All this to set the context for the topic of this discussion, which is Procol Harum's contribution to progressive rock. How influential do you think PH has been to prog-rock? In which ways were they influential? And (if you don't want to try to answer these questions), which of their songs are most representative of the prog-rock genre in your view (not necessarily your favorites, but the ones you think "cross over" to prog the most)?  For my part, without getting into the reasons why at this stage, I would highlight the following:

A White Shade of Pale

Repent Walpurgus  

Shine on Brightly

In Held 'Twas I

A Salty Dog

Wreck of the Hesperus

Pilgrim's Progress

Whaling Stories

Conquistador (live with Edmonton Philharmonic orchestra)

Fires (which Burn Brightly)               

That Procol Harum didn't dwell on album side-long suites (save for "In Held 'Twas I"), does not negate the progressivity of their compositions. "A Salty Dog" at 4:41 and the titanic "Whaling Stories" at 7:06 do not require 15-20 minutes of noodling around to be prog (or else Genesis' The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway should not be considered prog, considering the majority of the album is filled with 2, 3 and 4 minute songs). Harum is about as sophisticated in their lyrics and compositions as anything released in that time period. This is certainly cemented in Procol Harum Live: In Concert with the Edmonton Symphony Orchestra, which is one of the greatest prog live albums ever released. 

Weirdly The Nice released Ars Longa Vita Brevis the same week as Shine On Brightly and did much the same things that you describe.

Procol were certainly one of the founding fathers along with The Nice, King Crimson and arguably Cream as well who did the 3-peice thing before ELP.

As mentioned above, Live With The Edmonton Philharmonic is one of the very best live albums ever released any genre. Important band. 

Much of their best songs are scattered through the entire catalog (especially from A Salty Dog through Something Magic), but for albums in entirety, favorites are Grand Hotel and Something Magic.

Gary Brooker is one of those highly underrated musicians who hasn't gotten the recognition he deserves.

The line up for the those first two albums reformed as Illusion in 1976. If you like Renaissance, then Illusions work might be worth checking out as well.

A jewel of a band.

Hi,

And it was Keith Relf's band, after he left The Yardbirds. The band also featured his wife singing, and she continued the band later after he passed away. All of those albums could be said to be classically oriented, but had the ability, style and gumption to do its own thing, and it might fir in a discussion of the previously mentioned bands, with the exception that this version of Renaissance, never really got the chance and no many folks even bothered playing their stuff, next to the "hits". It made it a lot easier to see where the music scene was going, and where the fans were being steered into!

As I'm really not interested in post Edmonton era albums (could we call this Harum Mk 2?)I own only three Prool albums:

The debut (with Whiter Shade on it), Shine On and the Edmonton one.

I also have a CDr compilation with the best tracks from the other three Trower era albums.

Tracks I consider full prog:

1. A Salty Dog (4:41)
2. The Milk of Human Kindness (3:47)
7. Wreck of the Hesperus (3:49)
8. All This and More (3:52)
9. Crucifiction Lane (5:03)
2. The Dead Man's Dream (4:46)
5. About To Die (3:35)
6. Barnyard Story (2:46)
8. Whaling Stories (7:06)
1. Simple Sister (5:48)
6. Song For A Dreamer (5:36)
7. Playmate Of The Mouth (5:03)

there might be more "prog" tracks on later albums, but I don't really have the patience for it.

kenethlevine wrote: big fan of the Illusion version of Renaissance (as well as the Haslam version).  Don't forget James McCarty who helped put together the later version.  He also has done a couple of really good solo albums, "Out of the Dark" and "Sitting on the Edge of Time", as well as an album called Renaissance Illusion (classifified with Illusion on PA) in 2001 that sounds like an Illusion album though Jane doesn't sing lead.  Confused yet?

I've always preferred the Ex-Yardbirds Renaissance and Illusion  to the Haslam/Dunford one.

What about "Power Failure", "Pilgrim's Progress" and "Nothing I didn't Know", plus some of the proggy work on "Grand Hotel", such as "Fires which Burned Brightly"?

I know you prefer Jane to Annie, but really, the Annie version of Renaissance is definitely more proggy than the Illusion albums.  I do love both though, but the Annie version has given me so much more in terms of highlights especially in their live performances  

Yeah, you're right. I didn't include these three because I ran out of place in my CDr compilation.

you should get a load of Skip Softly (Moonbeans), though.

yes I forgot about that one, also title cut to "Shine on Brightly".

from a later album, "Mark of the Claw" written by Mick Grabham with great guitar work, is really good too

It's hard for me to single out one group as to why/whynot it is/was a part of the progressive rock development.

In my opinion, they all factored in one way or another, and us making the call if the group is/was progressive, or deserves to be (or not to be) included, is kind of sad, and in so many ways, even sadder when one realizes the immediate punch and appreciation that the group got for being so different and creating something that was so special and helped push the music further, specially in the very fickle, stupid and pathetic AM radio waves in America, where many of these things started and (also) died.

If we look at it within a large poster that has all the groups and their music, we will find that the mole hill becomes a mountain in time, and then, it might fade, or in this case, become something else.

Procol Harum deserves to be mentioned, and should, but because our definitions are YES/GENESIS/ELP related, things like Procol Harum end up in the scrap heap. 

SteveG wrote: Procol never had a true progressive song in my opinion. Even including In Held from the second album, which is string of unrelated but excellent songs. What Procol did was point the way forward for English progressive rock with the combination of their classical themes mixed with rock, as well as song suites. So, they were a type of important forerunner more than a prog prototype.

my original plan when I proposed Harum's inclusion was for Proto-prog along the Moody Blues and The Nice.

I believe both of them spent a couple of months in that category before being moved elsewhere.

my original plan when I proposed Harum's inclusion was for Proto-prog along the Moody Blues and The Nice.

I believe both of them spent a couple of months in that category before being moved elsewhere.

Hi,

I'm not sure that the importance matters, but a couple of things here ... The Nice and The Moody Blues did not quite fit the AM radio band. The Moody Blues big hit was the only one, and even then it was not the same as the album's. The Nice, was NEVER going to get into the "radio" with its highly unusual music work for the time and place, but I'm not sure it did well in America, because there was no station playing their singles to get some public behind it, and "singles" were not a part of the "import" business in those days or in the next 10 years as the LP's took over in the late 60's and 70's and busted the control of American music by the AM Radio stations ... never again were you going to get a major "hit" on the AM band compared to the number of hits in the FM radio band a wee bit later.

Also, perhaps an issue, I can't really say ... I need to re-listen to a lot of The Nice ... is that The Nice was not exactly about a rock song, which I think the next version (ELP) kinda adjusted some in order to get past the one crowd that always came to their shows, but the popular hit crowd was not there. Until "Lucky Man" busted the door, and that made them ready for the pop/rock crowd, which, honestly, I don't think that ELP ever adjusted to it.

As far as "fully realized reason" ... that's harder to say and state since you have to look at the band's full catalogue to make a good/proper distinction. I think, and this is me, that Procol Harum, was not exactly interested in the "epic" thing that was being shown around them, and Gary Brooker/Matthew Fisher wanted to stick to "songs", at which point a few albums later the guitarist decided, that he could do better songs ... on one album only! In the sense of "reason", The Moodies were, as mentioned above "window dressing" and it only took their next album to show how plastic they were becoming and that the poetry, while nice, was actually much doggy doo about nothing! The Nice, worried less about the lyricism, and concentrated on the music and its strength and it did really well for them. I bet they sell more these days than they ever did before ... although I am not sure that many folks can even name a piece of music from them! But it tells you, how much the musicianship was valuable in the long run ... I think that PH lost that musicianship and became just about the songs, and The Moodies became a parody of the whole thing and (FOR ME) were the very first to "wear flowers in your hair" with stuff that "supposedly" was important, never mind the idea! 

I generally agree with you.

TMB's Lost Chord and Threshold were more of psych rock than prog

As for Brooker, he's the only one that wrote or rearranged songs using a symphonic orchezstra usefully

As for Brooker, he's the only one that wrote or rearranged songs using a symphonic orchezstra usefully

Totally agree and I ,more or less, feel the same way about the Moody Blues one of my favorite bands in that they never really struck me as being prog rock and indeed they are here as 'crossover'...

Hi,

The sad thing was that DP HAD TO make sure that the rock group stood out better than the orchestrated stuff ... Easy to tell  you why!!! Very easy! THE FANS wanted the hits and the power songs, and couldn't careless of the smush of the orchestrated stuff that so many fans did not like then and trashed senselessly.

I found it sad, but by that time, the storm of the power of the big sellers having to duplicate themselves with their hits ... and DP was one of these. 

Sadly, they were not, for my ears, very good in concert. When I saw them with Leon Russell, they were out of tune, loud and drunk! I walked out after 20 minutes! I wasn't the only one either!

Purple's Concerto is really laughable in its construction.

I mean even the 13 yo I was (loving In Rock and Taliesin) could see how much an embarassment it was.

I remember reading in the liner notes that some violonist spoke out loud about working on some stupid project with second-rate Beatles, and Lord was crying. I hate to say it, but she was right.

TBH, outside the great Sarabande, I was never convinced a single second with Lord's solo classical wannabe trip.

I think In Held Twas In I should be an influence because although it is many songs linked, it was something common in later prog (Rush epics, Supper's Ready, Trakus, etc), and it is probably the first "side long" song from a famous band that was not just a bit jam with a solo of each instrument, but the lack of direct connection (these songs became more common years later, not soon after Shine On Brightly release and Procol Harum never did the same again) doesn't make it so likely.

ah-hummmmmm!!!!....

Something Magic escapes you, then.

Absolutely laughable TW&TT suite (the rest of the album is pityful as well), but just reading the movements  is making you think of Tarkus

6. The Worm And The Tree (18:35) :
- Part one: Introduction / Menace / Occupation
- Part two: Enervation / Expectency / Battle
- Part three: Regeneration / Epilogue

Hi,

I'm not sure that I would consider these things "prog", since they all preceded the whole thing. When looking at the time factor in this history, we (I think) need to be more careful about calling this progressive, or prog, before it actually it came to be. 

Let's just say that they were the children that helped create "prog".

And this kind of historical understanding, is the part that hurts the definition of "progressive music" since it completely ignores the history of most music, and folks today, have a tendency to blend everything without the history ... and all it does is make a mess of all the comments and ideas.

Hi,

I'm not sure that this is possible since the site and the voting is by a lot of people simply giving a token to their favorite bands, and (for the most part) has nothing to do with the music, not to mention that many of those folks won't bother listening to it, in the same LIKE MANNER THEY DO THEIR FAVORITES. Until this happens, the chance of many of these bands on the edge, will not have a chance to be seen as part of the evolution of the music.

I'm not convinced, or sure, that a top ten voter, is really interested in the history of it all anyway ... but that's another story!

Philchem8 wrote: ... Some bands and songs can be said to be more representative generally of prog rock, but only to a degree and only in comparison with other bands and songs, because in my view, there is no static, definite and overriding definition of what prog-rock is. ...

Therein lies the issue with the "definition" and the folks that "invented" it. They basically created something that fit their "favorites" and never considered the history and the development of the genre, as if there never was before a guitarist that went nuts like Steve, or a keyboard player that went nuts, or a bass player that went ballistic on notes, and so forth ... only someone who refuses to listen to many others in the history would think that and create such an incredible definition that is not what the music is about, specially with its emphasis on the early days, on being "different" and anti hit radio, some of the factors completely ignored in the definition, thus making it a very bad, and specially so musically, recipe for the worst soup ever made!

Philchem8 wrote: ... That said, I would not go as far as arguing that The Beatles were prog-rock, even though they did also contribute importantly to the genre.  ...

None of us would, however, when we hear side 2 of Abbey Road, that is by very far way more progressive than so many of the bands we hear that it makes the whole thing bizarre and silly. AND, when one factors in how each song they made in their last 3 or 4 albums is so different than anything else being done, in many ways, they deserve an honorable mention for their creativity, something that most progressive and prog bands these days do not have beyond a slightly different sound effect, and then follow the same format for almost everything they do. I can't help thinking that even considering many of these "prog" or "progressive" is a travesty!

PS: Somewhat apart from the main topic, but on topic.

I kinda think that the folks making the decisions for what "progressive" and "prog" has been defined with, were folks that never heard the free form things in the late 60's and how it influenced the top bunch that we have in our lists. It was the freedom of expression that gave us something that we had not heard before, so I (jokingly) say that these folks never had the chance to enjoy an evening at the Fillmore ... so they could hear more music, than their popmusik idea of what the definition really is. I can't help hearing one man, whose lyrics and style should be a part of "progressive", Mr. Bob Dylan ... say it again ... that you gotta get stoned. But with the synthetic dope these days, I don't think anyone will ever have that feel or understanding of music and its place as a very strong movable object in our lives. Top tens come and go, and the same folks will quit on it, and tomorrow their children will vote 5 other bands to the top, and laugh at our childish choices. Had we understood history and the music evolution, I think that this attitude of those kids would end up like the punk scene. Lasted a day and a half!

As you can see from my nick....

 The whole premise of the ops post , seems based on a falsehood.

 "Procol Harum is not usually thought of as one of the top classic prog-rock bands, and not everyone would agree that their music is really representative of progressive rock in general."

  If I was the op, I'd get an mri and check for abnormalities.   

  My dude, I was THERE , when it all happened.  Trust me , it was prog,  THE PROG.

  Not even sure the sands of time are an excuse for blowing this call so badly .

Thanks for the advice, I did get an MRI after reading your post, and it seems that all is normal .  So I still stand by my contention. However, if you read my initial and subsequent posts on this thread, I think it should be evident that I also consider Procol Harum to be an important progressive-rock band, even though I do not think that all of their music fit within this genre. 

What I was saying is that they are not usually "thought of" (by others, not me) "as one of the top classic prog-rock bands", and there I think there is a much to support this perception of mine. In fact, what partly drove me to initiate this discussion was a look at the list of the 100 Greatest Prog-Rock Artists of All Time, as voted by Prog Magazine readers a few years ago (you can see the list on the web), where PH does not even figure at all. As Procol Harum is actually more well known than many of the bands on that list, I thought that the fact that they did not appear on the list may be because some or many people do not consider them to fit into their perception of what "prog-rock" is. Interestingly, PH did make the Top 50 Prog Rock Artists list put together by Ultimate Classic Rock, but at #45, behind a number of lesser known artists. In that list, there is a quote by Gary Brooker that is relevant here: 

“I don’t think Procol has ever fit into a particular pigeonhole, as we call them here, you know, in the filing cabinet,” Brooker told  https://vintagerock.com/the-gary-brooker-interview-2019/" rel="nofollow - Vintage Rock . “You don’t really know what to put them under. They come under ‘P’ — ‘Progressive?’ ‘Psychedelic?’ — and I say, ‘They come under ‘P,’ and ‘P’ is for ‘Procol.’”
  

Furthermore, if you read all the comments on this thread, you'll see that there are some people who consider PH to be prog-rock, while there are others who do not. 

So I think that the question of whether Procol Harum is an important progressive rock band or not is clearly not something on which there is universal agreement on, and there are in fact plenty of differing opinions, which is precisely what made this discussion thread relevant and interesting. I don't think anyone is right or wrong here, it's just a question of opinion and how well it is supported, based one's perception of what prog-rock is and how PH's music fits into it...or not. What emerged from this discussion though is that almost everyone thought that PH was quite important in influencing the development of prog-rock and paving the way for subsequent bands.     

    PH invented much of what is today considered classic prog.

    Shine on Brightly and Salty Dog alone are two of the greatest prog albums ever.  Both in the top 10 .

    Grand Hotel , another masterpiece.

    They experimented  with many styles over the years. Some very prog, some not so much.

    If there was a top 100 list that didn't include PH in the top 10 (top 5 would have been my vote)  , then it must have been a parody of some kind.  Or maybe Gary Brooker  did the wife of the editor, and that was his revenge.    (r.i.p. Gary)

   I've spent the over a half century  enjoying the music of Procol Harum.   And not stopping any time soon.