What interview? There are a lot of them on YT recently.............His love of ABBA is not sudden. If he once liked Genesis (or any other band for that matter), why is it negative that he does not like them now? Is he not allowed to change his mind or like something different??

Just asking....... 

Dont worry, give it a few years and he'll grow his hair longer again (it'll be properly grey by then), wear tie-dye T shirts and say how great early Pink Floyd and 60's Psychedelia is... 

It does not bother me, other than if the comment was coming from the view of a "prog only music" perspective. Like "how dare he like ABBA or Prince and dis Genesis!!"

I like what SW has been doing lately so no skin off my back...

And how do you know how people listen/move to symphonic prog?

I've danced around to a Gentle Giant song lol. And yes I also like Abba, is all of that illegal in the prog realm or something??

Nobody can ruin prog, but trust me I know exactly your sentiment here.

Wilson continues to prove all my assumptions about his personality correct, without fail.

His new music sucks and I think it's a perfect, and logical, reflection of his attitude TBQH.

twosteves wrote: his commercial music isn't going anywhere---Peter G got lucky with one album and it was fantastic ---he needs to stop listening and worrying about other peoples music (which his music very often sounds like)  and make what he wants to make--but it isn't commercial...and it won't have an effect on the music industry like Genesis-Abba and PG did.

Have you heard the interview? He's basically saying the opposite. He pisses off some of his old fanbase by actually doing what he wants to do. He also says (not 100% sure whether that's true) that his prog albums catering for those fans were commercially most successful. Sure he cares about other people's music but this is because he is a music lover, and I think he is genuine. This doesn't make me appreciate his last few albums more though, but that's personal on my behalf. I surely buy that he is authentic about what he's doing, I mean as authentic as a guy like him can be.

You're blaming his wife for his recent album? And for his insulting prog fans??  

SteveG wrote:   Or he may like to have some commercial success.

I don't think this makes much sense (of course you're not claiming it directly, but others have done so). His prog work was in fact quite commercially successful, and surely it isn't predictable that moving to more poppy music will bring better sales if you're well established in a different community. People can think of his latest albums whatever they want (and I'm not a fan), but this idea that people go away from prog not because they genuinely and for musical reasons want to do something else but rather in order to be commercially successful doesn't hold water for me. For every Genesis there are five examples where this failed miserably. I think people should stop thinking that Wilson went this direction in order to make money.

I doubt any wife is solely to blame, especially when you factor in years of frustration and bitterness within any given band. 

If anything, the wife is usually the sacrificial lamb. The easy target. The one person everyone can point to and blame because she, "said that annoying thing one time" so they don't have to blame one another.

^ It is clear that you - and apparently some others here - have not listened to the interview. He is not insulting his fans, nor Genesis, nor putting Abba on a pedestal. He's just saying that there is very good and sophisticated pop music out there (citing The Beatles and Abba...) and that he cannot relate to people who dismiss pop because it is pop. In the same way he can not engage with people (e.g. prog fans) who dismiss his music when it is not prog enough. That seams to me a very sane stance that every artist should take. He does what he wants to do: making music (be it prog or not).

I listened to his new album. To my ears it is rather forgettable, although one song stands out: Personal Shopper - it has an interesting Frankie Goes To Hollywood-vibe over it...

Which maybe points to something why I don't like much of his music: for me it is often a mix of styles and music that I've heard before - it lacks originality. I could never relate to PT or his solo albums. Actually, in my opinion, Steven Wilson has done his most original work with Tim Bowness under the No-Man monniker - there are a couple of No-Man albums that I really enjoy. Not always very proggy, but who cares...

Hi,

I have thought before that his liking some "pop music" is more about creating new material that has the usual "slick" style of a lot of pop music, which he might feel that a lot of his material (early?) probably lacked that slick'ness and cleanliness that he might have liked. The stuff he is doing now, to me, looks like an "experiment" to see how his sensibility will end up fitting into what he does ... it will probably mean that a lot of his music might reach the "prog" area, but it will have elements of "pop music". 

I have no issue with his comments about fans, and how abusive and stuck up they can be because their "favorite artist" made an album they did not like ... and when he says he doesn't have time for some people ... I'm betting that a good 90% of musicians have to say that ... !!! 

The social media aspect of the music is hurting artists and their artistry ... everyone is a critic and every one hates something and everyone likes something ... and the comments, are not (always) about the music itself ... they are just a personal choice ... which should NOT interfere with the music or the artist ... but a lot of socialistic folks don't see that at all ... 

Everyone has a right to say something, but in this day and age, there is excuse for saying something bad about someone, and instead just say forget it, and GO LISTEN TO SOMETHING ELSE!

Why are you getting so upset over this?

I just said it was a bit much to blame wives for breaking up a band, that's all mate...whether you agree or not, there was no need to bite my head off like that. Kind of weird..

<3 that comment. Perfectly encapsulates my assumptions on Steven Wilson dating back to 2004 or so

Alan Niven's then wife was in an affair with Great White's Jack Russell when Al wrote Love Is A Lie, sensing that his wife was going to leave him, but not knowing who she was leaving him for, not knowing that it was the guy mouthing his own lyrics.  Imagine Jack singing Love Is A Lie with a straight face, likely knowing what it was about. And he sang it with a lot of feeling too. 

Yeah, what good pop there is doesn't set the charts on fire anymore.  Lianne La Havas' s/t was beautiful and exactly the sort of album that is not going to go 'viral'. Tastes have been ruined beyond repair at this point by 'loudness', autotune and the Amy Winehouse staccato.

Kind of a complainer/whiner vibe.  And is hilariously close minded about 80s guitar. 

It's a good question but you can't ask a prog website what is good pop!!  The better question is what pop albums are popular right now, cause I don't really know how to define "good" in music, with the Grammy's coming up soon there you will see what the industry considers "good" music.

I could not see TFB being in this list of popular albums, as I have said many times I really don't think it is a pop album, maybe a couple songs if you stretch really hard, but it's more electronic alternative rock music. Is it prog music, not really but SW direction, like it or not is a progressive movement, away from his previous styles or writing (and playing). This album is really his closest to a true "solo" album, since he plays many of the instruments, Mike Oldfield comes to mind as well does Prince. Prince played almost all of the instruments on many of his albums but he's never been considered a true solo artist as there are songs that he used either other musicians or The Revolution to record.

A perfect Englishman in other words. 

Yeah I gotta agree this hyper defensive reaction is honestly bizarre and this whole thread is full of irrational anger towards someone who doesn't owe any of us anything. The whole "its probably his wifes fault" thing is the most abysmal neckbeard deskchair manchild showcase of toxic masculinity I think i've ever seen.  

Well..I have no faith that the Grammy people would recognize 'good pop'. I think Zappa said once that most wouldn't know good rock music if it bit them in the ass.  

I don't hear 'pop rock' either when listening to Wilson's new lp. 

I don't listen to the current pop charts so I honestly have no idea what will even be nominated at the Grammy's.

98% hip-hop/rap music 2% country.......I'm sure I'm wrong but not by much 

Hi,

Well ... I'm not sure I could consider a lot of the Beatles ... "bad pop" .... and a lot of the stuff that "started" getting big in '66/'67 and '68, was (for the most part) pop music that was played in the AM radio in America and competed with the "hits" ... and often won!

I'm wondering if we have decided to get back to semantics, and if so, we will have to update the progressive and prog wording, because a lot of the new stuff, including metal ... is "pop" ... same format and design, just louder!  

The list...sorry about the link...I never can get links to work...is it this forum's tools or what...?

www.grammy.com/grammys/news/2021-grammys-complete-nominees-list#1

I don't own a single lp by anyone on the lists......and it is mostly rap, hip hop, and some country..even the rock.pop  categories dont' sound like rock musicians to me. 

So we have the R and R Hall of Shame not inducting Tull, Moody Blues, Iron Maiden, Dire Straits and the Grammy's basically becoming a rap/hip hop fest...

SteveG wrote: I've seen a few wives break up bands, so it's possible.

No I don't own any albums on this list, nor have I heard any of them to my knowledge. Two things I noticed, the Grammy's have as many genre/sub-genres as PA does , and I am trying to figure out what is "Best Progressive R&B Album" ??

Blacksword wrote: I always felt him to be a bit of a bore and a bit up himself to be honest.

If he were such a bore, probably people wouldn't get that worked up about his interviews...

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm saying she might have influenced him. Who knows?

I wouldn't say Steven Wilson is as adventurous as Radiohead. I wouldn't say Steven Wilson is adventurous as David Bowie's last three albums. Nonetheless I don't think you can take away that Future Bites is a well put together album which has plenty to enjoy about it. What it isn't is that it's not that proggy. Does it matter to people? Doesn't really matter to me.

So he's a "bore" and "having an (interesting) personality is not his strong point"...  so what are your criteria for rating a personality then? I have seen and read loads of less interesting interviews by prog musicians than what he usually has to say, and whose personality entertains you better (except for all the wrong reasons)?

And apart from that, he's a musician, so why do you even care whether his personality is "interesting"?

Hi,

I think this is more of a compliment to the fact that rap/hip-hop is probably the best selling of any kind of material out there ... and as such, it is "worthy" of its nomination. I suppose that a lot of us wonder if some of it can even be considered "music", but since when were these things and awards about music? It was about how much money they made for the bosses!

To make sure the "Grammys" don't get attention, don't comment on it, or type on it ... let it die, when they find that no one cares or notices them anymore. Any single comment is like "one more hit" to their numbers that they are checked out! We still go into these comments without really knowing what advertising is really all about and how so many companies get their money ... and let me tell you that they don't care about our comments when we gave them another hit to improve their numbers! 

Way back when, it was called the deep th..ro..at affair ... when churches and social groups could not keep their mouths shut and made a lousy movie sell millions and start the video tape revolution ... it was, really, a fitting resolve ... but in the end, we still don't know what advertising is all about in the 21st Century!

Sure. Though anyone who supposes that it isn't music is incorrect. Just because you don't like it or because it isn't recorded in the same way doesn't disqualify it from being music. Every genre has artists that are popular but sort of lack integrity, and I certainly don't like most of what I hear is that "popular" today. But to say all music of one genre is like that shows an ignorance to explore by the listener (if you can call them all that, since many are not really listening).

I'm not accusing you of that based on your comment, more just bouncing off of what you said about some members "wondering if it can be considered music." I wouldn't even give them the bait to say "there now, SOMEONE who gets it." I tire of this. Shed the elitism everyone. You don't have to like it (I don't). You don't even have to respect all of it (though some of it you should). But it's music. 

Hi,

I imagine that my sensibility about "music" is something that is much more than a beat and just words ... and would otherwise feature "instruments" rather than just "voice". I have no feeling about rap/hip-hop either way, and there are some folks that know how to use their words, but (in general) for me, it's less about what I/we would consider "music" as defined in the annals of "music" ... than what is being given us. That's not to say that there are not several folks that are very good with it ... however, I still see "music" with a variety of instruments, not just a beat.

(... and we're stuck in a "beat" era and then some!!!)

This is the exact kind of pretentious attitude I'm talking about. Regardless of how it makes you feel, rap and hip-hop are diverse genres of music, just like others. Just like, say, rock, you have artists, sub-genres, and scenes with musical and lyrical artistry, integrity, and talent, AND you have mindless slop made for a quick buck. Most umbrella genres have their gold and their trash. And one person's trash could be another's gold. You don't have to like it, but why should it be excluded from a MUSIC awards show? This attitude confuses me so much in its regressiveness and ignorance.

The part that I DO agree with Mosh on is why we even have to mention the Grammys. No music lover should really take that corporate w**k-fest seriously. If you're looking to the Shammys to understand what certain music scenes/genres are really all about, then maybe I do understand the apprehension. All it shows you is what people who probably don't really care that much about music will listen to on the radio or on their streaming site pre-made playlists. If an album sells, it wins a Spammy.

Where's Doug? I need my hero.

I actually don't care one jot which is why I will but his records. I also don't care about his view for modern prog and I will enjoy and appreciate what I damn well like! I don't fret too much over what musicians have to say and can quite happily enjoy their music without knowing what their views on the world is. It's no secret that my favourite musician is Keith Emerson, Interesting stage performer , not very interesting character on the quiet. He had a pet parrot and that was it I suspect. However in his defence he was quite prepared to champion modern musicians and didn't seem to be quite as arrogant a prat that Steven is (god bless the ground he walks on lol)

Apparently it got to number 4 in the UK which is pretty good but one less than his previous album.

My opinion on the TFB has changed as I've just found out that my wife's cousin played on it. 

I mean integrity of Grammys to keep reggaeton out, wut?

The irony is Wilson isn't even using hardcore hip hop on here.  It's just the regular sort of vocal effects you hear in EDM.  

Props for naming Tyler the Creator.  Love his Igor album.  People should seriously check it out rather than feeling so threatened by it.  Most of it is actually singing, he doesn't bombard rapping all over it all.  And the production is beautiful.  Like it better than the TransAtl/Dream Theater/side projects production, thank you very much. 

Bro, rap like Tyler sucks, Cinderella, Poison is REAL music, REAL rock n roll with integrity.   Oh, and don't forget Nickelback and Creed.

Yeah dude Igor kicks ass, love that record, probably one of my top 3 of 2019 honestly

I know you haven't said it, but I often see that argument brought up to describe why Hip Hop isn't music, for apparently checking only one of those boxes. But the thing is.... it's just.... incorrect. Almost every hip hop song i've ever heard is full of melody and harmony, especially in the hooks and instrumentals.

Grumpyprogfan wrote: Yes. For me, music has to have rhythm, melody, and harmony. Acepella is only one out of three.

Music has to have sound, sound, and sound. That's more than enough.

What if he's not trying to make music to hit the top of the charts? Just making the music he wants to make at that point in time.

It's easier for him to get higher up with prog because that's what he's best at and the competition is way smaller than for pop. The competition in popular music is vast compared to prog. It may the be same list, but you stand a better chance with great prog than OK pop.

I listen to old skool rap, not the kRAP from today  I think if some of these newer rap singers would go back and listen to the old stuff they might wake up a bit. I can't be lumped into your category, late 70s early 80s I was listening to rap. Once gansta-rap came on hard (NWA, Public Enemy) that's when I ended my experiment...But I still listen to GrandMaster Flash & Furious 5/Run DMC/Kurtis Blow/SugarHill....

I think a lot of members might find something to enjoy in the Experimental Hip Hop or Abstract Hip Hop vein, it's pretty much prog rap if you ask me.

Hence musique concrète.

Ultimately music is made by the listener in the brain. It's pretty meaningless to discuss whether something is "really" music or not.

"Open your ears and listen"

https://frameworkradio.net/" rel="nofollow - https://frameworkradio.net/

Awesoreno wrote: ^Intention by the artists is an important signifier. It's like framing in painting or sketching.

Ultimately this thread is not the right place to have that discussion, I'd say. I'm well aware that what I'm saying can be quite controversial. Obviously I'm giving you statements but not arguments here and of course nobody has to buy that. In another forum I have the signature "The opposite is also true".

I'd be happy to expand and exchange though if somebody gives this discussion its own home.