Thoughts on Duke
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=110320
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Topic: Thoughts on Duke
Posted By: Old King Cole
Subject: Thoughts on Duke
Date Posted: February 21 2017 at 08:07
| I was just wondering what people's thoughts were on 1980's Duke. In my opinion it has a lot of proggy elements but with a more accessible feel. It's the only 80's album that I thoroughly enjoy. The weakest song is probably "Please Don't Ask", which is obviously a Collins song both lyrically and musically but songs such as "Heathaze", "Duke's Travels/End" and "Behind the Lines" and more are great songs. I personally think it should be regarded as the last prog album. I think it's a better album than "...And Then There Were Three." |
Replies:
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 21 2017 at 09:19
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: February 21 2017 at 09:20
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There are only about three stand-out songs on Duke for me, and the unsung hero of the affair is Mike Rutherford for penning Man of Our Times. Wonderful stuff that was showing his maturity as a songwriter at the time. Also, Heathaze lies within the upper echelons of Genesis tunes, once again attesting to the beautiful, lilting music Tony Banks was capable of composing. ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: February 21 2017 at 09:39
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I think it is an essential album, a true classic. Beautifully crafted, emotional, with a wall of sound that sounds as good today as it did when I first heard it in 1980. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: RoeDent
Date Posted: February 21 2017 at 09:43
I hope you actually mean "Genesis' last prog album" here, and not the last prog album ever made. And even then, that is debatable. Prog = progressive, moving forwards. We need to get rid of the snobbish attitude that radio friendly = regression for prog artists. There are elements of prog in all of Genesis' albums; just because they found the magic formula for how to appeal to a large fanbase doesn't mean they suddenly stopped being "prog", whatever that even means.
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Old King Cole wrote:Posted By: Old King Cole
Date Posted: February 21 2017 at 09:48
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: February 21 2017 at 09:50
I like the way you think. Let's also look at "Home By The Sea" (both parts) from Genesis (1983). Had a band from England's early '80s neo scene recorded that, they'd probably be credited with helping reinvigorate the scene. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 21 2017 at 10:38
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It's their last great album IMO. I have a real soft spot for ATTWT, but Duke is arguably more consistent and in places more powerful. I'm not keen on Misunderstanding and Please don't ask, but everthing else is excellent. Man of our times, Cul de sac, Turn it on again and Dukes Travels/End are my fave tunes on Duke. At least 4 stars, if not 5. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 01:37
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I got my copy of Duke autographed when they put in a record store appearance. Oh an amusing note my brother brought a copy of Moroccan Roll and Tony signed it. They passed it around and all laughed at the back cover. Yeah Misunderstanding was certainly some kind of mistake. heheheh I also thing Abacrabs should get more respect. Whodunnit gets trashed but I think that is not deserved. It was supposed to be silly. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: AZF
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 02:56
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I really love the emotional punch of "Duchess". "Turn It On Again" is their greatest single. Duke is great. And I also like Abacab. I'd pick a PG era for best Genesis album, but for Collins era, it would more likely be Duke. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 04:26
I believe that micky has stated over a thousand times that it's the best Genesis album.  Personally, I can live without it.------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 05:11
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Most songs are good, as an album I prefer it above ATTW3. Duke's Travels/Duke's End may be their best post-Hackett effort. ------------- 
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Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 05:21
| Horrible. Phil wrecked the band with his top forty bubble gum fantasies. I even have a problem listening to the early material of Genesis because of Phil. |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 08:39
------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: Old King Cole
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 09:56
Have you listened to the album as a whole? Most of the songs are really good. "Duke's Travels/End" is just as proggy as their earlier efforts, "Heathaze" is a beautiful song with an original chord progression and a nice melody and "Duchess", "Turn it on Again" and "Behind the Lines" are good examples of "prog-pop" done right. Maybe you should give it another shot.
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 10:33
Banks and Rutherford were just as responsible for the direction Genesis took after Hackett left. It is simply wrong to load all the "blame" on Collins. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 12:39
| Ellington ? |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 13:10
Tony Banks, a pop guy? No way!  ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 15:06
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I listened to it again after a very long period of having not. The music for the most part is painfully simplex. Duke's Travels is alright and is the most progressive thing on the album. Still, it's mainly of value to anyone seeking a lot of keyboard gratification; guitar fan? forget it. The timbres on the keyboard are nice. I like that. No interesting textures or interactive melodies or counterpoint and so on. Nothing too complicated; an atmospheric background of sound with cycling keyboard solos on top. Certainly there's more guitar on Dukes End, but it's very ordinary. The opening to Behind the Lines and Duchess have the "sound" of Prog, but have all the inner complexity and innovation of just about any AC/DC song, so they're not Prog. As for the rest of it, I can't detect Prog anything of any sort. I don't know in what way this can be thought of as a Prog album. Maybe an album with a glimpse of Prog. Although I like Phil Collins' vocals in large part on Trick of the Tail and Wind & Wuthering (some exceptions), his vocals are annoying to me nearly all throughout Duke. He seems to be singing in an effort to charm teenage girls. The vocals have something the sort of which I can only describe as a sort of "Pop glee" that leaves me very uncomfortable. ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: Thatfabulousalien
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 15:31
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Better than The Wall ------------- Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV. https://www.soundcloud.com/user-322914325 |
Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 19:11
| There was only one really good track on The Wall. The one that gets played to death on classic rock radio stations. Why don't they play anything from Animals? |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 19:34
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I prefer the Tar Heels ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Magnum Vaeltaja
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 19:35
Because FM radio only plays songs longer than ~6-7 minutes in very rare circumstances and the only songs on Animals that are less than 10 minutes long is Pigs On The Wing, which are far from the best things on the album. ------------- when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents |
Posted By: Kepler62
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 20:00
Yeah I know. Back in the seventies there were FM stations that would play full albums late at night plus live feeds. Some albums ran under 45 minutes such as Animals and some Gentle Giant records.I even remember hearing long songs like Supper's Ready but those glory days are gone 
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: February 22 2017 at 21:29
| For the most part I don't like it so much. Sort of bland, I guess, it's been a while since I have heard it. I do like Duchess, Man of our Times, and Duke's Travels a lot, though. |
Posted By: Merrimack Mike
Date Posted: March 02 2017 at 08:38
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Duke's Travels/Dukes End are proggy, but they've never really done anything for me. They're prog, but not necessarily good prog. Misunderstanding is truly wretched. It's not even one of their better pop songs. It amazes me that a drummer could write a song so rhythmically static. Whether the rest of the album is prog depends, I guess, on your definition of progressive. Carefully crafted songs that relay a story--or meaning deeper than cloying love songs for a teenage audience--are progressive in my mind. Behind the Lines is a wonderful prog anthem, and Man of Our times and Cul-De-Sac contain some great instrumental playing. I'm also partial to Turn it on Again. What can I say: I have soft spot for drummers counting out time at the beginning of a song. I think the reason why so many progheads dislike Duke is the slick 80s sound of the album and not the songwriting itself. I certainly like Phil's actual playing over the drum machine, but it doesn't necessarily ruin songs for me. Tony's synthesizers sound thin, but he has always explored new keyboard sounds. Going back through the Genesis catalogue, I'm struck by how relatively little accoustic piano playing is found on their albums--the opening of a Firth of Fifth notwithstanding. |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: March 02 2017 at 09:57
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^What? No thoughts on Heathaze? ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: Merrimack Mike
Date Posted: March 02 2017 at 20:43
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Well, I don't care for Phil's vocal stylings on Heathaze. The emotions he pours into some of the verses don't seem to match the lyrics--at least in my head. For example, what's that bit about feeding the ducks instead supposed to mean? Phil tries to pack an emotional punch into that line, but it just falls flat to me. |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: March 02 2017 at 22:29
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Beware the fisherman who's casting out his line Into a dried up river bed, But don't try to tell him 'cos he won't believe you. Throw some bread to the ducks instead, it's easier that way. I feel like an alien, a stranger in an alien place. I don't know - not one of the more vague Genesis tunes out there. ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: Merrimack Mike
Date Posted: March 03 2017 at 11:51
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Ok, this is entirely subjective, but here's my analysis
Beware the fisherman who's casting out his line
Into a dried up river bed, Ok, these lines make sense. Love is like fishing. Watch out for someone who casts his line (looks for love) in a place where there are no fish (lovers, or or only one particular lover who is not interested) But don't try to tell him 'cos he won't believe you. The lover won't believe you that his/her love is unrequited. Throw some bread to the ducks instead, it's easier that way. Now the metaphor becomes mixed. We're no longer fishing, we're throwing bread to ducks. Who is supposed to throw the bread: the person who is without love or the person giving the advice? What is the bread supposed to represent? Are the ducks potential lovers? Of a different species? Maybe he's talking about prostitutes: when you're this careless about metaphors, anything is possible. I feel like an alien, a stranger in an alien place. Now we're on to metaphor number three. Again, who is the alien, the lover or the person giving advice? I wouldn't be so bothered by these lines if Phil didn't deliver them as if his life depended on them. |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: March 03 2017 at 13:04
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^The "bread to ducks" part meant, I think, that one can't tell a forlorn loser in love what to do about the situation, so make it simple on everyone and don't try. Duke was partially Collins' disclosure that he had been recently jilted by his then wife for another suitor, and between it and Face Value enough sentiment was expressed to justify the notion other than what Collins stated publically at the time. ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: Merrimack Mike
Date Posted: March 03 2017 at 13:42
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I see your point. The lyrics don't work for me, personally, because of the way they mix realistic writing and metaphors and because of the shifting perspectives. It sounds clumsy to me, but that doesn't mean it's objectively flawed. Heathaze was written by Banks, which might explain the shifting perspectives. |
Posted By: Enchlore
Date Posted: March 03 2017 at 15:28
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I like the "Duke Suite" songs, but the rest of the album doesn't really do anything for me. ------------- If you like King Crimson, come over to the KC Discord server! https://discord.gg/6AYBxBD |
Posted By: PrognosticMind
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 07:42
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One of my personal favorites. Awesome production and atmosphere for the time IMO. ------------- "A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me?" |
Posted By: miamiscot
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 08:19
| Duke has moments of intense greatness. The production was very trebly and thin but it's overall a very good album. The last Genesis album I love. (Although I like them all.) |
Posted By: RoeDent
Date Posted: March 09 2017 at 12:01
| I'm hoping my copy of Duke will be in tomorrow's post. |
Posted By: RoeDent
Date Posted: March 14 2017 at 13:16
| A couple of listens in, and I'm loving Duke! Certain tracks wouldn't be out of place on the Gabriel-era albums, they just have that kind of sound to them. And then you have the Duke Suite tying everything together. Fantastic music! |
Posted By: AZF
Date Posted: March 14 2017 at 16:35
| I like "Misunderstanding". The video is funny with them in Hawaiian shirts. Goofy and funny at the same time. |
Posted By: Rednight
Date Posted: March 14 2017 at 16:41
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^And shot for a few shekels up in Hollywood. ------------- "It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno |
Posted By: AZF
Date Posted: March 14 2017 at 16:52
With impressive rain special effects! |
Posted By: Progaholic2
Date Posted: May 28 2017 at 08:20
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I remember how depressed I felt when I first listened to Duke. Genesis were always reliable up to that point, great album after great album, they set the bar so high. The absolute nadia of that terrible album was Duchess... I could have cried, what the hell had happened, how could the mighty have fallen so far. It was the turning point, with the exception of the odd song, their albums got worse and worse and, of course, the unwashed masses loved everything they churned out.... even 'Whodunnit'! Pass the bucket. Have you noticed that all Genesis tribute bands cover the period up to Wind and Wuthering. None, not one, covers the Collins and his backing band phase. Eh, Phil?
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: May 31 2017 at 09:25
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^^^ I think In The Cage covered Behind the Lines when I saw them years ago at a Genesis convention, but beyond that yes, the tribute acts only cover what the 'real' fans want to hear most of all. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Mirror Image
Date Posted: May 31 2017 at 09:53
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Beyond Wind & Wuthering, Genesis were merely a shadow of their former self and Duke is no exception. I wish I was more positive about the direction they went post-Hackett, but I’m not. I’ll always be one of those fans that waves the flag for their earlier work. ------------- “Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: May 31 2017 at 11:33
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Duke is a wonderful album. I've always said its a beautiful blend of prog and a sophisticated 80's pop offering. I've got absolutely no criticisms for this album. I'm afraid I am quite useless in this thread, however I just wanted to convey my love for this album. If one ever gets the chance to listen to Duke in a 5.1 surround sound offering I really suggest doing so. It's very well mixed by Nick Davis. :) ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |