Should Bowie be moved to Crossover Prog?
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Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122821
Printed Date: November 27 2024 at 13:59
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Topic: Should Bowie be moved to Crossover Prog?
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Subject: Should Bowie be moved to Crossover Prog?
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 08:57
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I think the album Blackstar alone warrants this movement. That is a truly progressive album but regardless of that, he was making progressive music throughout most of his career imo. I feel like if Peter Gabriel solo has a place in crossover prog, there's no reason Bowie doesn't. I would like others thoughts, I know i'm not putting up the strongest argument but with prog I find it hard to define, but I know it when I hear it. ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Replies:
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 09:21
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Don't think it's possible to switch genres unless an artist is deleted and readded. Ain't gonna happen. He's here. Good enough. The overwhelming vast majority of his works is glam rock so I'd vote no -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 09:31
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Peter Gabriel was moved from Prog Related to Crossover Prog http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41919&KW=Gabriel+Crossover&PID=2641066#2641066" rel="nofollow - more than 12 years ago . I think PG is a case of doubt, but Bowie is not.
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 09:56
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Many bands/artists have been switched between categories before. I'd be fine with Bowie in Crossover or Prog Related. I'm just glad he in, period. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 10:11
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Is majority a factor though? I feel like there are several artists with maybe one or two albums falling into the prog category with the rest of their discography being in another non prog genre. ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 10:28
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General opinion matters (if most people support the move then it would be more likely -- a move consensus would help bolster the case), but the Crossover Team and the Admin Team (of which I recently left) would have to agree to the move. I think Bowie had various album that could fit Crossover (I'd include the Berlin trilogy), and various music off of albums that could fit, such as "Aladdin Sane" and "Cygnet Committee". That said, for me he fits Prog Related well, and there are a significant number of albums in that category by different acts that I consider to be Prog, or Prog category worthy. He is a sort of Art Rock/ Art Pop artist, and we used to have an Art Rock category -- it was split into Crossover, Eclectic Prog and Heavy Prog, not that that is important to mention. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 12:00
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I wonder, how come the Art Rock category was split? Too big? |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 12:11
------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
The Anders wrote:Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 13:45
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Yes, Blackstar is probably my fave Bowie album, but I'm fine where he is now. |
Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 13:59
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lol no ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 14:19
Why not? Is blackstar not a prog album? ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 14:58
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I'm glad he's here, in PA, as I am for Queen and Led Zeppelin and Jimi Hendrix and Miles Davis and The Talking Heads as I think all of their work inspired prog artists to try slightly different things, or to come from different centers. But I do not think of Bowie's music as proggy. He was an artist, a performance artist for a long time, a man who loved to challenge accepted boundaries and who loved to push himself and reinvent himself, but I really don't think of his music as progressive or progressive rock (except maybe to him). He created songs to contain and deliver his ideas, his lyrics. When I generalize and think of most prog artists' songs, I feel as if they can/could stand on their own with or without lyrics. I do not feel this way about Bowie's music. ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 15:10
That's an interesting perspesctive. Prog does seem more based on the music rather than the lyrics for sure. Even "Blackstar" is progressive pop, jazz-rock, experimental rock etc but not progressive rock. Personally i think prog related is the BEST place for him. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 15:24
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David Bowie was progressive, but he was not "progressive"... As for Crossover Prog, I read it refers to "progressive rock music that, though 100% progressive, may have a musical connection to popular music". I'm not sure if David Bowie really fits in here. His music was progressive in the sense that it was forward thinking, cutting edge, breaking new ground, combining style elements in new ways and so on, besides he progressed a lot as a musician by always trying out new musical ideas. But I'd say his music it's not progressive in the sense of 'prog' (perhaps with the exception of the Berlin trilogy and Blackstar). If Crossover Prog is prog artists who cross over to the mainstream, I would rather think it's the other way around with David Bowie. So I think Prog-related makes more sense as I see it.
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Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 15:35
Yeah, I agree. I never thought of David Bowie as Crossover Prog. Even at his most arty, he seems to me to be firmly rooted in pop. He definitely belongs on this site, but under Prog Related. Interestingly, by being listed under Prog Related, Blackstar is rated as "Essential: a masterpiece of rock music" and not just "Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music". ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 15:49
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^ however may not apply to neo-prog which seems like the lyrics are as important as the music. Just generalizations of course. ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 16:42
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Bowie has never.. even by his biggest fans been considered a genius lyricist..he was no Donald Fagen haha. In fact take a great many of his songs. Not particularly straightforward .. and in that he shares the obtuse proclivities of most prog lyricists. but what Bowie has been considered.. by fans.. and pretty much everyone.. is a musical genius. Utterly and completely progressive.. but prog? Nope.. he in fact is the best example of transcending Prog. He.. like Floyd and to a lesser extent.. Tull.. were so much more than just a prog artist. You can not pigeonhole him in to a genre.. much less a specific section of one...and that is why Dean and I (as big of fans we are of him) thought Prog Related was the best place for him. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 16:52
 you honor me.. but while it was my brain child..perhaps first among equals and pushing hard to create the team and get us rolling.. give credit where it was due. It took the best group of collabs (Chus helping me with Xover, Dave and Raff getting hard and heavy, and Victor and Greg doing the eclectic thing) this site ever saw to go through each and every single damned one of those 900 odd groups and evaluate them and separate them.it says a lot about what we did with ISP/RPI and the blood we had to shed to make that happen that what we did with AR was only my 2nd proudest accomplishment here. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 18:33
I'd go with crossover considering the arc of his career  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 06:39
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Hi, This is the main reason why I think that we should "redo" the whole concept of "progressive" and take it away from the album ... it all should be about the ARTIST ... and then we could easily say that this band belongs in this area, and not in the more serious one, because they are inconsistent with their "progressive" design ... and the next album is something else. I would consider DB more "adventurous" with his music, than "progressive", but he is not one artist I would spend time discussing or vote on in any situation ... too many things go separate ways ... I think he wanted to do "progressive" but he knew that it would likely cut down his short songs, and force him to do things a bit longer than otherwise ... and EF's comments in his book about what he stated to DB is major ... he liked the music flow so he could improvise, and essentially DB's music did not provide that for him, and he ended up declining to play in DB's album. EF would have had too short a bit on DB's song, which would be the primary/priority in the whole thing, and EF I don't think worried about priority or primary in his own music ... it was all about the flow and if guitar fit well, he used it! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 07:13
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Who is EF, Elmer Fudd? -------------  
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 07:35
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^ is that what he calls the voices in his head. OK? Whatever man... that would make sense in a Pedro way. At least as much sense as his post did. At least the voice in my head doesn't try talking music.. Sheena with her mangled German accented english has one hell of sexy voice and she talks to me all the time and sure as sh*t not about music.. umm hmmm it is a reason I go through my days with a big ass smile on my face.
 ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 15:05
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David Bowie should have his own genre. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 20:19
by the time I added him I had already created 4 subgenres here.. I was on fumes by then almost reaching the burnout that led to years long vacation from the site... so we phoned him in to PR...out but knowing my history.. it was definitely discussed The best part in hindsight with putting Bowie where we did was not having the Miles Davis effect on whatever sub-genre we would have jammed him into.. Brian mentioned career arc earlier but in my mind that misses the boat about Bowie.. there was nothing linear about him or his music.------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 27 2020 at 13:41
Hi, Your knowledge of music and the postings here, as well as the history of DB in Berlin, is astounding. EF is Edgar Froese, from Tangerine Dream that rehearsed several times with DB, but came to the conclusion that what DB was doing was not for him at all ... it's on his book about TD. In fact, one of the lnocks on the book is that there is "too much" about DB ... but you learn a thing or two about how he worked! ... well, and Micky's comments seem to show that he drank too much and had way too much sex last night to remember anything!
 ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: April 28 2020 at 10:44
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Absolutely not. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: April 28 2020 at 11:06
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Only if crossover refers to artists who are no longer living in this physical world! ------------- https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: April 28 2020 at 19:08
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Shawn Phillips is more proggy than Bowie (and than Steely Dan etc.) and he sits in the Prog-related category. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 29 2020 at 07:55
Hi, Logic man ... LOGIC.  You're making me think that some of the decisions made many of the choices actually make sense!!!!! Again, this is the perfect reason why these divisions should be about the artist, NOT THE ALBUM. DB is not always "progressive" in most albums, although at times, it comes off as art rock, and then it comes off as rock with the biggest finger in the sky possible!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 29 2020 at 08:42
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Who cares what slot he is in? This PA proclivity for splitting hairs is one of the least endearing activities of this site. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: April 29 2020 at 18:55
 ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 29 2020 at 19:47
can't really say I agree with you there.. perhaps if one is in the market for a boring forum. It has proven to be one of the most entertaining aspects... you don't see it much anymore as this site has slipped into its dotage but was the undercurrent to the chaos and bloodshed of the glory days when we were building the database. People really did lose their sh*t about those hairs. If an artist got put where someone didn't like... the fur flew man.. and god help them if the site added an artist they didn't think was prog... oh boy...cattle were raped and the womanfolk stampeded...wooo hooo!!! Guns were drawn and knifes were not just drawn.. but used. The admins did little but hose the pavement down every evening. I don't recall you getting too much into it.. what a waste of talent. you are one of the few I've seen here that has the quick draw and sharp wit with a certain flair for viciousness that made those that did.. PA's legend back then haha. good times.. perhaps you had to be in the thick of it a we were(ie having those guns and knives drawn on you ) to appreciate the joy of blowing someone's cyber head off who crosses you.. but at one time we had a lot of people here who really knew music, not just knew what they liked.. and were passionate about prog and really got rubbed the wrong ways about additions/genre placements they didn't agree with anyhow wasn't much said from the gen pop either way about Bowie. Most instinctual knew he belonged here and again I think most would have been at a loss to have found a natural fit for him.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 30 2020 at 03:07
Yep, like watching bald men fighting over a comb. ------------- 
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Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: April 30 2020 at 04:32
Hey now, gimme some credit, I still have a few more years of this full head of hair! ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 01 2020 at 08:33
Hi, Goodness ... 69 and counting and my hair still grows all over my face and I have to trim it and shave now and then! What a hassle that is, hey? But, honestly, to comment on DE's line, the issue is not so much splitting hairs as it is the concept of doing this about ALBUMS and not ARTIST ... too many of these "artists' change from album to album and what might be prog in one is MOR in the other and DB is a very good example of this for the early days in FM ... longer cuts that resembled prog, but were merely longer songs that would not be considered "prog" ... I hardly think Spiders from Mars is progressive ... just a damn good rock album!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 01 2020 at 10:24
(To paraphrase Dean) You can roll a turd in glitter but it's still a turd -------------
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: May 01 2020 at 11:59
To quote early American politician John Randolph, ''like a rotten mackerel in the moonlight, he both shines and stinks.''
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: May 01 2020 at 15:43
Made my day -------------
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 02 2020 at 08:38
Hi, We need a new thread for quotes ... nice one there DE ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: May 02 2020 at 09:02
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"Even if it's a witty, singing and dancing turd, it's still a turd" (Stephen King, "Sleeping Beauties"). "That which we call a turd by any other name would smell as sh*te" (Logan, "Guano and Manuret"). My favourite joke: What's brown and sounds like a bell? Dunggg! Moving this topic from Brownie back to Bowie. A case could be made for Bowie in Crossdresser Prog. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts |