To kick it off, my top 5 albums:

1. The Snow Goose (both studio albums and the live-version on A Live Record)

2. Mirage (my first prog-album)

3. Rain Dances (i love the autumn-feel to it)

4. Nude (excellent)

5. Moonmadness (another flawless album)

 

My top 5 (instrumental) songs:

1. La Princesse Perdue

2. Rhayader/Rhayader Goes to Town

3. Skylines (the best fusion/prog instrumental I know)

4. Lunar Sea (2nd best fusion/prog instrumental I know)

5. Fritha Alone (one of the most beautiful piano pieces I know)

 

My top 5 songs with vocals:

1. Lady Fantasy

2. Never Let Go

3. Drafted

4. The White Rider

5. Echoes

 

Top 5 line-up:

1. Bardens/Latimer/Ferguson/Ward

2. Bardens/Latimer/Sinclair/Ward/Collins

3. Latimer/Bass/Clement/Leblanc

4. Latimer/Bass/Stewart/Scherpenzeel

5. Latimer/Bass/Hart/Scherpenzeel/Clement

 

Top 4 bassplayers:

1. Colin Bass

2. Doug Ferguson

3. Richard Sinclair

4. David Paton

 

Top 5 keyboardists:

1. Peter Bardens

2. Ton Scherpenzeel

3. Guy Leblanc

4. Kit Watkins

5. Jan Schelhaas

 

Top 5 drummers:

1. Andy Ward

2. Denis Clement

3. Dave Stewart

4. Simon Phillips (on Sasquatch)

5. Paul Burgess

 

Top 5 vocalists:

1. Andy Latimer (yes!)

2. Richard Sinclair

3. Colin Bass

4. Peter Bardens

5. Guy Leblanc (on The Paris Collection)

As far as later Camel, I picked up a vinyl of Rain Dances a while back and listen to it from time to time. Aside from that, the song Echoes from Breathless is a favourite of mine (don't care for the rest of the album) and Rajaz is about as good as it gets for albums released by a band 20+ years after their debut. A little (controversial?) opinion of mine is that the 2013 re-recording of The Snow Goose is far, far superior to the original. 

All in all I'd say that they weren't necessarily one of the best or most consistent classic bands, but they're still a great reference point in the genre and were perhaps one of the best bands of all time for crafting beautiful melodies. I also find that Latimer is the best of the famous prog flautists; he absolutely smokes Anderson and Gabriel.

The two Snow Gooses are recorded in completely different line-ups and have different arrangments. I never mind a re-recording, if it's done right. I also enjoy Less is More by Marillion (great stuff!).

Sometimes a prefer a live-rendition of a full concept-album, but a studio-re-recording is fine by me.

Back to Camel. I dislike the sterile production of Dust and Dreams and Harbour of Tears, but both albums were played and recorded live in its entirety. You can find them on Never Let Go and Coming of Age. So, the songs and arrangments are great, they just needed a different productional approach.

..and quite rightly so, as the album was issued just before the Autumn started

Lewian wrote: Just to mention a few things... 2) The Live Record version of Never Let Go is just so stunning. I love the song anyway but the solos and the rhythm section Ward/Sinclair are as good as it gets.

I agree. I'd also like to say that Mel Collins' additions to this and other songs on that album take them to another level.

Lewian wrote: 3) I actually love Breathless. True there's the odd downer on it but it has so much variety and such a positive mood and a number of tracks are among their best - and it's still Sinclair/Ward, I think I'm addicted to them.

I like Breathless too. Apart from the "bunnies are bouncing" song which is a bit twee, there's some great stuff on there. Echoes, Summer Lightning and the title track especially.

He's cool too!..  Plays an awesome bass as well!...

 

Camel sounds more like a band, and it's almost retro-sounding.

 

Dust and Dreams and Harbour of Tears suffer from a sterile production and a depressing mood (altough i like it)

Rajaz sounds like a guitarplayer's solo-album. Heavy progressive rock with lots and lots of guitar.

 

Nod and a Wink is the first album in years to feature two vocalists, lots of flute, lots and lots of orchestral keybaords, even drumsolos. It could have been the album that followed Moonmadness.

Who underrates Camel?

Almost anyone into progrock knows the band, and have at least one favorite album.
I really don't like the term 'underrated'.

With Mirage at 17, Moonmadness 19th and The Snow Goose in 50th place on PA's user generated top 100 who exactly is it that underrates them? Rock journalists? Punks? Adolescents? They're surely not underrated by prog fans. 

If you don't wat to dicuss your opinion, don't put in a forum.

I still absolutely don't agree that Camel is underrated.

Maybe we just have to stop this conversation, so maintain the peace, adn talk about Camel's music.

Thanks. As you said "The Snow Goose in 50th place on ...". Why 50th? 50th place is a fair place for "The Snow Goose" in your opinion but I don't think like you. This mean there are 49 albums that better than "The Snow Goose". I really like to know about those 49 albums! 

Agree. This may make misunderstanding (my English isn't good enough I guess!). We love Camel and this is important.  

Maybe that's why the albums are rated slightly lower than others.

On the other hand, Camel never had a hitsingle, as with other bands, they all had 1 or more hitsucces.

Honestly , I don't know why . You mentioned to a very good point about Vocalists. Vocals is important and I agree with you but it's can't be "The Only" reason. Camel create great stuffs . They have many Masterpieces. Their music is Technical and Emotional . Andy's Guitar sound and style is unique and impressive. BUT they don't have enough! fans. I still stand on my opinion about their fans number (underrated! or something like it).

Honestly, I'm not sure why people really complain about the vocals on the classic Camel records; they give exactly what the music asks for. Could you imagine a voice like Jon Anderson trying to sing The White Rider or Peter Gabriel trying to belt out Song Within A Song? I'm laughing just thinking about how ridiculous that would sound. Latimer is a perfect singer for the band. His voice is every bit as smooth and subdued as the music he sings on top of.

I myself am a huge fan of the Andy's voice (and Colin's aswell).
To be honest, there's a certain style to their voices.

When you don't know wich bandmember sings wich song, it's hard to tell if Doug, Peter or Andy is singing (on Camel or Moonmadness).

The same goes for Nude. Is it Andy or Colin singing? Hard to say.

Richard Sinclair was a nice vocalist for the band on Rain Dances and Breathless, sharing vocals with Andy. It works very well, but didn't bring the band huge success.

The ratings even go down, when compared to the first four albums.

 

You were right about Chris Rainbow. He just didn't fit the band. The same goes for the one-time-only vocals of Doug Patton (on Heroes).

 

Don't get me wrong, I never stated that Andy couldn't sing. I like his warm and soothing voice.

Why they don't have big number of fans in PA ?! Many of Progressive Rock fans ignore Camel easily. Many of Prog fans never count Camel as a "Great Band" or "Prog Giant" in Prog history , bands like King Crimson , Genesis , Yes , ELP , Pink Floyd , ... and I don't know WHY?!. 

I think it's an exercise in futility to try to figure out why one's favorite bands didn't hit it big.  It's just people's tastes and the effectiveness of the promotion.  If I was to thuink about it, it seems like my liking a band is the kiss of death, because lots of my favorites remained obscure or missed at sustained success while it seems like the bands I didn't care for as much went onward and upward!  But part of that might be that too much success can taint a group, not that they gio downhill, but just that they seem to lose some of that cachet that goes with obscurity.  So enjoy Camel I say, and, if you must, think about how relatively popular they were when compared to anybody but the biggest acts, with something like 9 consecutive albums on the UK album charts, right through 1984, something not many prog bands did, while staying prog

It featured 10 British acts, one of which was our Camel (ok, so it was number 10, but still...), apparently based on time in the UK album charts

if you want to go right to Camel, they are around minute 6

I would say that the last albums Camel have done since setting up Camel Productions, Andy's voice is the best we've heard from him.  His singing warrants each track from those albums. All 100% Andy's voice.  I'm really surprised how Colin can sing like Andy, as done in most concerts.  He has earned himself the honour on certain tracks being good at what he does.  The pair go well together and while Colin can take all vocal duties to Camel in concerts,  one track will always be Andy's and thats Lady Fantasy.

I agree, the music and vocalist suit the music.  Like what you said about Jon Anderson and Peter Gabriel  singing on a Camel track, would not work.  Also on those earlier albums they did, it was not all Latimer but Peter Bardens.  They Both shared the same style with those leading vocalist duties.  Peter's singing voice is nothing like his voice in Camel, as  some of you might well know hearing Peter's solo's!...

O666 wrote: I am a huge fan of Camel. Unfortunately Camel is underrated band and I don't know why?!

I agree with Kingsnake, while references are often used in rating other bands new music with their reviews in DPRP and on this site Prog/Archives,  you will always see Camel mostly used.   Had Camel been more popular in the 70s and should of been on Top of the Pops or other TV shows as regular guests, I'm sure a lot more people would know more about this band.  Genesis were not that popular, until they kept being seen on TV shows and became world wide success with loads of hits.  The same goes with Yes, King Crimson and ELP.  All these bands had huge hits and appeared on TV shows.  Camel never made a hit and stayed with their albums , they only appeared in 2 common UK shows.  So not being able to have the common radio airing as with the other bands I mentioned.  It's a shame really,  had they made a few hits, Camel would be known by more people and even hear their music on local radio stations.

You right about ELP   . Perhaps Camel beating ELP in some polls in PA , but its not a good measure IMO. Thanks 

 

If and when Camel had their top 40-hit with (let's say) Remote Romance or No Easy Answer, what alternative future would have been for the band. Then maybe their label (Decca) would've been happy with the band, and kept them on their roster, only pushing Andy to write more hits (and if not, the label would provide outside writers to produce hits).

I want to back to Camel's music. What do you think about ICE ? Do you like it? I really like to know Camel fans opinions about ICE.

Sometimes I like it, but most of the times it tries to hard. It's even boring. I like Lunar Sea much more, when discussing 10 minute instrumental epics.

 

With Ice, the band set a new standard, and after that Andy wrote more long (low tempo) songs with a long guitarsolo: Lawrence, The Hour Candle, For Today.

I think I like The Hour Candle the best, but the liveversion on Coming of Age.

But rather I like songs with more dynamics and changes like Lunar Sea, Sahara, Chord Change, Liggin' at Louis, Arubaluba, Skylines, etc.

I see where you are coming from but I prefer Ice to all of those.  Latimer's technical guitar prowess improved dramatically from their first album to Moonmadness, and Ice is one of the best expressions of that  Ice is not as warm as some of those other tracks you mentioned, but I gather that's intentional given its theme.

I need to go back and listen to Sahara but of the ones you mention I think Chord Changes is the best.  Lunar Sea was the only track on Moonmadness I didn't connect with that well, and it's actually the lead solo towards the end that is the part that works least for me.   I actually prefer the workouts on a few of the Rain Dances and Breathless tracks like "One of these Days I'll get an early Night" or perhaps "Summer Lightning".

That's remarkable, these bands are all on Progarchives. I surprised me to see, that these bands sold hundreds of millions of albums worlwide. I can't say Camel has that many sales.

What that means is this: when people are new to the genre, they try the bands they know the best, and that will never be Camel (or Gentle Giant or Barclay James Harvest), regardless of their musical talents.

When people are already into progressive rock, of course they now bands like Camel. So is the band underrated? Maybe worldwide, but nog amongst prog-enthousiasts.

Actually I talked about Prog Rock fans not worldwide market or something like it. I mean , they don't have large number of Progressive Rock fans ! IMO they deserve to have more fans in Progressive Rock scene. Perhaps I mistake about it. I compare number of topics about them or related to them in PA forum with another Prog Rock bands like Gentle Giant or BJH . Most of 70's Progressive Rock great bands (Not 6-7 Prog Giants like KC,Yes,Genesis...!) have more fans than Camel. 

I'm not agree with you completely. You right about their debuting lately. Till 1973 , Progressive Rock music giants , released some masterpieces and made a new stream of popular Rock music. Camel never be a clone or copy band. They made their own style. Their music is beautiful, Emotional and Technical but they can't found too many fans. There are some Prog Rock bands that start after 1973 and found too many fans more than Camel. 

Exactly. Stiil, I couId imagine Jon Anderson doing a couple of the most beautiful tunes, he did make Paul Simon´s "America" stellar. But Roger Waters singing "Lullabye" ? Ain´t gonna happen ?

 

It was many years after leaving school that I accidently brought this album at a a car boot sale because I loved the look of the cover and when I played it some wonderful memories of this teacher and primary school came flooding back. It remains to this day my favourite album.

"The Snow Goose" is a superb album by any means indeed. It´s a symphony, and of one most succesfull in fusion of a rock group and an symphony orchestra, my top 3 to be exact.

I have similar memories of great music lessons back in the day.

My music teacher, an elder woman played "A Passion Play" in its entirety in a music lesson spring 1974. I was still a kid but I liked the music... Three years later she played "Songs from the Wood", full album again. No interruptions ,no breaks just a brief introduction to the music and artist, nothing else. We missed nothing, she just let the music take over. We kids actually listened to the record without any trouble. I went stunned and became instantly a fan. The best music lesson. What an intelligent and nice person she was. 

She was "The Teacher"    My fav Tull tune ever since.

I heard the touring band consists of Andy, Colin, Denis Clement and Pete Jones.

Also Andy has a hernia and his health is not all that great, wich means he will site down during the concert. I think it's very sympathetic that he continues the tour for the fans. Such a great guy, and I wish him the best and I hope he doesn't have too much pain.

I just saw them here in Warsaw yesterday (that was my 2nd time seeing them) and I can assure you that you're in for a treat! And, yes, Andy was sitting on an armchair for the whole gig but he did perform great on the guitar and flute! And Colin was in a great shape too! I also really liked that blind keyboardist/vocalist/saxophonist that was with them (can't recall his name).

This is what Andy said about his illness: "Some of You noticed I'm sitting. It's the first time in 50 years. I had an accident in Japan, then I had an accident in Turkey, then I had a accident in Israel... But I am here anyway!" and the audience cheered him.

And today I'm going to see... Yes (feat ARW) + SBB!

But Bardend did a lot of stuff after Camel, wich is not very interesting. So it's more the sum of the parts I guess.

But Andy continued to gather great musicians and songwriters around him, and there are some really great albums in the seventies (Raindances), eighties (Nude and Stationairy Traveller), nineties (Dust and Dreams, Harbour of Tears, Rajaz) and present day (Nod and a Wink).

So to write Camel of after the departure of Bardens, is not a smart move, if you want to discover great progrockmusic :D

I don't go to concerts much (personals reasons, no need to elaborate), but now that I have the opportunity, i bought a ticket for Camel, Gov't Mule and Fish for this year to come. Let's see what 2018 brings us.

But first Camel, and the 6th is my birthday, so it's going to be exxxxxtra special. :D

I agree 100%    

I hope so.   Really love Peter Jone's work.   Would love to see him on a Camel album.  

I noticed that I havent listened to Dust and Dreams and Harbour of Tears a lot, so I listened to those two today, to get in the mood.

I will listen to Moonmadness all day tomorrow. Or maybe that's overkill.

I have that to. That music makes me cry. I can get very emotional of beautiful music. 

Hah! It's a pity I didn't know. I live nearby the club BTW.

I really like Mirage, The Snow Goose and Moonmadness but nothing else has sounded all that great to me.

Nude is too 80's and Breathless has one good song.

What am I missing here? I know I should love Camel.

Why don't I?

No you shouldn't. You're absolutely free to love what you love and only that.

I've got to say, I can actually understand why some people don't like that much of Camel or even find them boring. They're certainly hardly innovative or adventurous or actually "progressive" (in the true sense of the word). Whenever I read negative reviews about Camel albums, I think "they have a point". Camel to me works on a very personal, emotional and subjective level. I find it hard to explain what makes me feel at home in their music. OK, there's the occasional obvious musical highlight that I'd really expect music lovers to appreciate (the highest in my view is the "Live Record" version of "Never Let Go") and Latimer is a true master of the melodic guitar. Still, by and large I tend to think that they speak to you on some subconscious emotional level or they don't, and if they don't, there's little you can do.

 

That's why I like less progressive/innovative groups like Camel, Barclay James Harvest, Moody Blues, Eloy, etc.

Pure because they appeal to me. And I am a romantic, and all these bands have a romanticism written all over them.

Camel are highly criticized for lacking vocally with no great singers. If you need singing in your prog then go listen to VDDG or Genesis. 

It does surprise me that prog heads dismiss Camel in the album reviews and that they don't receive as wide celebration as KC or Yes - Camel should be celebrated for being able to stick with the same lineup for more then one album if anything. 

One of the great qualities that Andy Latimer possess's,  is the ability to keep the Camel sound alive.  Despite many band changes through it's time, he focuses on great musician ship and had the best including Phil Collins, Caravan members,  plus others great members of suberbs bands.   

Sadly when when Pete left the band on his own accord,  Pete wanted the band to change direction and did not get on too well with Andy in this direction...  I love Pete's work and have all his albums,  but this to me is not Camel.  Andy has since regretted this,  and probably could of sorted this bitter row over his partnership ...  But since then , a lot of dedication has gone into a lot of past members work into Camel,  including Peter Bardens.

I'm very pleased with this current line up and you can probably say that Colin Bass  holds the record for the next longest member after Camel's founder member Andy Latimer,  named after the band  The Brew. 

Pete Jones and  Denis Clement hold a great foundation for what's hoping for another great new album, I hope!!...

He has been with the band since 1979!!! He only didn't play on Single Factor and Stationairy Traveller.

He also an important vocalist for the band.

I understand people long for the original line-up, but even bands that keep their line-up intact make terrible albums (Queen, Golden Earring, Rush, etc.)

So that's not the point. Also if you listen to Keats (Bardens's project after Camel) you can hear the same soft-pop as on Breathless. At least I Can See Your House From Here has a lot of energy and fun in it.

It was just the times: 1978-1981 were difficult years for progbands to release epic symphonic songs.

If you look at Saga, Rush, Toto, Chicago; they all shortened their songs and went with a pop-structure and they survived.

At least Camel had the guts to release Nude, wich is a conceptalbums in 1981!!!

The only other band with the same guts I can think of is Eloy.

But, I'm diverting. I hope that people who love the first line up would at least give the albums Dust & Dreams, Harbour of Tears, Rajaz and A Nod and a Wink a try.

The production of Nod and a Wink is superb and it sounds just like the Moonmadnes-days.

Maybe I came off a little strong about my lineup opinion before, just to be clear I think that Camel has always had great musicians and I find all their albums quite enjoyable. Nude is a great album!

Especially First Light and Unevensong. But did you know that Andy played some of the bassparts on Raindances.

Raindances is a weird little gem. Unlike Camel ever did and they never ventured into this kind of jazzrock-kinda thing. Only some songs on Breathless come close.

.

MortSahlFan wrote: I like Camel, but not as much as I used to.. I guess that's the true test.

 

 

Funny thing with Camel they always had that Jazzy vibe and edge to their music. Check out their first album especially the track Six Ate. That tune is just glorious to listen to. It was one of their strong points but they never overplayed it.