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Topic: Pet SoundsPosted By: ProgMetaller2112
Subject: Pet Sounds
Date Posted: November 23 2016 at 17:55
What are your thoughts on this Beach Boys release?Don't think I ever heard anybody talk about it on PA before. Thoughts?
------------- “War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart
Replies: Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 23 2016 at 20:38
^ We have a tiny but strong Beach Boys fanbase here, and yeah, that as well as all incarnations of Smile have been discussed extensively; even whether the band should be added to the database. The BBs were the crucial American art-rock band IMO, well before Zappa and deeply influential on the British.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 24 2016 at 01:20
Almost - I believe it is a predominantly retrospective appreciation.
In 1966 singles were still the dominant format for music and while Pet Sounds is now regarded as one of the first albums to challenge that, its success (in the UK at least - it was slightly more popular in the UK than the USA) was due entirely to the success of the four Top-5 singles they released in 1966 (Barbara Ann, Sloop John B, God Only Knows and Good Vibrations). For the British record buying public Pet Sounds was just a vehicle for two of those hit singles and I posit that the cult-like status that it has now was not that profound back in 1966 (in much the same way I have previously argued that Smile's near-mythical status is a much later phenomenon that had no effect at the time) and is a retrospective assessment of the album as a stand-alone entity. The influence of the Beach Boys on British music and musicians is more to do with those four singles than any Beach Boys album and that was mostly due to the close-harmony vocals and not the musical instrumentation and arrangements. [I know this is a persnickety splitting-hairs piece of pedantry, but in 1966 albums were nowhere near as "influential" as singles - singles buoyed-up album sales].
If you look at the success of the Beach Boys in Britain you'll notice that those tracks that sold well weren't the Californian surf & hot-rod songs. Britain (and Europe) does not have a surf scene or surf music and the Beach Boys were regarded as a purely American thing and something of a novelty. While much is made now of the Beatles/Beach Boys "rivalry" (if it existed at all, and I question that it did, I think there was some mutual respect between Wilson and McCartney but not much else) then it was not a sales and/or popularity rivalry in the same way as that between Beatles and the Stones, and even if it were just artistic "rivalry" it was non-existent until the Beatles released the non-singles album Rubber Soul (which Brian Wilson has said inspired him to record Pet Sounds).
However, Barbara Ann was the break-through song for the Beach Boys that broke their surf image over here (and Good Vibrations was the culmination of that success):
24
Beach Boys
Dance Dance Dance
Jan 1965
1
Beatles
Ticket To Ride
Apr 1965
27
Beach Boys
Help Me Rhonda
Jun 1965
1
Beatles
Help!
Jul 1965
26
Beach Boys
California Girls
Sep 1965
1
Beatles
Day Tripper / We Can Work It Out
Dec 1965
3
Beach Boys
Barbara Ann
Feb 1966
2
Beach Boys
Sloop John B
Apr 1966
1
Beatles
Paperback Writer
Jun 1966
2
Beach Boys
God Only Knows
Jul 1966
1
Beatles
Yellow Submarine / Eleanor Rigby
Aug 1966
1
Beach Boys
Good Vibrations
Nov 1966
Notice now the effect of Barbara Ann on their album chart positions from Feb 1966 onward (including the retrospective chart entry of Surfer Girl four years after its release):
1
Beatles
Help!
Aug 1965
17
Beach Boys
Surfin' USA
Sep 1965
1
Beatles
Rubber Soul
Dec 1965
3
Beach Boys
Beach Boys Party
Feb 1966
6
Beach Boys
Beach Boys Today
Apr 1966
2
Beach Boys
Pet Sounds
Jul 1966
4
Beach Boys
Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!)
Jul 1966
1
Beatles
Revolver
Aug 1966
2
Beach Boys
Best Of The Beach Boys
Nov 1966
7
Beatles
A Collection Of Beatles' Oldies
Dec 1966
13
Beach Boys
Surfer Girl
Mar 1967
1
Beatles
Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band
Jun 1967
3
Beach Boys
Best Of The Beach Boys Volume 2
Oct 1967
9
Beach Boys
Smiley Smile
Nov 1967
------------- What?
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: November 24 2016 at 01:38
Dean wrote:
Almost - I believe it is a predominantly retrospective appreciation.
In 1966 singles were still the dominant format for music and while Pet Sounds is now regarded as one of the first albums to challenge that, its success (in the UK at least - it was slightly more popular in the UK than the USA) was due entirely to the success of the four Top-5 singles they released in 1966 (Barbara Ann, Sloop John B, God Only Knows and Good Vibrations). For the British record buying public Pet Sounds was just a vehicle for two of those hit singles and I posit that the cult-like status that it has now was not that profound back in 1966 (in much the same way I have previously argued that Smile's near-mythical status is a much later phenomenon that had no effect at the time) and is a retrospective assessment of the album as a stand-alone entity. The influence of the Beach Boys on British music and musicians is more to do with those four singles than any Beach Boys album and that was mostly due to the close-harmony vocals and not the musical instrumentation and arrangements. [I know this is a persnickety splitting-hairs piece of pedantry, but in 1966 albums were nowhere near as "influential" as singles - singles buoyed-up album sales].
I buy that. It would be interesting to see their impact on musicians vs. listeners, and to what extent it was subconscious or overt. Of course the band was caught between the trad. rock 'n rollers who didn't like them and were still reeling from the plane crash that killed Holly, Valens, and Richardson, and the psych trippers who snickered at their teenybopper image.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 24 2016 at 02:53
Atavachron wrote:
I buy that. It would be interesting to see their impact on musicians vs. listeners, and to what extent it was subconscious or overt.
Something we can only speculate upon because even if a musician professes to be influenced by someone they rarely say exactly how that influence was employed. Subconscious or overt is a key point here as any analysis is going to be retrospective and fogged by hindsight because recognising a possible influence in a particular piece of music does not mean that it was a direct influence.
The problem here is there weren't any directly influenced Beach Boys inspired bands for us to call upon, so all and any influence is subvert and nuanced, which makes it all very subjective and speculative. Even if we pick on the vocal harmonies (and here many late 60s and early 70s bands adopted vocal harmonies), it's difficult to say that any one band's approach to harmony can be directly attributable to any other band.
Previously you called them Art Rock but here I would reduce that specifically to my pet subject: the closely related and often overlooked pop genre of Barque Pop, (i.e. Proto-Art Rock), which for me puts them in the same echelon as The Moody Blues, Procol Harum and The Move, though none of those can be said to be influenced by them.
Atavachron wrote:
Of course the band was caught between the trad. rock 'n rollers who didn't like them and were still reeling from the plane crash that killed Holly, Valens, and Richardson, and the psych trippers who snickered at their teenybopper image.
And I think you saw that divide within the Beatles between rocker John (and to some extent Ringo) and psych George (and some extent John) with Paul in the middle with his affectionate parody Back In The USSR.
------------- What?
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 24 2016 at 03:33
I can't stand the more well known tracks off this album - Wouldn't It Be Nice, Sloop John B, God Only Knows etc. on that alone, I've avoided this album like the plague.............
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 24 2016 at 06:00
Atavachron wrote:
^ We have a tiny but strong Beach Boys fanbase here, and yeah, that as well as all incarnations of Smile have been discussed extensively; even whether the band should be added to the database. The BBs were the crucial American art-rock band IMO, well before Zappa and deeply influential on the British.
well said my friend..
as far as the album itself... a well earned place near the very top of any thought out list of top albums ever recorded. Simply perfect...
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: November 24 2016 at 07:32
Tom Ozric wrote:
I can't stand the more well known tracks off this album - Wouldn't It Be Nice, Sloop John B, God Only Knows etc. on that alone, I've avoided this album like the plague.............
God Only Knows? One of the most sublimely beautiful songs ever recorded. Just listen to the ending...
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 24 2016 at 08:42
chopper wrote:
Tom Ozric wrote:
I can't stand the more well known tracks off this album - Wouldn't It Be Nice, Sloop John B, God Only Knows etc. on that alone, I've avoided this album like the plague.............
God Only Knows? One of the most sublimely beautiful songs ever recorded. Just listen to the ending...
god that song makes me weak in the knees... appeals to the real life hopeless romantic that only Raff knows
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: November 26 2016 at 04:42
Took me a while - a long while -but getting over the ubiquity of the singles, getting past the teeny bop image and the dreadful cover (how cheap can you get?) it's a fine album of music.
I suppose one has to get past everyone else's imposition (radio, peers) and make your own decision as to the music.
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: November 27 2016 at 15:51
Well....my brother and I had the original singles on 45 that were released back in the day but never bought the album...wish I had because nice copies are worth some bucks these days. At any rate it's got some nice tracks but I don't understand all the praise about it being groundbreaking ,etc. It has never impressed me in that way and I didn't even own a copy until I bought one on cd about 20 years ago.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: AZF
Date Posted: November 27 2016 at 16:27
I haven't heard it for ages, and even my ex left me for a Beach Boys fan! My favourite album is Wild Honey and my favourite song This Whole World.
Pet Sounds deserves to be mentioned in a forum about Prog. Sgt. Pepper would probably not of existed in the form it did. I was thinking about the orchestra and then remember I Just Wasn't Made For These Times and then remembered the band dropping away to a beautiful beach of orchestration on I'm Waiting For The Day.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 28 2016 at 15:57
McCartney said that God Only Knows was the greatest song ever written, and I believe that the band morphed into art/pop with Pet Sounds, along with some unrecognized nods towards proto prog. Didn't we have this discussion before?
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 01:15
^ Many times, but this thread is an appreciation thread not an esoteric discussion about what genre it is or whether it was proto-proto-prog, I shouldh't have responded to David's claim that it was "deeply influential on the British" but you know me...
------------- What?
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 02:02
........I can be musically 'experimental' without anyone even knowing........ Yeah, it's early work and successful at that, but for me, the songs are just dated dross........and I don't mind The Beach Boys - my fave albums are the old Pickwick vinyls I have of Little Deuce Coupe and Surfer Girl. The song entitled 'Your Summer Dream' is my absolute fave from this pack. Also, It's Just A Matter Of Time from the 1985 album is special to me.........screw Meshuggah, screw Opeth, screw Zappa's Doo Wop...........I value much of The Beach Boys' contribution to the development of music........
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 02:07
Tom, did you ever get The Beach Boys `Today' album?
`Good to My Baby', `Please Let Me Wonder', `Do You Wanna Dance?', `When I Grow Up (to be a Man)', `She Knows Me Too Well'....I always thought this album wiped the floor with `Pet Sounds' (which I still do like).
Oh, and the lightly psychedelic `Friends' is completely charming too!
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 02:35
^ No - on all fronts Mike - don't even know those titles !! Still, some of these BB songs make me wanna puke........
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 02:51
Come now, Tom, they're not all `Sloop John B'!
Would you not find these any better?
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 03:17
I grew up with The Beach Boys..........seriously, there's an LP that goes NOWHERE, near my collection. It an early Beach Boys Live album. I admire that Brian Wilson plays bass.............. To me, Wilson and McCartney are on par (revolutionary in their time) but bog-standard when all things considered.........
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 04:11
Dean wrote:
^ Many times, but this thread is an appreciation thread not an esoteric discussion about what genre it is or whether it was proto-proto-prog, I shouldh't have responded to David's claim that it was "deeply influential on the British" but you know me...
Was not my post a show of appreciation that was germane to a website dedicated to prog? And when did discussing genres become an a esoteric exercise? If PA is composed of nothing but the obscure, then I'm in the wrong place.
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 13:19
Not surprisingly, this was the first Beach Boys album I listened to and it's a toss up between this and The Smile Sessions as my favourite of theirs. Those, and a custom compilation I made of their best 1965 material.
------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 23:26
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
^ Many times, but this thread is an appreciation thread not an esoteric discussion about what genre it is or whether it was proto-proto-prog, I shouldh't have responded to David's claim that it was "deeply influential on the British" but you know me...
Was not my post a show of appreciation that was germane to a website dedicated to prog? And when did discussing genres become an a esoteric exercise? If PA is composed of nothing but the obscure, then I'm in the wrong place.
This thread is in http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=41" rel="nofollow - General Music Discussions ergo this site's forum is not wholly dedicated to prog and therefore this thread is not about Prog, in the past you have professed to not liking the Beach Boys so I do wonder how this morphed into an appreciation of Pet Sounds. The problem with discussions of genre is that they only end well when the person who triggered the discussion gets their own way because that's the only way you can get them to stop going on about it; such discussions are not esoteric exercises, they are esoteric discussions.
------------- What?
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 30 2016 at 08:12
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
^ Many times, but this thread is an appreciation thread not an esoteric discussion about what genre it is or whether it was proto-proto-prog, I shouldh't have responded to David's claim that it was "deeply influential on the British" but you know me...
Was not my post a show of appreciation that was germane to a website dedicated to prog? And when did discussing genres become an a esoteric exercise? If PA is composed of nothing but the obscure, then I'm in the wrong place.
This thread is in http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=41" rel="nofollow - General Music Discussions ergo this site's forum is not wholly dedicated to prog and therefore this thread is not about Prog, in the past you have professed to not liking the Beach Boys so I do wonder how this morphed into an appreciation of Pet Sounds. The problem with discussions of genre is that they only end well when the person who triggered the discussion gets their own way because that's the only way you can get them to stop going on about it; such discussions are not esoteric exercises, they are esoteric discussions.
The confusion may be my fault, so I'll be clear. I like the Pet Sounds album but little of the Smile related material and have said so. Perhaps that's where the confusion comes in.
Regardless if this is a non prog appreciation thread. It concerns music and the possibility that the OP is a prog fan is quite high. Associating the Beach Boys with proto prog would be a sign of appreciation. Unless someone does not like them, then the opposite would hold true. I'll rely on my calculated guess that the OP is a prog fan and stand fast.
Btw, Beach Boys forever! Brian Wilson is a genius! (Just clear up any lingering doubts.)
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 30 2016 at 08:25
Smile sessions and Surf's Up are actually my top BB albums, but Pet Sounds has some wonderful songs. To think I hated the very sound of this band when I was growing up. It was getting into prog that made me appreciate the Beach Boys. Believe it or not.
Heroes & Villains and Good Vibrations are two of the best pop songs ever written IMO.
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 01 2016 at 04:23
Blacksword wrote:
Smile sessions and Surf's Up are actually my top BB albums, but Pet Sounds has some wonderful songs. To think I hated the very sound of this band when I was growing up. It was getting into prog that made me appreciate the Beach Boys. Believe it or not.
Heroes & Villains and Good Vibrations are two of the best pop songs ever written IMO.
I consider Surf's Up and Sunflower to be really solid (mostly) post Brian Wilson BB albums. Non the less, they are both excellent albums and demonstrated that the BBs could make some good music without relying on Brian. Good Vibrations, naturally, is the highlight of the Smiley Smile album and is the group's highpoint as well. Except for the song Surf's Up, intended for the Smile album, there's not much else of that material that thrills me. My reasons are too numerous and too lengthy to explain why, but I feel that they are valid.
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Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: December 01 2016 at 09:42
SteveG wrote:
Except for the song Surf's Up, intended for the Smile album, there's not much else of that material that thrills me. My reasons are too numerous and too lengthy to explain why, but I feel that they are valid.
I'd like to hear those reasons anyway, just out of curiosity.
------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 01 2016 at 14:11
KingCrInuYasha wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Except for the song Surf's Up, intended for the Smile album, there's not much else of that material that thrills me. My reasons are too numerous and too lengthy to explain why, but I feel that they are valid.
I'd like to hear those reasons anyway, just out of curiosity.
Basically, its because Brian lost the harmonious vibe he projected with Pet Sounds' music and Tony Asher's wonderfully optimistic lyrics, albeit viewed from a teenager's POV. The Smile material was originally supposed to be a "fun album" with cornball vocal gags and nonsense lyrics that quickly morphed into something else. Van Dyke Parks lyrics from Surf's Up ,"Dim chandelier awaken me, hung velvet overtaken me" rings more in tune with the song Grand Hotel by Procol Harum. It's a world and 180 degrees away from the song Wouldn't It Be Nice, that leads off Pet Sounds, or anything that sounds "fun" or "humorous" that Brian proposed for the Smile album. The fact that album was pre-titled Smile was due to it's songs being so funny "that they will make you smile." When an artist goes off track, a train wreck usually follows. And Smile was a train wreck.
Plus the fact that Wilson mentally couldn't finish the album gives me pause to think that his brain was not firing on all eight musically and emotionally, even early into starting the Smile recordings. This is conjecture on my part, but it guides my feelings regarding the Smile material. The Smile material was also highly mythologized, IMO, into being something much greater than it actually was.
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: December 02 2016 at 00:07
I first I had no idea what you were talking about when you were referring to "cornball vocal gags", but then I remembered The Smile Sessions came with some tracks that had Brian trapped in a piano and microphone, along with other such novelties.
I have to agree, to an extent, about the over-mythologizing of Smile. As excellent as the songs are - including "Heroes And Villains", "Cabinessence" "Wonderful", "Surf's Up", "Vegetables", "Holidays", "Wind Chimes", "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and, of course, "Good Vibrations" - holy , the album was over-hyped to an insane degree, and this was well before the project imploded. I'm reading the Catch A Wave bio on Brian Wilson, and not only did Capitol print about a half million album covers before the there was even an album, but there was supposed to be film projects, comedy works, mini films and so on.
It also didn't help that Brian made the mistake of releasing an unfinished version of "Heroes And Villains" as a single and it was a miracle it even got to #12 in the first place (well, that, and it was following "Good Vibrations").
------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: December 02 2016 at 01:39
Vegetables is a rubbish song. Never did like that.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: December 02 2016 at 04:20
Tom Ozric wrote:
Vegetables is a rubbish song. Never did like that.
Yes, that was one of Brian's humorous songs that stayed mostly intact from it's inception. And frankly, it wasn't that humorous. Another chink in the Smile armor.
There's also early alt version of Heroes and Villains that pauses while Brian interjects another supposably humorous line "You're under arrest" followed by a ricocheted bullet sound. Again, not very funny, IMHO.