Why does everyone hate The Battle Of Epping Forest
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122784
Printed Date: December 04 2024 at 20:14
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Why does everyone hate The Battle Of Epping Forest
Posted By: softandwet
Subject: Why does everyone hate The Battle Of Epping Forest
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 11:14
|
I don't understand this hatred, for me it sounds like a tiny Supper's Ready, so what's the deal? ------------- So don’t evade the surgeon’s blade Cos the answer could be in your mind Maybe one cut and we’ll find We’re just a wavelength behind But we are entwined And I know what you need |
Replies:
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 11:25
 ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 11:29
Not everybody does hate it. Many people like it, hence the very high reviews on average for the album as a whole. However, to compare it as a mini Supper’s Ready is taking the love a tad too far, methinks  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
softandwet wrote:Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 11:31
where did you get the idea that everyone hates the song? Some people dislike it. In the interview for the reissue of SETB, even Rutherford and Banks complained about it. But in other interviews they were proud of their 80s work, so what do I know?!
|
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 14:37
|
East-end (London) gangland just ain't a comfortable milieu for public schoolboys ------------- 
|
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 15:07
|
I don't know of any hate towards it, but maybe I have missed something. As for me personally, I do like it to some extent, but I think it is rather overblown. And then there are the theatrical voices in some parts of the song which I find quite irritating.
|
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 15:10
|
I don't hate it I just think it's kind of sloppy. :) I actually don't mind listening to it and find it a fun listen when in the right mood but unfortunately it's the weakest link on the album.
|
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 15:25
|
Good question, I mean, that’s literally progressive music right there. ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: Chaser
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 16:24
|
I don't hate it either. It's a fun track with good musicianship in typical Genesis style. If you don't like this track then I don't think classic 70's Genesis is for you, as this one is bang on. ------------- Songs cast a light on you |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 16:41
|
I don't hate it, but it isn't a favorite. Definitely weighed down the album for my on my first many listens. It just doesn't gel very well and it goes on not gelling for 11 minutes in the middle of the album. The lyrics are fun, but it really is one of those cases where Tony might have been right about Gabriel tossing way too many words over his beautiful instrumental. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 16:46
|
Yep, it's very verbose. I just pulled the lyrics from online and if you compare it to the other songs on the album it probably has at least tiwce as many lyrics. Lyrics
(Taken from a news story concerning two rival gangs fighting Over East-End Protection rights) Along the Forest Road, there's hundreds of cars - luxury cars. Each has got its load of convertible bars, cutlery cars - superscars! For today is the day when they sort it out, sort it out, 'cause they disagree on a gangland boundary. Yes, they disagree on a gangland boundary. There's Willy Wright and his boys - One helluva noise, that's Billy's boys! With fully-fashioned mugs, that's Little John's thugs, The Barking Slugs - supersmugs! For today is the day when they sort it out, sort it out, These Christian soldiers fight to protect the poor. East end heroes got to score in... The Battle of Epping Forest, It's the Battle of Epping Forest, Right outside your door. You ain't seen nothing like it. No, you ain't seen nothing like it, Not since the Civil War. Coming over the hill are the boys of Bill, And Johnny's lads stand very still. With the thumpire's shout, they all start to clout - there's no guns in this gentleman's bout. Georgie moves in on the outside left With a chain flying round his head; And Harold Demure, from Art Literature, Nips up the nearest tree. (Here come the cavalry!) Admidst the battle roar, Accountants keep the score: 10-4. They've never been alone, after getting a radiophone. The bluebells are ringing for Sweetmeal Sam, real ham, Handing out bread and jam just like any picnic. It's 5-4 on William Wright; he made his pile on Derby night. When Billy was a kid, walking the streets, The other kids hid - so they did! Now, after working hard in security trade, he's got it made. The shops that need aid are those that haven't paid. "I do my double-show quick!" said Mick the Prick, fresh out the nick. "I sell cheap holiday. The minute they leave, Then a visit I pay - and does it pay!" And his friend, Liquid Len by name, Of Wine, Women and Wandsworth fame, Said "I'm breaking the legs of the b*****d that got me framded!" They called me the Reverend when I entered the Church unstained; My employers have changed but the name has remained. It all began when I went on a tour, Hoping to find some furniture. I followed a sign - it said "Beautiful Chest". It led to a lady who showed me her best. She was taken by surprise when I quickly closed my eyes. So she rang the bell, and quick as hell Bob the Nob came out on his job To see what the trouble was. "Louise, is the Reverend hard to please?" "You're telling me!" "Perhaps, sir, if it's not too late. We could interest you in our Staffordshire plate?" "Oh no, not me, I'm a man of repute." But the Devil caught hold of my soul and a voice called out "Shoot!" To save my steeple, I visited people; For this I'd gone when I met Little John. His name came, I understood, When the judge said "You're a robbing hood." He told me of his strange foundation, Conceived on sight of the Woodstock nation; He'd had to hide his reputation. When poor, 'twas salvation from door to door. But now, with a pin-up guru every week, It's Love, Peace & Truth Incorporated for all who seek. He employed me as a karmacanic, with overall charms. His hands were then fit to receive, receive alms. That's why we're in The Battle of Epping Forest, It's the Battle of Epping Forest, Right outside your door. We guard your souls for peanuts, And we guard your shops and houses For just a little more. In with a left hook is the Bethnal Green Butcher, But he's countered on the right by Mick's chain-gang fight, And Liquid Len, with his smashed bottle men, Is lobbing Bob the Nob across the gob. With his kissar in a mess, Bob seems under stress, But Jones the Jug hits Len right in the mug; And Harold Demure, who's still not quite sure, Fires acorns from out of his sling. (Here come the cavalry!) Up, up above the crowd, Inside their Silver Cloud, done proud, The bold and brazen brass, seen darkly through the glass. The butler's got jam on his Rolls; Roy doles out the lot, With tea from a silver pot just like any picnic. Along the Forest Road, it's the end of the day And the Clouds roll away. Each has got its load - they'll come out for the count At the break-in of day. When the limos return for their final review, it's all through' - all they can see is the morning goo. "There's no-one left alive - must be draw." So the Blackcap Barons toss a coin to settle the score. |
Posted By: irrelevant
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 16:53
|
It's a slog and a half, but I'm not the biggest fan of Genesis anyway... ------------- https://gabebuller.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - New album! http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=7385 |
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 17:24
|
I don’t get how this is our second highest rated album when people are always complaining about either epping forest, more fool me and after the ordeal. I don’t think after the ordeal is amazing but I have no issue with those other two. ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 17:32
I think it's all about the sound of the album. It's gorgeously produced, just the right balance and blend of all the different instruments. Add in at least 3 stone cold Genesis classics and some pretty good sequencing and overall themes and you have yourself a prog classic. Besides, Yes' Fragile manages to win people over on the strength of 3 or 4 songs all the time (not that the other material is bad at all, but come on). ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: zeuhl1
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 22:01
|
I remember reading that the band had conceived and written it as an instrumental and were displeased when they found out Gabriel had gone in late night and laid this torrent of words on top of it without consulting with them about it. |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 23:05
I've read similar accounts. According to Tony, Gabriel would do that quite a lot. That's why the end of Apocalypse in 9/8 isn't instrumental. In Gabriel's defense, he's usually doing the song a favor. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: April 20 2020 at 23:43
It’s a little funny. I’ve seen so many folks claim this album as an absolute masterpiece...yet many of them skip this track. Sorta like all the people who go up and down about the King Crimson debut yet haven’t heard Moonchild since 73 during a mushroom trip  Personally? I dig the tune..although Peter probably should’ve mentioned something to the lads before he infused the Vaudeville touch. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 00:10
|
Don't feel badly, I quite enjoy "Time Table" on Foxtrot, which earns me great malice amongst Genesis fans! "Epping Forest" is decent, but not a masterpiece. Tony Banks does some great synth leads on that one. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 00:34
|
I don't like it apart from the brilliant first 2 minutes. It comes crashing out of the gates with serious intent and then falls at the firth or fifth hurdle (see what I did there lol). It's a weirdly muddled album for the second top album but even I have to admit it was my favourite album about 30 years ago. Now I feel it's missing too much. Even Cinema show is just a little bit too 'quiet' for my taste. The only untouchable tracks on this album are Dancing With The Moonlit Knight and Firth of Fifth but they are glorious and if you see in terms of being their most eccentric album then it's not so bad
|
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 00:40
|
It's one of my favorite Genesis Gabriel tracks, and I've always loved it! I love that proggies have a gripe with it even more LOL. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Rick1
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 01:37
| I was 12 when I first heard this after borrowing the album from a mate at school. I am 57 now - I still love it and never, ever tire of it. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 01:43
|
Didn't we already have this discussion a few weeks ago?  in the Closest to Perfect Album topic or Fave Genesis Lyrics thread or something Epping
Forest is certainly one of my fave Genesis tracks, and their best rock
opera ahead of RA&B, GTOBF and AIAMN and brilliant
almost-Python-esque humour is certainly one of its main attraction. However
I understand that it maybe sound weird, with the hilarious middle
interlude about the priest and the "beautiful chest"  not being everyone's
cup of tea, but I really don't see why anyone would hate this
near-typical Gabe-era Genesis track, unless they don't get it at all. Sooooo, if there is one Gabe-era track on that album (and the others) that gets "hate" (and rightly so, IMHO) it is More Fool Me, which is just about as detestable as YOSW on W&W.
|
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 05:37
Yes, and I hate talking about Epping Forest as much as listening to it! ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 07:20
|
Reading the lyrics, it seems Peter Gabrial hsd a little Charles Dickens fever, cause it reads quite in a Dickensian fassion of wierd characters -------------  
|
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 07:27
| I don't hate it. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 07:28
Well, it wouldn't have made the most exciting instrumental ever.
|
Posted By: essexboyinwales
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 08:52
|
Don't hate it, but don't like it much either. For me, Genesis had several albums where they felt they had to have a "silly" song (or silly-sounding song), and this is one of them... SEBTP-TBOEF+SR=GAOAT?  |
Posted By: zeuhl1
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 11:14
In the early 90's I approached a friend who ran a recording studio about removing the vocals from Epping to see what the band heard in it as an instrumental. Was told: a) it won't completely remove the vocals and b) it's going to cost more than you are willing to pay. I can't imagine Apocalypse in 9/8 without vocals though
|
Posted By: geekfreak
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 11:25
Yes me too! ------------- Friedrich Nietzsche: "Without music, life would be a mistake." Music Is Live Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed. Keep Calm And Listen To The Music… < |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 18:51
I think there are ways of isolating and/or removing tracks from songs nowadays that are basically free. I was listening closely to the instrumental for Epping Forrest yesterday and I though I could hear what Tony heard in it that could've justified it being instrumental. Or maybe Tony didn't want a full instrumental but just not so many words all over the place. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 18:54
How do you subtract Epping Forest and add Supper's Ready? SR is more than twice as long, and Epping Forest is already 11 minutes. Not to mention early Genesis albums are always in the 50+ minute range at the absolute capacity for vinyl records. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 19:25
| I do rather hate The Battle of Epping Forest... why? I just find it annoying and can barely hear it... and then, it's way too long. I can think of the 3 classic Genesis songs that I hate for being annoying, which are this one, Harold the Barrel, and Take them out by Friday. But the longest of them all is Epping Forest. And then, ruining the masterpiece status of my otherwise favourite Genesis album doesn't help on how I feel about it (More Fool Me is not all that good either, but it's short and bland enough that it doesn't really harm the album much). |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 19:26
I never knew people were supposed to not like Time Table, I do find it rather beautiful. |
Posted By: zeuhl1
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 20:00
I thought after I posted that what once was expensive and difficult to pull off is probably cheap or free and way more efficient. Ahh well. After I'd heard initially that it was designed to be instrumental, I'd had essentially your thought, what if there was a balance of vocals and instrumental with a proper hoedown in the middle? I'd imagine it would dissipate some of the dislike out there
|
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 20:15
|
Selling England by the Pound is the best Genesis album IMHO. So i personally love that effing Epping Forest -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: santirodriguez
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 21:11
| I naturally speak in spanish but no one seems to speak it so I look forced to write in English. I like that song, all my friends like it and I have a friend that says that is his favourite Genesis song. Although I think that is is not a masterpiece and Genesis has better tracks. |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 21:12
Thank you, I've read a few on PA who seemed to trash it somewhat. I agree, a very nice song, but not the single best on Foxtrot. ------------- I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!! |
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: April 21 2020 at 21:26
|
Man people are just looking for stuff not to like, who is trashing time tables? What’s so offensive about that song or more fool me? Man, I just like music, do people listen to stuff actively trying to find something not to like about it? ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 22 2020 at 02:25
|
I certainly find Timetable as weak or boring as Absent Friends, or Harlequin, but also lacking the sense of sweet melody
Difficult to believe as such, actually. First
time I hear about Gabe slapping on lyrics onto something not originally
designed for it. The comment reads like it was a "fait accompli" and no
turning back, but I suppose this didn't happen while recording it?
well it looks/sounds like you don't like Genesis' manner of doing rock opera songs. How do you feel about Robbery Assault and Mouse's Night? I agree Harrold is poor, but Friday is OK and Epping are more than good, IMHO |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 22 2020 at 02:34
Probably so! Of course it rather worked out for Genesis as it is. SEBTP has climbed to nearly the top of the PA top 100 after all, lol. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 22 2020 at 02:36
The first couple times I heard Foxtrot, Time Table was probably my favorite track. Gorgeous little piece, would've made a fine single. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 22 2020 at 02:39
Same. More Fool Me would rank as an absolute highlight on any soft rock or singer songwriter album in the 70s, but since it's on a prog rock record it gets a lot of flack for not being prog enough. Of course there was a recent thread where someone claimed Siberian Khatru was disco and totally didn't fit on a prog album, so who knows what's prog enough for a prog album?  ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 22 2020 at 02:42
Before you anyone on this board, you little  , would you care to correct the first  word in your signature??   |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 22 2020 at 02:44
Not a Star Wars fan I take it? And sorry if that emoji is offensive. It was the first one I saw that accurately conveyed my confusion at someone saying Siberian Khatru is disco. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: essexboyinwales
Date Posted: April 22 2020 at 03:01
Who said anything about vinyl?! I'm just playing fantasy album mash-up. SEBTP is one of my all time favourite albums, but it isn't perfect due to TBOEF. So it can't compete with (e.g.) The Human Equation, Weather Systems, Misplaced Childhood, The Road Of Bones, Images And Words... (for the same reason that Money spoils DSOTM) But, if SEBTP had included Supper's Ready, and not TBOEF, then (in IMHO) it would probably be the best of the whole lot...  |
Posted By: essexboyinwales
Date Posted: April 22 2020 at 03:03
Oh, and surely TBOEF is more like 19 minutes, not 11? It sure as hell feels like it....
|
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 22 2020 at 03:07
lol ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 22 2020 at 03:08
Fair. I had thought you meant you wished Genesis had saved SR for SEBTP and cut Epping Forest to make room for it. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 22 2020 at 03:19
Nah, the smiley wasn't offensive (at least to me) as I don't consider SK disco as well And OK, now I +/- get it (though I'm not familiar at all with Star Wars), but more via your username than the saga itself, since I don't know who or what porg is (it sounds like porc - hence my smiley) . It's a weird play on words, than, I suppose?? BTW: confusion would be more like
than the - wghich seems more like whackiness to me. |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 22 2020 at 03:29
Ah yes, that's the one I was looking for, thank you! And yeah, I just find it a funny little play on words since Star Wars has a creature called a Porg and that's so close to the word prog. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 22 2020 at 04:21
|
The song is a bit wordy, but still a great piece of Prog. I’ve never met any Genesis fan that dislikes it though. P.S. - I love Rutherford’s Bass tone - just a great, almost glassy Rickenbacker sound - Squire never got this tone. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 22 2020 at 23:57
that is indeed a beautiful song. Foxtrot is an album I don't find any fault with although Watcher Of The Skies tends to be the slightly controversial track for some reason.
|
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 23 2020 at 01:59
the A-side is rather flawed IMHO Not a fan of Watcher (the intro last way too long), Friday is relatively good (but the band has yet to find its ground with those rock operas - Epping Forest will be much better), Timetable is really not good. Only Can Utility is ultra-great and I even find it superior to Supper, because it condenses everything they can do in less than 6 minutes. |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: April 23 2020 at 03:17
|
The real controversy are those people who rate the collins sung abortion above the best rock opera that Genesis produced. I often fantasise about digital and CD being invented in 1970...Then you have SEBTP.... DOWTMK..13:02.. IKWIL...6:09.. FOF..21:12.. BOEF...23:49.. TCS...16:00.. In fact when I retire and convert my double garage into a recording studio, I may start a project to extend my fave symphonic prog...its a good retirement plan to have... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 23 2020 at 04:29
|
^ More Fool Me is a quaint little ditty. Sweet and innocent. How could you refer to it as a ‘Collins sung abortion’ ?? Bit harsh methinks. And After the Ordeal is quite a lovely instrumental. I’d never ditch anything on SEBTP. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 23 2020 at 05:46
|
More Fool Me prevents SEBTP from being the truly perfect prog gem many claim it to be, IMHO. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: April 23 2020 at 07:44
|
I just dont get what's so offensively bad about More Fool Me ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 23 2020 at 07:48
It is short and soon over, which is its saving grace. The same cannot be said for Epping Forest which drags on 5 or 6 minutes longer than its expiration date, hence its stench. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 23 2020 at 08:59
Not short enough, IMHO. 1- Even at the same length as (the much-better) For Absent Friends (1'30") it would still overstay its welcome by its entire duration. 2- MFM is totally out of context of the album's concept, which is about the collapse of the British Empire and the decadence of the English model. 3- musically, it's completely dire and dry (downright poor, I should be tempted to write), even when compared to the other less complex tracks (Wardrobe and Ordeal) 4- I'm not even sure Collins would find a spot for this MFM track on his 80's solo albums, however poor & suckish they would be.
|
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: April 23 2020 at 09:48
|
RE OP: The music sucks. I don't hear/am not interested in lyrics, thus I don't know what it's about (or particularly care). ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 23 2020 at 09:50
I don't particularly care for "Poor Boy Pity For Me"...oh wait...that's a Linda Ronstadt song...I meant "More Fool Me". But regarding: "2- MFM is totally out of context of the album's concept, which is about the collapse of the British Empire and the decadence of the English model." I would suggest "Firth of Fifth" has literally nothing to do with that model, or the alleged concept of the album. It was basically written in 1972 by Banks and was rejected as part of Foxtrot. Firth of Fifth is a take-off on the River Forth in Scotland, not England. But I suppose if one were to look at the album as "it represented a decay of English folk culture and an increase in Americanisation", then the pastoral theme could be wedged in someway or another. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: April 23 2020 at 10:01
| Epping is not my fav Genesis song, but really haven´t ever hated it as also nothing else from the Gabriel-era. Only Genesis-album I don´t like at all is Calling All Stations. |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: April 23 2020 at 10:49
|
I have nothing against "More Fool Me". It's no masterpiece, but it's nice enough. Plus, in the overall picture it's a nice break from the more complex songs. It adds some balance to the album I guess. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 23 2020 at 11:06
My parents having lived in Edimburg in the 80's , I'm fully aware that the Firth of Forth (much more of a gulf or a bay or estuary than a river, as Firth is a Scot derivate of Fjord) is in Scotland, but my take on Fifth (outside the play on word on "fourth") is that it reflects the mythology and lost grandeur of the British (read English) Empire (of which Scotland is one of the last piece with Wales & North Ireland), hence the reference to greek & roman mythology. Sands of time were eroded by constant change. So yeah, FoF doesn't fit 100% into the concept, but at least musically, it doesn't deface SEBTP. |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 23 2020 at 14:52
|
I love More Fool Me. For a long time I vastly preferred it to Epping Forest. And I do think it can fit to the lyrical and musical concept of the record in that it sounds like a Medieval madrigal of sorts, Phil and Mike are just passing minstrels in the English countryside playing a sweet little love song for anyone who cares to hear. That's the sort of thing that would disappear with the Americanisation of England. It's also got really lovely guitar work in its own right, and Phil's voice was never sweeter (and brilliant harmonies too). At any rate, it certainly doesn't stick out as much as Whodunnit from Abacab. A little acoustic balladry is always welcome in my book. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: dougmcauliffe
Date Posted: April 23 2020 at 16:52
|
Yeah you gotta really nitpick to hate more fool me. It's a pleasant minimalist acoustic song. It isn't meant to be a firth of fifth or cinema show. The short tracks are important on the album to contrast the long centerpieces of the album. ------------- The sun has left the sky... ...Now you can close your eyes |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 00:33
I don't rate Epping Forest of course (aside from the first 2 minutes) so 'better' is entirely subjective while Timetable is something special to me. I remember listening to it after the London bombings and it seemed as poignant and relevant as any song written to me. It really is that good and terribly underrated. However I agree that Can Utility is brilliant although not sure it outclasses Suppers Ready. I mean where is the Apocalypse section? You could have 15 minutes of drivel preceding it and it would still be better than 99% of prog epics. It's actually funny how many neo prog bands have tried to copy it and got nowhere near |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 01:32
It completely kills the flow and aesthetic of the record. It's like a B-side Phil Collins solo track, in the middle of arguably their finest recording. It's that smidge of jelly that gets into the peanut butter and ruins the rest of the jar, despite those two ingredients being mixed in the end anyway. I'm actually amazed they, the band and producers, left that song in, when you hear how finnicky they are about details and cutting, etc. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 01:41
Hey Richard, Reread my sentence observing the brackets. I was comparing Epping to Friday, nit to Timetable. - I don't hate TT, it just doesn't do anything for me, like Harlequin or Absent Friends. All three are inoffensive. - Harold is a bit annoying, though, but nothing like MFM, which seems to be some fireside ballad aimed at seducing a woman and wouldn't even succeeed as it's really not good. Can't believe Tony & Peter let that one go through and ruin an otherwise excellent,cohesive and coherent album. - Totally agree with 9/8 (though I would rate 12/10)  . They never got better. However I must say that the eggs are a bit of a omelette afterwards. As such, it's OK, but sounds a bit annoying after such a peak - as if anything could survive the Apocalypse. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 09:39
|
Hi, Some of the "historical" and "information" on the song is cool ... I enjoyed that part ... but the likes and dislikes? No wonder progressive music can't get ahead! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: pancho253
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 11:14
| This is stupid, it's one of the best genesis tracks. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 11:18
so this is your first post? Must be so proud... There are better ways to disagree with things posted here. |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 11:57
|
Well, the Genesis pot is stirred again. The porridge of grumpiness is partaken by the strange youngsters of the prog world...who listen without the context...but Fear not....Trump insists that injecting yourself with bleach will prevent you from dying from covid19...coz you will be dead within minutes of the injection but your death will not be in the covid stats....thankful for her fine fare discount...Tess cooperates... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 12:14
|
I quite enjoy the song. It's actually my second favorite on the album, behind Firth of Fifth. And ahead of both Moonlit Knight and Cinema Show. I actually like every song on the album, including More Fool Me (although that's kind of down on the list behind the epics and mid-length songs). And in spite of the wordiness of the song, I actually know all the lyrics and can "sing" along with it. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 13:48
|
^ Singing along is always fun...... .....and Harold demure, who’s still not quite sure, fires acorns from out of hithling 🤪 |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 16:05
here come the cavalry and this is when I do my little Tony Banks air keys, with all his noodly arpeggios and scales ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: April 24 2020 at 17:40
|
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 00:39
|
Firing acorns from out of his sling...Gabriel putting on a camp voice...to be fair to Genesis...being posh boarding school boys wouñd have given them less gritty insight that the punk bands bred on the streets with violence a common theme....but lyrically BoEF is as good as it gets fir me anyway... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: Sacro_Porgo
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 00:42
Hackett has some great parts in it too, especially right at the end. ------------- Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :) |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 00:46
INSERT MAGICAL, PBS-ESQUE SYNTH LEAD HERE. I absolutely love that part, lol. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 01:13
I did get that and still my point stands. Saying Epping Forest is better than Friday is just an opinion. I like Friday as its comments on all too familiar theme of the seventies in the UK - wildcat strikers and union domination. London based gangland wars was not what people remember about the seventies. Yes it is a thing and the current TV series Gangs Of London might be the best thing since GOT but nevertheless (for me and imo) Epping Forest is too long and not a very interesting track. It outstays its welcome but a good 6 minutes at least. Sometimes less is more!
|
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 01:16
|
^ sometimes less is more? Is that what you tell your wife? ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 01:20
|
The gangland references are based on the kray twins in tbe sixties I think, after the krays were banged up for the murder of Jack "The hat" McVicar there was a power vacuum...so the battle began... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 01:27
|
When the limos return for their final review, it's all through' - all they can see is the morning goo. "There's no-one left alive - must be draw." So the Blackcap Barons toss a coin to settle the score. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 05:23
|
For those who think Epping is too wordy, what should they think about Supper's Ready or the whole The Lamb, which still needed a full two pages to explain the plot At least Epping doesn't need that... It's easily understood by itself
|
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 05:42
This is my argument as well. I think many dislike TBoEF because it's a LOT in the course of 8 minutes, where as Supper's Ready is very spread out with lots of musical padding. Lamb has breaks, too. TBoEF is non-stop Gabriel full-force lyrical/whimsy hammering, lol. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 08:00
|
it didn't earn the moniker of 'The Bataan Death March of Prog' for nothing... at least More Fool Me didn't drag on for 11 minutes.. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 10:29
|
^ Back in your box mickey, one full of pissed off inland taipans should do nicely....😎 ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 10:44
That is the most apt title for that dreadful dirge of crappy Cockney I've ever heard. I think it's because of the Battle of Effing Forest that Peter Gabriel lost his mind and managed to drag out a a single record of decent songs and turn it into The Lag Lingers Long on Broadway double album.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 11:20
...And yet, MFM somehow makes 3:10 feel like 10:10 of poor song choice and placement. What a way to ruin an (almost) perfect record. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 11:21
|
amen to that man.. on both points though it is probably not best to get me started on the Lamb... at least this song is at least interesting to blow shotgun shell sized holes through.. it really does have 'kick me' written all over it. No wonder the hate... gotta love our English friends (and drugged out Genesis fans) that actually think this was a good piece of music.. or failing that.. an interesting story. huh... well take this.. from your American friends.. much better story.. and says enough about 70's Genesis that is it far more interesting musically. hah..  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 23:34
Indeed I don't... I prefer them at their more pastoral and symphonic. About Robbery Assault, I don't care much for it... I didn't like it and haven't listened to it in a while... I don't really remember much about the song, but whenever I have put the CD again, it doesn't change my mind about the song. About Mouse's Night, that one's frustrating, for I like the song... the music that is... but the lyrics are rather ridiculous... like the band was trying to pull some Gabriel-like lyrics (which I don't really like to begin with), and ended up failing misserably... yet, I try to think about the lyrics as being about Tom and Jerry to digest them a bit better (not that I was ever much of a fan of the cartoons, but I did watch them back then sometimes). |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 27 2020 at 03:37
Do you like humour in music?? (I don't mean Zappa-type of humour) What do you think and their hilarious Counting Out Time on the Lamb? Cos except for Get Them out By Friday, all of their rock operas were using much humour. Maybe it would help if you saw the RA&B videoclip produced back then, with Phil showing his acting prowess You're right about T&J cartoons for Mouse's Night, but I suspect that's partly where the lyerics came from.
|
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 27 2020 at 04:43
|
I don't hate it, but I can live without it. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: April 27 2020 at 05:34
|
^ I like it, but I can live without it. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: April 27 2020 at 05:51
|
It seems to me that there is something distinctly British about The Battle Of Epping Forest, and I wonder if perhaps this is a little too much for American or European audiences. As an Australian who has been around for about six decades, I am quite familiar with British comedies and the British sense of humour in general. Look at that... I even spell "humour" the same way as the British. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: April 27 2020 at 14:02
Actually no, I don't really enjoy humor in music. The point of humor is to make you laugh, and I can hardly think of someone actually laughing at any gimmick within a song... it might amuse a bit, but not really laugh. And I won't really go looking for a song to laugh... if that's what I want, I'll see a comic movie, or read jokes, or watch a comedian show. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: April 27 2020 at 14:48
I don't think that quite holds up . Also it's very London centric and not really 'British' per se. The whole everything revolves London is actually a bit irritating for those who were not born there. Yes the place does have culture and I believe that's what people miss about London when they leave it. The only thing that I like (in the song) is the lyric about 'East End Heroes' and the total ridiculousness of the protection racket. But the song just goes on and on making a point that didn't needed to be strung out for what seems like half a decade.
|
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: April 28 2020 at 00:33
|
After careful review of this thread, all I know for certain is that I'm breaking the leg of the b*****d that got me framed. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 28 2020 at 02:29
OK, I understand where you're getting at about comedy in music (I'm not big Zappa humour fan, it ruins many good songs of his), and even in Genesis' case, it's not systematic that I will like it either (Harold, for ex). I didn't mean to say that I actually ROTFLMAO when listening to Epping Forest either. Yeah it makes me smile because the lyrics and music go extremely well together (kudos to The Gabe for fitting them over the music, if they came afterwards). But in Epping Forest, even reading the lyrics without the music, I find it funny (but not ROTFLMAO), which is not necessarily the case with RA&B or COT.
|