But with all the praise I see you guys give ELP, I'm thinking I should give them another try. But what album?

To begin with, ELP are one of the few bands to transcend the genre.  They were the most exciting prog band - ever.  If you have any doubts, read Danny Baker's article on seeing ELP in 1971 in the latest ed of 'Prog' magazine.  It says it all - better than I could express.  Sadly, I was too young to see them in their prime - but I finally saw them at the Albert Hall in 92.  

Fanboy ;-)

Even ELPowell is worth checking out, just out of curiosity. 

Argo2112 wrote: I'm wearing my Tarkus shirt now so I'm going to say yes.

 

Brain Salad Surgery is the one to revisit.

The first album is very eclectic and varied but still as classically influenced as anything they did.

My brief summation of the other studio albums:

This review misses the point that on the Works Tour, ELP were still sh*t hot live.  Anyone unconvinced by this should try the 'Live at Nassau' album.  The live versions of 'The Enemy God', 'Tank' and 'Pirates' - without the orchestra - are breathtaking.  Emerson skillfully rearranges those songs.  'Works Live' is also worth investigating - I was never a fan of 'Abaddon's Bolero' that gets a new lease of life as well. Oh, and 'Canario' off 'Love Beach' is storming as well - shame that was never performed live.

Really...the first one is all you really need...imho they never topped that one even with the much praised Tarkus track. 

With the possible exception of Tocatta I don't think the drumming was ever better or at least more exciting than on the debut also. 

You could take a slightly different approach if you are discouraged by the many classical references from the '70 to '74 period e.g. start with Black Moon from 1992 which is a vastly underappreciated collection of short symphonic Prog tunes where a welcome 'modern' economy is evident i.e. no long conceptual suites and just the one classical adaptation (Prokofiev but with a Hendrixy kinda vibe)

After that, the closest album that inhabits that stylistic spirit is maybe the ELPowell offering from 1986

I've always felt that if you took the classical influence out of ELP you would end up with something that resembles an Argent/Greenslade hybrid.

richardh wrote: Emerson, Lake and Powell - the band returns with a different drummer and a heavily Yamaha GX1 dominated sound. Lake shouts a lot and it all comes across as so trying to recreate the past that it hurts.

 

I think Greg sounds just fine, especially on "The Miracle," "Touch and Go" and "Step Aside."

But I'm biased. I love that album. I like Black Moon, too (I saw them play at the Wiltern), but I think it's a little less consistent. I also prefer the version of "Romeo and Juliet" that's on Keith's Changing States, retitled "Montagues and Capulets."

I find this funny, although I think you did not mean it to be funny. 

This is my feeling too. I loved The Nice and the first ELP album. Bits of Tarkus and Trilogy are very good. I'm afraid I just cant stand Greg Lakes voice or his gooey ballads- I once saw Jim Davidson (the supposed comedian from the 70s) doing a version of 'Watching over you' on some awful tv show (shame there isn't an Emoji for vomiting) and that was the last straw.. but I am a big Keith Emerson fan!

I just stuck to the studio stuff but I do agree with you mostly. I play that Montreal DVD more than any other DVD despite the poor sound quality. The band were incredibly tight and they obviously worked hard to get to that. Live At Nassau is also brilliant as you point out.

I would quibble a bit with Canario only in that I would rather it was a bit longer. I feel on this track that the band are working up to something special and then they just 'blow their load' so to speak. Compare it to the fantastic end section of Hoedown and you should get what I mean.

On the subject of Greg Lake ballads I would only maybe put Still You Turn Me On into the 'gooey' category from ELP's classic period. From The Beginning is actually a very beautiful song and not really about 'love' but more about introspection and accepting our weaknesses. The mini-moog solo on that song is also wonderful (one of Emo's best) 

Yep the Works period did see Lake 'let out of his cage' a bit in tandem with Pete Sinfield (who actually wrote the lyrics so it's really his fault) That aside from the afore mentioned Watching Over You which was about his then baby daughter Natasha . He wrote the song as a lullaby and actually I find it rather sweet , so shoot me if you must!

Hi,

Welcome to the board ... 

I think that at one time things sounded and looked gimmicky, and I always thought that things like Switched on Jack Face was one of the things that kinda made classical music seem silly in other instruments, only to find, several months later TOMITA doing Debussy ... 

Not everything is "gimmicky", and some folks are serious about their music.

Before you tackle the next ELP thing, try listening to Rachel Flowers piano version of TARKUS and also the piano version of THE ENDLESS ENIGMA ... and then go ahead and get your next ELP album ... I would get TARKUS next ... I have never thought of it as "gimmicky" for the 50 years I have heard Keith and try and hear TAKE A PEBBLE from the first album ... it's all piano ... and you will find one of the great composers in music ... 

My take still is, after 50 years that this IS OUR TIME, and that THE CURRENT EXPRESSION is "electric" and thus, the majority of works will be electric and some will sound gimmicky, but are not.

My thoughts are that if Keith tried to sell his "piano concerts" to a school of music, or even the young fans at the time, he will get laughed off and completely wasted ... and for my ears and taste, I find this sad ... Rich Wright is also very classical with a jazz touch, but you have to separate his stuff from all the PF material, to find it ... and many other "keyboard" players are gimmicky ... for example, for my tastes RW is very gimmicky! Why? It's almost the same lead, but on a different instrument/sound, and while it is still "classical" in a sense, I've thought many times that he was simply doing the easy thing ... just a riff here, another riff there, and then a riff here ... and to me that is much less classical than what Keith EVER did ... how the heck was he going to show his mates what he came up with? They would not "fit" into a piano thing at all ... too classical and traditional otherwise.

Before you give ELP another try, may I ask that you try looking at some of this stuff a bit different ... Banco, Ange, and many other bands with massive keyboards (2 of them in both cases), are extremely classical, and it is not a gimmick like PG ... it is much better dialed in.

I just finished listening to Tarkus. The title track is pretty epic. It maybe needs a few more listens to fully appreciate it. But I did enjoy it. Nothing of the gimmicky stuff I expected.

Then side two. Jeremy Bender. What and why? Luckily after this short silly song the albums picks up pace again with Bitches Crystal. I could've done without The Only Way. The pipe organ is such a majestic instrument, but this song is pretty lame. Then Infinite Space is a very nice track. Then another alright song. And the album ends with another song that is pretty silly, but also kind of fun. Side two is pretty patchy and it's too bad they didn't maintain the grandiose of the first side.

PS It has happened also in the history of classical music: hardly a great virtuoso was also a great composer, because he tends to slobber, to exceed in virtuosity rather than in composition.

Actually, I agree with you 'From the beginning' is a rather nice song and the Moog solo is glorious Maybe I was being a bit tough but I just don't find Lakes voice very attractive (to me) and youre right Sinfield did write the lyrics (all be it about a touching personal subject) for watching over you but he also went on to write songs for Bucks Fizz (FFS!) and (possibly? I could be wrong) Dollar! I know we've all got to make a living but... I do have a fondness for 'Still' by Pete Sinfield but otherwise hold him very much at arms length artisically 

Hi,

The American Way usually means you have to have a bit of fun and show it ... and every album (well actually not all of them!) have a fun song, and it begs the question ... what's the point? My thoughts are that these were probably more for fun!

One last suggestion and I won't say any more ... IF YOU EVER think that something is "gimmicky", UNPLUG IT ... and you will know right away how serious it is ... and this is where in my mind someone like RW fails in the early days ... it's riff on riff on riff on riff, and how do they relate musically? Most don't if you scribble it out on a staff and paper! You can take a "Take a Pebble", "Tarkus", "Karn Evil" and a whole bunch of other pieces and "unplug them, and guess what ... you still have a massively great piece of music!

But a little fun, here and there, is fine ... doesn't mean they are any less great musicians, but for the audiences in America and England, I like to say they have not handled a "serious concert" by a rock band since the days they were too stoned to know any better, or worse, any different!

In the end, if you study and read Keith's works, the lack of appreciation for a lot of his "classical" music is what did him in ... he wants to show you some serious music and what do the fans do? ... this was also, btw, the biggest complaint Frank Zappa had about audiences and fans!

If I may suggest, you might really consider studying and listening to Keith's material that has been orchestrated and played live with an orchestra ... the whole thing is very different than what ELP did, but its main drive and force is still there. 

Hi,

Cleaned it up so your flatulence will not stink up the thread ... it was not meant to sound as bad as you made it, and I certainly was not going around Keith's words. But these "fun bits" had a lot more effect on their music, than just a bit of fun. For many, it took the serious stuff away, like it did for many folks in the thread here. 

Shove that asinine "Hi" up your rear. It is meaningless, it is fake, and it certainly isn't ever meant in a friendly sense. It's just a passive-aggressive exordium for yet another descent into Mosh's perambulating pile of patchouli pablum. And speaking of nonsense....

 

I suppose I should have quoted you directly, given you just edited out most of your usual demeaning excesses and insults. But certainly, edit out everything that shows you are a cretin, particularly when you incorrectly stated that ELP's humorous attempts at songs were written for American audiences, who, as you like to point out ad nauseam, are incapable of understanding art on the divine level you have reached.

Whatever. You were wrong, per the artist himself. Pontificating in error is never a good look. Droning on and amplifying the fallacy is worse.

Hi,

Right ... considering how many nice things I have said about Keith and his music, your comment is not really that good ... makes me wonder who is pontificating who, unless your religion thinks that mine is not worthy of discussion because yours is superior.

AND I, only have some objections to some American audiences, not all of them ... had no issues in the early days, whatsoever, but seeing Babe Ruth get boo'd because everyone wanted to see Iggy ... at the Whiskey A Go Go ... way back when, is not only bad, it is ridiculous ... if it was your band you wouldn't like it either!

Get real ... your just being a shade of dark that is imaginary inventing causes so you have something to say ... maybe next time you can say something worthy of attention instead of comments that show you did not even READ the whole thing!

Actually very broadly speaking I agree with an awful lot of that and I am a fan! ELP were far from perfect and in my opinion they never tried to be. Emerson was very into 'ideas' and tried not only be inventive but also re-inventive. Apparently (and this was once explained to an audience by the keyboard player in one of the tribute bands) he would break from convention quite deliberately in how he wrote music.

The Brain Salad Surgery album was a breaking point for many. Emerson and Palmer were challenging each other and it does feel like a race at times. That said it still seems very unique that they did this as I don't remember many bands approaching music this way. It was very personality driven progressive rock but much more emphasis on the 'rock'. Perhaps they transcended the genre to an extent because they could pitch up their tent with the likes of Deep Purple and Black Sabbath. Can you really imagine Gentle Giant or VDDG headlining a massive festival like The California Jam? I'm not convinced though that this really satisfied Keith Emerson. Works was really what he wanted to do. Have you heard his Piano Concerto? I would be very interested in your thoughts on this. Thanks.  

I waste my time as I please 

ELP is not a band that I have dismissed. I like their first album. And I like to read what others have to say about it. People who can give me a better further introduction than Youtube. And this is a discussion forum, so having a discussion is not wasting time right? People could easily choose not to reply.

Someone earlier in the thread http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=122723&PID=5748762#5748762" rel="nofollow - said "Life’s too short. Why not listen to things you like instead?". And of course that's true. But I think part of being a fan of an adventurous genre like prog rock is sometimes putting some effort into exploring music and trying to "get it". And reading reviews and having discussions can further give some understanding and depth to the music. Otherwise we could all just put up some pop music and just "consume" music.

That's very interesting what you say about BSS; I felt that was very much the case with that album and although it has some potentially stunning ideas on it, the combination of this intense inter-band race to out-do each other combined with the (in my view, anyway) awful production sound (I think they were trying for a Sci-fi futuristic sound but it just sounds overly top end, cluttered and verging on distorted to my ears) it just gives me a headache.. perhaps that's what turns me off ELP, the (maybe perceived rather than real) 'personality' and 'competitive' driven nature of how their music became and they just seemed a bit too smug...

Dude, you just ask the questions you want to ask. if no one gets back, you have your answer. Like you said this is discussion forum.. if people want to discuss, great. if they don't then (written) silence speaks volumes. There's as many positive people on here as grumpies.

I'm not really sure what you mean. I did get a lot of helpful replies and interesting discussion, apart from the two members suddenly barking at each other on the previous page. But stuff like that always happens on the internet.

Anyway I just finished listening to Brain Salad Surgery. Benny The Bouncer was a brief moment of silliness but I enjoyed the whole album. And Karn Evil 9 is a very good track, maybe a tad long-winded.

 

Welcome to Progressive Rock.  Actually, on the original vinyl version, Karn Evil 9 starts on Side 1. On the CD version I have, the break in the original track has been removed so that Karn Evil 9 is one continuous piece of music.

 

 

I noticed the song being almost half an hour, that wouldn't fit on one LP side. I have the 1993 CD, that was the best sounding version I could find, and it also has Karn Evil 9 as a continuous track. Cool that they "fixed" the break between side one and two.

I think that someway EL&P's attitude to classical music was very dissacrant, aggressive, almost heavy metal... in fact sometimes I've read that they were the punk of progressive. But if you act on intensity (like punk groups) you should concentrate the emotion on few notes, if you put together intensity and a lot of notes, continuos changes of melodies, variations on the theme (like prog bands), you create confusion, a music satured and sustained that it's difficult to follow.

Piano concert: Do you mean this composition? I've never listened to it.

The California Jam is here

I try to listen to them. 

I believe that EL&P had a desecrating attitude towards classical music, that is, they exasperated it with furious arrangements, almost heavy metal, in fact I have read several times that we can consider them 

the punks of prog.  

I've never listened to Piano Concerto by K. Emerson. Do you mean this piece?

Tomorrow I will listen to it.

And even this:

Er.. yes, sorry about that. I was trying to say that I agree with your reply to Davesax1965. Its up to the individual replying (or considering replying) to decide if its a good use of their time and bad manners to accuse you of wasting their time. Was that any clearer? if not, sorry again

Mental note to self: never never try and write anything online (particularly pompous nonsense) after a hard days work and a couple of glasses of homemade wine

Yes, perfectly clear! Pretty weird to go online, spend time on a forum and then accuse people they've wasted your time.

How's the wine? Is it regular grape wine?

Its very nice, thank you.. I make it out of allsorts of fruits, flowers, even vegetables and leaves it sounds bonkers, but you can basically produce alcohol from yeast, sugar and pretty much any organic substance.. if you're desperate! of course the ideas are refined to get something that tastes nice and looks good! I think its what used to be called 'Country wines' as distinct from 'Wine' which is made from grape or grape juice extract. I have made grape wines from a white grape I have growing in the garden (and for a short while I ran a very small vineyard about 20 years ago) and I find its the most difficult (or most skill needed) to get a satisfactory wine from.. but I have produced some very decent sparkling white wine

yes that is the Piano Concerto. Movement One is very inspired by Aaron Copeland ( He also named one of his sons Aaron)

Wow that Cal Jam is amazing. I've seen some of the footage but not that much before. I will settle down with a beer or two this weekend and give that a good watch

Tendiwa wrote: Should I give ELP another try? I like their first album, and that's the only one I kept. The other albums I've heard in the past were too much trying to mix in classical influences for my taste. I like it when bands use techniques derived from classical music, but I don't like it when rock bands try to actually sound classical or downright play classical pieces. To me it's like orchestras playing pop/rock music. It's gimmicky. But with all the praise I see you guys give ELP, I'm thinking I should give them another try. But what album?

Well ELP is certainly an essential prog group (the one that brought pretentiousness and pomposity to it), but I'm like you, all I kept is their first album (though I never spin it), though I still own a Mawell XL-IIS compilation of their stuff.

Maybe unlike you, I did listen to them a fair bit in the 70's and somewhat in the 80's (ELPowell), but never really paid attention to what they did in the 90's, so I know the "essential ELP" fairly well, and never get the irge to relisten to it. Though I certainly won't zap radio-station if I hear one of their tracks, if I never hear ELP in my life, I think I'm fine.

But.... Should you give them another try?

Well if you're not really famliliar with their other albums as I am, why not??

Otherwise, if you remember Tarkus & BSS and don't feel the urge to relisten, then don't

Get on YouTube (I'm sure they got full albums on there) and see what they propose and read a few PA reviews to help you get in their music if needed.

But otherwise it's not like you'll be a lesser proghead if you skip them altogether.

The idea of the one desert island disc per band being their triple live is a little easy, but I'd still hesitate to take that over the debut, despite the inclusion of Tarkus.

I'm definitely not a fan of BSS and that Show live album was recorded on that tour, and features all of that album. For a better balance I'd have wanted the A-side featuring something more from the debut, some thing from Pictures and even some track from Trilogy

I don't find it well cut either, with tracks spread over two sides needlessly: if there is nothing you can do about Tarkus and KEN because of their resective live-rendition lengths, Pebble should've be able to fit the whole of the D-side, pushing the ragtime thingie behind Aquatarkus. And of course the CD version does not solve that problem

You mean Welcome Back My Friends to the Show That Never Ends?

the deluxe reissues are excellent. It doesn't need fixing and not the whole of BSS is included as I pointed out. Also there is track from Trilogy. That was a tricky album to pull off live. Endless Enigma just didn't work and Lakes vocal range was nearly 'shot' by the time they were touring in 73/74 so the track Trilogy became an impossibility (although they never officially performed it live anyway despite a version that is on the net that contradicts this (Keith Emerson didn't consider it to be a proper attempt). My only complaint is that I would rather not have the drum solo parked in KE9 1st impression. 3rd Impression kicks serious ass on this album though and that makes up for it as far as I'm concerned.

indeed

Don't give ELP another try.

Does that help you decide...?

Haha nice one 

But honestly I'm enjoying ELP. I'm now listening to the Welcome Back My Friends To The Show That Never Ends live album and it's really good!

why or how would it help? It's just one man's opinion. 

They say John Peel could have been an electrician. What a waste.

Funny how it's easy to bag on John Peel because he didn't like ELP. Many critics didn't like prog rock — rather, they were selective, they liked some, not all. And many disliked ELP more than their contemporaries.

John Peel named Tangerine Dream's 1973 record (their fourth) Atem "Album of the Year." That gave their next album, the now legendary Phaedra, the ability to hit 15th place on the U.K. Albums Chart virtually on the power of word of mouth (it only sold 6K units in their home base, DEU).

Diff'rent strokes, folks.

^ No sh*t Sherlock, Peel was also a massive fan of the Nice.

ExittheLemming wrote: ^ No sh*t Sherlock, Peel was also a massive fan of the Nice.

 

YOU may say "no sh*t," Igor, but I wager there are many people who still haven't a clue about the Peel-TD connection. 

I've posted on numerous occasions on PA that I'm an unashamed ELP fanboy and have reviewed 13 of their albums and 7 by the Nice in abundantly positive terms so get a clue super sleuth. In other news, TD is music for unsolicited sperm donors (but each to their own)

The quote would have been more effective if he had left out the bit about talent. He recognised they had talent and for many (myself included) that is massively important. I am really not going to listen to countless thousands of talentless ****'s out there when I can have Keith Emerson ,Greg lake and Carl Palmer doing their thing. Of course there were ridiculously pretentious and were never able write a 'masterpiece' about the human condition or whatever is deemed important and passes for music. They were far too busy tearing up the rule book and having sh*tloads of fun. It all ended badly with any number of poor decisions that permanently damaged their reputations but if ever there was a band that never looked over its shoulder or worried about what others were doing it was ELP.  

No, I don't need to. You just made it abundantly clear you completely misread my post, as though I were addressing you directly. I was not. I'm also an ELP fan (I made that clear earlier). Now, go and reread my statement and ease up on the vinegar, willya?  

TD isn't for everyone. Neither is ELP. 

 ELP in a nutshell. Keith made the world safe for a rock band led by keyboards, not guitar.

Nah, I'm more of less with you. ITCOTCK, while I do like it a lot, ELP's debut really knocks my socks off every time and has this atmosphere to it that feels so pure. I probably prefer it.

Yep, ELP created something on it that really wasn't heard before imo. They fused classical with rock in a way where they didn't sound like two separate things. It's hard for me to describe but anyone who knows that album knows what I mean. 

 

^ the best ELP collection is The Atlantic Years , even has some nice original artwork as a bonus. 

The one you mention though does have a bonus CD of the 'straight from boards' recording of Hoedown, KE9 and a few other things from the 1974 Anaheim gig that was used for the triple album. Those are great and almost make up for the butchering of the studio version of KE9 on the 2 CD set!

People get very stuck on this album it seems to me. Yes there is that grainy feel and Keith Emerson is an absolute god on the thing but it still seems very disjointed to me. I'm not keen on the version of Tank compared to the superb Works version on it either and Knife Edge is just something that never quite did it for me. The rest is pretty decent but like all ELP albums it has high points and low points IMO. Of course if they didn't then the top four albums on PA would all be ELP! They were incredibly inventive and only PFM (first 2 Italian releases) and maybe Gentle Giant (up to Interview) perhaps got anywhere close to them in that regards.

I love PFM, but I've never really seen them as the most inventive prog band. Then again, I've never thought they sounded as much like ELP as Genesis, though the consensus with a lot of Italian prog seems to be it was initially derived from ELP. And what about Van Der Graaf Generator or Magma for inventiveness? I agree ELP did something wonderful and original, but I don't think they're one of only a few bands who really pushed the envelope of creativity. 

Totally. And the crazy thing is to me their debut doesn't really feel like some kind of big proggy opus like CTTE or TAAB or something. It manages to be really groundbreaking and complex and well synthesized while retaining the feeling of just putting three guys in a room together and letting them jam. It sounds like it could've been tossed off in an afternoon. I love that quality about it. Tarkus would be a sharp turn away from that aesthetic, though I think it's just as wonderful.

In my experience, I'd say 80% of the time if I ask a non-proggy friend/person "Do you like progressive rock?", they'll answers "What, you mean like ELP?". It is what it is. I think they penetrated the public eye a bit more back at that time vs stuff like Yes and KC, which only makes sense to me.

I have already started to appreciate them more 

Typically a person's taste in music is set by the time they are about 20 or so. If you didn't discover and get into prog by then it's unlikely(but not impossible) you ever will. The same could be said about specific bands too although this isn't set in stone either. However, I can't imagine many 60 year olds all of a sudden deciding out of the blue they like ELP(or prog in general too for that matter) after all.

AFlowerKingCrimson wrote: Typically a person's taste in music is set by the time they are about 20 or so. If you didn't discover and get into prog by then it's unlikely(but not impossible) you ever will. The same could be said about specific bands too although this isn't set in stone either. However, I can't imagine many 60 year olds all of a sudden deciding out of the blue they like ELP(or prog in general too for that matter) after all.

 

Maybe. Maybe not. When it was nearly time to bid adieu to my teens, I was already into rock/hard rock/metal, electronic/new age, film score/classical, and the major prog bands.

And then it happened: JAZZ-FUSION! And I still listen to everything!