds of them all numbered ... and rock music as you and I know it, has changed a lot of that ... and the only thought I had was that "chamber rock" was expecting to find a bass, a drum, etc, etc ... and a guitar of course, taking away the actual feeling of just one, two or three people in your living room playing.

On top of it, considering that "improvisation" is not valid music because it is not "scored" is not a good idea ... there goes a lot of jazz right out the window.

My suggestion would be that he define, better, what he wants in "chamber rock" because all I can see of it right now is a bunch of unplugged bands on the old MTV thing! And a lot of the suggestions do not really come home as "chamber" ... again ... a sort of let's just play in your living room kind of thing, and not necessarily something that is composed and scored and has to be followed so it is a format, and (above all) recognizable by all of us!

New music out the door, please. Chamber or not!

moshkito wrote: My suggestion would be that he define, better, what he wants in "chamber rock" because all I can see of it right now is a bunch of unplugged bands on the old MTV thing!

I didn't know your ears wasn't properly functioning. If I did I would have tried to reply in a more understanding way. Sorry...or wait... could it be that you have no idea what your talking about and that you haven't actually listened to the music you have these outrageously inane takes on? 

-Anyway, some of the ensembles suggested/mentioned do improvise, while others perform more strictly composed material. I actually think we're all quite capable of enjoying both variations here. Newsflash: It's not just you!

I also like NSRO quite a bit. Pretty chill.

I think I listened to Aranis way back in the day but I really like them. Can get a little frenetic - need to be in the right frame of mind. I was listening in the car with my wife who was initially on board but at one point asked "Doesn't this music make you anxious?"

I guess that's true of a lot of prog.

Funnily enough a simple search popped up 4 times in the last 6 months you've called out the Admins. I guess it is your business.

My personal rankings

Domestic Wildlife

We Need New Animals

Tub Gurnard Goodness

8 Definitions

I A Moon

Dronne

North Sea Radio Orchestra

Birds

Songs from Mirage

Roqueforte

Aranis

II

Regarding DAAU, my favourites are all but Life Transmission; but that doesn't help you much.

If you prefer it with drums in it you could go with We Need New Animals, Domestic Wildlife and Eight Definitions.

If I had to single out just one or two personal favourites it would be their self-titled debut and probably Eight Definitions.

But, as said in my first reaction, their reinterpretations of earlier works (and as such a wonderful compilation) on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VG-oo9Mt2k&list=OLAK5uy_kDDW1L5Img7GqWj7sXSzVEd3iri1Xhnfk" rel="nofollow - Hineininterpretierung make fore a great, eclectic and at the same time accessible introduction to their music.

Thanks for mentioning this, went off to check it out, excellent stuff. 

Another good reco, thanks! Keep them coming.

Enslaving mankind may be easier than finding ones way through the genre jungle (and may actually make the latter problem go away very elegantly).