Future Days: Krautrock and the Building Of Germany
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Topic: Future Days: Krautrock and the Building Of Germany
Posted By: SteveG
Subject: Future Days: Krautrock and the Building Of Germany
Date Posted: February 10 2015 at 14:41
Future Days: Krautrock and the Building Of Modern Germany by David Stubbs.With the recent passing of the great Edgar Froese, this exhaustive and definitive book recording the birth, growth and flowering of one of Progressive Rock's most stellar genres could not have come at a more appropriate time. While not centering expressly on Froese (fear not as an entire chapter is dedicated to Tangerine Dream), the nucleus of the Krautrock genre goes hand in hand with the post social and cultural thoughts and reactions of the German musicians as well as exploring how the post war zeitgeist fed into the music itself. Just a few of the bands that are featured in this exhaustive study include chapters on Amon Duul, Can, Neu!, Faust, Kraftwork and, as I've already stated, Tangerine Dream. This is a thought provoking work as well as being scholarly and well researched. I simply cannot recommend this book enough to both casual and serious fans of German electronic music. 5/5 stars.
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Replies:
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 12 2015 at 09:26
Hi,
Just found it on Amazon ... thanks ... on it.
Within a month we will likely see a book or two on Edgar Froese, I am willing to bet!
The only thing that is weird is how silent the music folks in Germany are, other than a few words here and there. Manuel Gottsching is the only one that has done anything significant and neat!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Posted By: jacksiedanny
Date Posted: February 12 2015 at 09:32
Mosho:
you wants the Greek's book on Krautrock.
Lotta piccies.
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Posted By: Guy Guden
Date Posted: February 13 2015 at 03:10
This is just me folks, so I beg your pardon... but... from January 27th, 1974 on till 2000 plus, I had the pleasure of introducing to commercial radio many artists from Germany. NEVER in any of those broadcasts did I refer to this genre of music as Krautrock. I found the term a cheap and demeaning way of categorizing a foreign style of music to less perceptive Western buyers. Otherwise PFM, Banco and Le Orme should be Woprock, Yellow Magic Orchestra and Acid Mothers Temple Niprock, all British bands Limeyrock or Limerock for 2 sylla ballet dancers, etc. etc. :)X.
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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: February 13 2015 at 04:28
Hence why I refer to that movement as "Kosmische Musik", which is what the Teutons themselves call it.
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 13 2015 at 11:47
Guy Guden wrote:
...
Otherwise PFM, Banco and Le Orme should be Woprock, Yellow Magic Orchestra and Acid Mothers Temple Niprock, all British bands Limeyrock or Limerock for 2 sylla ballet dancers, etc. etc.
:)X. |
Shhhhhhhhhhh Guy ... psssssstttt ..... if you mention a country here on PA, they will immediately say it's not "progressive". If you use a nickname, they will discuss it as "progressive". Shhhhhh!!!!! Funny, I never called Herzog, Weiss, Wenders or Handke ... krautfilm ... either! or krauttheater! Or Banco and Ange will never be progressive because they don't use "english"!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: February 13 2015 at 12:45
I don't care for the name and never use it to describe the style of music. I have many albums by several 70s German bands and list them regularly on the what are you listening to thread. I've never used the name in the comments I post with the album cover.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 13 2015 at 12:50
^If I wrote the book I would have called it Post War Teutonic Rock Groupen Music. But it wasn't up to me. And for the record, PA designates this genre as K****rock.
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Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: February 13 2015 at 13:24
SteveG wrote:
^If I wrote the book I would have called it Post War Teutonic Rock Groupen Music. But it wasn't up to me. And for the record, PA designates this genre as K****rock.
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I hear what you're saying, you didn't make up the name. I see it used all over the music related sites on the internet and I have no real problem with it, I just never got into the habit of using it.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 13 2015 at 13:51
Most German musicians including the ones who were there at the very beginning have absolutely no quarrels with the name. Most fans of the style, including the native speakers, feel similarly - at least the ones I've spoken to. Then again, if you're from an older generation I can see how this issue can be somewhat disrespectful. I remember talking to my dad about an area of town we lived in when I was a small kid. The newspapers called it a 'ghetto' as most other folks visiting the place would. My dad got furious because he knows the word from WWII - not having a clue as to how the word has evolved over time. Krautrock may have started out as a derogatory term, but it has since then turned into quite the opposite.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Posted By: TeleStrat
Date Posted: February 13 2015 at 14:54
SteveG wrote This is a thought provoking work as well as being scholarly and well researched. I simply cannot recommend this book enough to both casual and serious fans of German electronic music. 5/5 stars.
[/QUOTE]
I guess we got off on a name thing. Back to the book. Is it specifically about electronic music or does it discuss other styles like Birth Control, Gift, Guru Guru, etc?
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 13 2015 at 15:44
^Yes indeed. Even if these groups are not prominently featured, they certainly get coverage.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 13 2015 at 15:46
Guldbamsen wrote:
Most German musicians including the ones who were there at the very beginning have absolutely no quarrels with the name. Most fans of the style, including the native speakers, feel similarly - at least the ones I've spoken to.Then again, if you're from an older generation I can see how this issue can be somewhat disrespectful. I remember talking to my dad about an area of town we lived in when I was a small kid. The newspapers called it a 'ghetto' as most other folks visiting the place would. My dad got furious because he knows the word from WWII - not having a clue as to how the word has evolved over time. Krautrock may have started out as a derogatory term, but it has since then turned into quite the opposite. |
Thanks for that clarification, David. I was starting to feel politically incorrect instead of generally incorrect.
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Posted By: Guy Guden
Date Posted: February 13 2015 at 20:58
That's interesting Guldbamsen, because my experience has been the exact opposite. In the '70s up to 1982, when I was in Munich obtaining footage of German musicians for SPACE PIRATE VIDEO, everyone in the music business HATED the term. Record label owners, producers, members of Amon Duul, they loathed the English importers slapping those "Krautrock" labels on the records. You may be right about the Old School feeling, however. It is a term, based on a WW2 stereotype, of a defeated, inferior enemy nation. Unfair to many. Like Werner Herzog said, "We are a nation without Fathers. Only Grandfathers." So put away those labels for Ange and Magma and Heldon that say Frogrock. :)X.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 14 2015 at 10:00
^In all fairness to David, I'm quite a bit older have some mental stigma attached to the word, but it has been in use for years in many media and magazine publications without any serious backlash that I know of. I respect your feelings on this matter, but I doubt that any who loves German electronic rock would use the term Krautrock with any malicious intent. Should the term it be avoided if possible? I think so, but the part about it being possible will be very difficult until the term becomes outdated in worldwide media sites, books, magazines and other publications.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 14 2015 at 10:15
I do think it's a generational thing. Like I mentioned earlier, I have quite a few German friends (old and young) who are into the style, and they tend to use Krautrock much like people use the word prog. I very much doubt whether anyone in this day and age instantly thinks of WWII whenever they come across the expression. Maybe if they just caught Saving Private Ryan on the tube Heck, if anything, there seems to be a lot of upcoming bands who think of 'Krautrock' as a badge of honour (just like many on here think of 'Prog', which is rather futile). There are soooo many bands (pop, rock and even those new tricky Folktronica outfits) who employ the motorik groove of yesteryear, slap on some cold 70s synths and wham bam thank you mam: you've got some Krautrock! (or so they think) Yeah....not really....but it is a highly sought out sticker, which then becomes just a sticker.....and that is definitely not what the music is and was about.
Anyway, let's get your thread back on track Steve. I wish I had more time for reading, but when I finally find a little peace and quiet, I tend to reach for Kerouac, Hesse or Huxley instead. Maybe I need to get out more
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 14 2015 at 10:23
^Yes, in truth I know many younger people who use the term without any bad intent. It's simply become part of the rock music lexicon. Now, let's get back to this wonderful book!
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 14 2015 at 10:35
I see Birth Control is mentioned in the book, Steve. That is a bit of a surprise for me actually as I've never thought of them as being part of that scene - other than they're from Germany. Hard rock with progressive leanings sure, but there's a distinct deficit of the kosmische and unfathomable that I have come to adore and associate with Krautrock. No improvs and crazy sh*t that slings you out in the furthest part of the perimeter. Jane, Lucifer's Friend, King Ping Meh, Hölderlin and the likes often get mentioned in the same breath as ADII, Can and NEU!, but to my ears neither of these bands came close to what I'd call Krautrock. I guess what I'm trying to ask is this: is this a book on the German music scene during the 70s or does it deal with the Krautrock scene proper?
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 14 2015 at 11:10
Guy Guden wrote:
...
Like Werner Herzog said, "We are a nation without Fathers. Only Grandfathers."
... |
And Edgar Froese said something similar on that BBC special.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 15 2015 at 12:41
Guldbamsen wrote:
I see Birth Control is mentioned in the book, Steve. That is a bit of a surprise for me actually as I've never thought of them as being part of that scene - other than they're from Germany. Hard rock with progressive leanings sure, but there's a distinct deficit of the kosmische and unfathomable that I have come to adore and associate with Krautrock. No improvs and crazy sh*t that slings you out in the furthest part of the perimeter. Jane, Lucifer's Friend, King Ping Meh, Hölderlin and the likes often get mentioned in the same breath as ADII, Can and NEU!, but to my ears neither of these bands came close to what I'd call Krautrock. I guess what I'm trying to ask is this: is this a book on the German music scene during the 70s or does it deal with the Krautrock scene proper? |
Sorry, I couldn't get back to you sooner, David. The book is indeed about the development of 70's era krautrock and dotes on the bands that have had the greatest impact on the German music scene at that time. The book title is defiantly a misnomer and it was an oversight on my part not to clarify this as I had every intention of bringing that up in a later post. Unfortunately, I had gotten sidetracked with another issue ;). My apologies.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: February 16 2015 at 03:49
No worries Steve. I tend to forget where I post, so I probably have a fair few posts scattered around PA that I haven't responded to Thanks for the heads up though. Seems like the 'Krautrock' moniker often stands for German bands instead of a distinct style, which core is comprised of freeform, motorik grooves, electronic experiments and a touch of the avantguarde.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: February 16 2015 at 06:43
About the book: how does it compare to Julian Cope's Krautrocksampler (that I don't recommend), to Nikos Kotsopoulos' Krautrock: Cosmic Rock and Its Legacy or other books (I would quote Eric Deshayes' Au-dela du Rock, but I'm not sure non-French speaking people are aware of this book)?
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: February 16 2015 at 09:32
^As I've read neither, I will pass this question on to my grandson who is the family expert (fanatic?) on Krautrock and will got back to you. He's the one who lent me the posted book in the first place. In truth, I attempted to read Cope's book once but quickly lost interest.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 16 2015 at 10:15
Hi,
You can get a feel for Julian Cope's on his website and on the Inet ... and honestly, if I had to go by his comments, I probably would never have bothered. They are nothing but a stoned kid talking aobut what he thought was real stoney music.
In fact, a lot of this music has less drugs than any other scene anywhere! Some of it had it, but then it's like saying that SF did not have the pscyh's, NY didn't have the heroin, and London did not have ... whatever ... and so on. They all did ... but the question and end result is ... what came out of it? And in most cases, it was all killed due to the drug abuse, because the music was not "bigger" or "better" or "artistically motivated".
I have more respect for my generation, than just the fact that so many of them were nothing but dopers! And there were a lot of us that were not dopers ... we didn't need to be! And we still "got it"!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 16 2015 at 11:41
Never liked the term, then I've always felt that Kosmische Musik is an inadequate descriptor too, and Teutonic has prior connotations which makes it just as inappropriate in some ways. Fortunately we've all grown up since the 1970s and many (admittedly non-Prog) bands have emerged from Germany that have not been tagged with what is essentially a derogatory handle.
As alternative reading, there is always this book: http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/music-culture-and-%C2%AB-kosmische-%C2%BB-rock/5053167" rel="nofollow - Music Culture and "Kosmische" Rock by Philippe Blanche .
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Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: March 17 2015 at 09:36
The term Krautrock and what it refers to and how people feel about it and react to it, has evolved over the years, as people in this thread have pointed out. I think today, the term can be used with a straight face, but I can still understand the negative connotations the term has evoked in the past. And even the term "teutonic" doesn't have the same "bite" as it once did.
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Posted By: Guy Guden
Date Posted: March 18 2015 at 04:42
[QUOTE=Dean]Never liked the term, then I've always felt that Kosmische Musik is an inadequate descriptor too, and Teutonic has prior connotations which makes it just as inappropriate in some ways. Fortunately we've all grown up since the 1970s and many (admittedly non-Prog) bands have emerged from Germany that have not been tagged with what is essentially a derogatory handle. Thank you Dean, for reinforcing what I've viewed over the years: that German artists of the period HATE the term. Again, I mention that it was a marketing/importer tag. How many of us had those red & white labels (there were other colours) affixed to the plastic sleeves of Jane, Eloy, Atlantis, Frumpy, etc. informing the "unenlightened" we were purchasing KRAUT ROCK? On radio in the '70s, I let the music speak for itself, only saying "from Germany, the latest from Embryo" and so forth for every country.
I wonder if any western listener would call a German "Kraut" in person and expect to find they made a new friend. Also I can't recall any DJs in Munich introducing the latest from Van Halen as Yankrock. luv...
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 18 2015 at 07:03
Guy Guden wrote:
Dean wrote:
Never liked the term, then I've always felt that Kosmische Musik is an inadequate descriptor too, and Teutonic has prior connotations which makes it just as inappropriate in some ways. Fortunately we've all grown up since the 1970s and many (admittedly non-Prog) bands have emerged from Germany that have not been tagged with what is essentially a derogatory handle. |
Thank you Dean, for reinforcing what I've viewed over the years: that German artists of the period HATE the term. Again, I mention that it was a marketing/importer tag. How many of us had those red & white labels (there were other colours) affixed to the plastic sleeves of Jane, Eloy, Atlantis, Frumpy, etc. informing the "unenlightened" we were purchasing KRAUT ROCK? On radio in the '70s, I let the music speak for itself, only saying "from Germany, the latest from Embryo" and so forth for every country.
I wonder if any western listener would call a German "Kraut" in person and expect to find they made a new friend. Also I can't recall any DJs in Munich introducing the latest from Van Halen as Yankrock. luv...
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Stereotype name-calling amuses me more than it offends as it often says more about the name-caller than it does the culture, race or nationality being slurred. I take the same view when people call me names or launch themselves into an ad hominem diatribe against me - any upset or anger I show is more a reflection of my disappointment than anything else. [We Brits rarely take offence at any pejoratives used against them: Limey, Tommy, Pomme, Les rosbifs, Les goddams and Les fu*koffs is usually met with amusement and perhaps a little self-pride; not even "La perfide Albion" (perfidious Albion) will have us running back home in floods of tears.] One issue I have with re-appropriation of derogatory terms, (and that goes for Nerds, Trehuggers and Gingers too), is when they get all bent out of shape when others use those terms with the same familiarity as they do - if the once-derogatory term has been re-appropriated then it has to be acceptable for all, or not used at all.
"Kraut" is a French term that was adopted first by the American soldiers of WWI (the Brits preferred Fritz or Jerry in response to the German soldiers calling them Tommy). That, along with "bosche", was a ethnic slur by the French to their neighbours in Southern Germany relating to cabbages and sauerkraut. There is no doubt that it is a pejorative term, how offensive it is only a German can answer, but it was originally used with offensive intent.
It is possible that the term "krautrock" is not wholly connected with the pejorative "kraut" but derived in part from Amon Düül's 1969 album Psychedelic Underground and specifically "Mama Düül und ihre Sauerkrautband spielt auf" ... a title that appears to be a play on "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band". I also struggle to credit the British music press with the wit to come up with the name themselves, I think a better culprit is John Ravenscroft "Peel" for two reasons: one, he latched onto the emergent German underground music scene before the music press and was certainly aware of Amon Düül and two, he was an ex-Public School boy and that kind of childish name-calling is indicative of the type and level of humour in the public school system.
The biggest problem I have with "krautrock" as a genre name is not its pejorative derogatory origins, but its lack of suitability as a name. It's an inappropriate catch-all that doesn't catch-all, the music that we regard as "krautrock" is not a distinct style of music, nor does it have meaningful geographic associations. Each region had its own underground music scene, with a unique sound, style and approach. The bands from Berlin, Köln, München, Düsseldorf were unrelated and essentially disconnected from each other. It wasn't all Kosmische Musik or all Motorik, not every band played synthesisers, not every band was influenced by musique concrete and Karlhienz Stockhausen. It is little wonder that occasionally Triumvirat, Nectar and Eloy get lazily lumped under this lazy umbrella banner.
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Posted By: Guy Guden
Date Posted: March 19 2015 at 04:12
I agree with your overview completely Dean. I wasn't aware that it was possibly Mr. Peel who first used the term. Are there recordings from the '70s where he introduced bands as such? Again, from my perspective as an import record buyer, the term first appeared on sleeve labels from the marketers. The Amon Duul song is a possible good source, as you mention, probably more for Mr. Peel than the importers, who probably never read the titles. AD2 were aware of the geographical stereotype, as later songs like "Mr. Kraut's Jinx" shows. The band always had a strong perspective on history and Germany's Western migrations. I agree with the failure of the term. I have always hated labels. When I was explaining to the powers in control of commercial radio in 1973 what I wanted to do with SPACE PIRATE RADIO, they were lost. I could only describe it to them as an "import music" show featuring experimental, electronic and unusual music from foreign countries. Progressive and Art Rock were terms that tended to surface after I had already gotten the show on the air. This had only been an extension of my previous radio experience in 1968 when I did a show called "British Underground," where I played the import albums that had 14 cuts as opposed to the American releases which had 10. You are correct about the different schools of music coming out of Germany by geographical location. I did my best on air to point out that what was coming out of Munchen, was different than Berlin, Dusseldorf or Koln. Playing something like Floh de Cologne, primarily spoken,... against Kraftwerk, Kluster or Kraan, helped highlight how Amon Duul from the South, was different than Tangerine Dream from the North and these cats from the West. Again, my thanks for your perspective. I dislike labels and pigeon holing. I cringed when Manuel Gottsching's "New Age of Earth" down the line, inspired some account executive to come up with New Age Music. The whole intention of my tenure on SPACE PIRATE RADIO was to let the music speak for itself. And to let the listener interpret the experience for themselves. Not for me, or some market driven entrepreneur, to downsize it into a saleable commodity. Cheers and Good Health!
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 19 2015 at 04:19
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 20 2015 at 10:29
We have all stated that the term is derogatory or at least unpleasant, but what name German 'star' has taken issue with it is the real question to this non ending discussion. Signed, trying to retire.
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Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: March 20 2015 at 11:13
Good. Now that we have determined that the term "kraut" was a derogatory word against Germans and, from a musical point of view, it was rather misguided, can someone talk about the book?
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 20 2015 at 15:18
^Yes. No one interviewed in the book, including members of TD, Kraftwerk to Neu! and Faust, had an issue with the term Krautrock.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 20 2015 at 20:42
SteveG wrote:
^Yes. No one interviewed in the book, including members of TD, Kraftwerk to Neu! and Faust, had an issue with the term Krautrock.
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Brief mention of the term occurs in the BBC documentary that Pedro alluded to (Krautrock: The Rebirth of Germany) where three or four musicians give their views which can be sumarised as: like, dislike and "I don't make krautrock music"
I think there is another documentary where Edgar Froese objects to the term, but I may have imagined that as I cannot find a clip.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 21 2015 at 10:28
^Yes, I'm sure the book was edited so that the interviewees did not trash the book's title. However, I still feel there is a lack of strong protest against the term. I would like to see it, if it exists, as it might put the term Krautrock finally to rest.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 22 2015 at 12:10
SteveG wrote:
^Yes, I'm sure the book was edited so that the interviewees did not trash the book's title. However, I still feel there is a lack of strong protest against the term. I would like to see it, if it exists, as it might put the term Krautrock finally to rest. |
I'll reword the stuff on my website ... and I agree. doing my best to not use the term again!
But we have an issue here ... and it is the same as the "progressive" thing and definition ... we don't have another way to refer to it, although "kosmiche" would not exactly be correct in at least half the works, and in the others, someone will quickly point out that drugs have nothing to do with "cosmic" or anything else!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 22 2015 at 17:26
moshkito wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^Yes, I'm sure the book was edited so that the interviewees did not trash the book's title. However, I still feel there is a lack of strong protest against the term. I would like to see it, if it exists, as it might put the term Krautrock finally to rest. |
I'll reword the stuff on my website ... and I agree. doing my best to not use the term again!
But we have an issue here ... and it is the same as the "progressive" thing and definition ... we don't have another way to refer to it, although "kosmiche" would not exactly be correct in at least half the works, and in the others, someone will quickly point out that drugs have nothing to do with "cosmic" or anything else! |
It's nothing like the "progressive" thing and definition - that appears to be only a problem to you. We have lots of ways of referring to "Progressive Rock" and we do that by breaking it down into smaller subgenres. If something does not fit into those subgenres then it is the wrong kind of progressive and we discard it. This does not mean that the discarded artist is unworthy or substandard it just means it's not the kind of progressive we're looking for.
Back in the day there were lots of different bands that could be called "underground" and there were lots of different kinds of bands that were "freaky" and lots of different bands that were "arty" (to be forever confused with "art rock") and lots of different bands were being all "avant garde", and all of them were "progressive". As we all know, back then some of those bands got tagged as "Progressive Rock", and that predominately referred to a kind of "progressive" music that was coming out of Europe in the early part of the 1970s, namely Great Britain, The Netherlands, Italy, France, Germany and the Scandinavian countries - this is not to say that Progressive Rock wasn't being created in other countries at that time, of course it was, and much of it inspired by music coming out of those previously mentioned countries.
So - some of those "underground" "freaky" "arty" and "avant garde" bands were Progressive Rock and some were not, yet all of them were being all nice and "progressive" and "forward thinking" and "experimental" and perhaps even a little "avant gardy". A bit of a bugger that. How do you tell one from the other? What a to do. Except that it isn't an issue because we have all those pesky little subgenres. Now we can make accurately vague definitions for the subgenres and not have to worry our pretty little heads about inventing some all encompassing vaguely inaccurate definition for "Progressive Rock".
The daft thing (and this is the really insanely stupidly unbelievably idiotically daft thing), is this actually works. And it has been working for far longer than the 11 year existence of this site. It works so effectively that most people coming to this website for the first time instantly get it, like it actually makes sense. Of course there are a few recalcitrant types who will complain bitterly that the system does not work because their pet "underground" "freaky" "arty" "avant garde" band is not listed here ... (oh let's say "Grateful Dead" or "Stratovarious" just for snit and giggles) ... and it is quite amusing to see the contorted shapes they can throw when they get their panties in a wad over it ... but those are the exceptions that prove the rule exists and the rule is working just fine.
The problem with delineating bands by geographical boundaries is music has no truck with such arbitrary lines on a map. We don't classify bands out of The Netherlands as Dutch Prog or British bands as Anglo Prog. Yes I know we do classify *some*, (but not all), Italian bands as RPI, and some ill-informed people would point to Canterbury Scene as a geographical classification [clue: it's not]; there has also been a small push to have "Rock Andalúz" recognised as a subgenre, but that creates more problems than it solves.
Now, before we get too carried away (and I assure you this post is going to get very carried away), I think avoiding the term "Krautrock" is not the answer - the phrase "political correctness gone mad" is often applied incorrectly, but this would not be one of those times. As Steve says [paraphrasing], the artists themselves have not issued a public statement denouncing the term. The term has existed for forty years and is one of the oldest named subgenres listed on this site.
So one solution is to take the subgenre (and its definition) and simply chuck it out the window. Whoosh! and problem is solved. We'll keep the artists of course, we're just throwing out the dirty bathwater - only an idiot would neglect to remove the baby first.
This is not quite the act of unadulterated vandalism it first seems. We have already established in this thread and by reading books, watching TV documentaries, and through a fu*k-load of received wisdom that:
i) this term was a lazy categorising by music press journalists and album importers and distributors ii) there isn't a cohesive style of music played by all band that fall under the banner
ii.a) not all bands played Kosmische Musik
ii.b) not all bands were avant garde
ii.c) not all bands were electronic ii.d) they didn't all belong to the same scene or movement ii.e) they had nothing in common ii.f) they didn't have common influences or goals
ii.g) they weren't all druggies.
iii) not all those bands come from Germany (only 69.14% are of German origin) iv) not all German bands are called "Krautrock"
Some of those bands can be recategorised under existing subgenres that are more meaningfully descriptive of the kind of "Progressive Rock" they play, just as Zeuhl could be recategorised under RIO/Avant and Indo/Raga could be recategorised under Prog Folk.
Whatever remains after that then has to be put somewhere, and that could be a new subgenre that is a more suitable home for those hard-to-place artists. That could be Kosmische Musik, though it raises the question of how different is that from Psychedelic Prog/Space Rock? Would it be so wrong to put Amon Düül II into Psych/Space alongside Floyd, Hawkwind and [Mother] Gong? (Once we start moving bands out of Krautrock and into Pscyh/Space then Gong being left under Canterbury just because Daevid Allen was in Soft Machine doesn't seem to be that sensible or accurate.)
There is of course precedent for actually doing this: seven years ago we took a look at the mess that was Art Rock and divided it into three more meaningful subgenres (technically it's four, with the fourth being all art rock that is not Progressive Rock... or Art Rock for short); and five years ago we took a look at the mess that was Progressive Metal and divided it into three more meaningful subgenres. The names we give these genres, subgenres and sub-subgenres is essentially irrelevant, they are just flags of convenience that we use so we all know what we're talking about. It matters not one iota that these invented subgenre names are not recognised outside the rarefied atmosphere of the Progressive Archives, that too is irrelevant, their vernacular meaning in the PA is all that matters. Genre names are nothing more than a short-hand notation that allows us to communicate with each other - the music of King Crimson does not change when we call it by a different name, the music of Procol Harum and The Moody Blues didn't magically become more progressive when they were moved out of Proto-Prog.
Now, assuming that you've read this far and understood at least the gist of what I have written, let's not go all nuclear on my arse. I am not for one minute suggesting that we actually do this. I'm not even suggesting this is a good idea. I'm just pointing out a possible alternative. The problem with any solution, even a renaming, is forty-five years of history, and that is something that we cannot just ignore because the name that someone gave an unrelated bunch of bands is uncomfortable to some or is an inadequate descriptor for some others.
------------- What?
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 22 2015 at 17:37
^I'm sorry I played devil's advocate on this Dean, but I really don't think that Krautrock is terribly offensive to a lot of people. But even if one person feels any discomfort by it, then terminating the term should not be dismissed out of hand. We've all high jacked this thread long enough. Let's leave it and Pedro in peace.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 29 2015 at 11:36
Hi,
Being a foreigner in two countries (Portuguese kid in Brazil and then foreign kid in America!), I can relate to the term, only because in high school, junior college and university, the terms were applied liberally, and it wasn't because I had a 20ft union jack on my head or ass!
Even Guy made fun of it, but he made fun of all of us, and it was OK for me, but inside, sometimes it didn't help one feel a whole lot better, until one of his characters went out to discover new lands and claim the land for _______ and raise the flag __________ and then let's break open the Mateus ... which made it a bit more fun for me.
Trust me, being called a spic in LA or Santa Barbara (last time in 2010 and I had a Univision for the soccer games!) at Safeway on Fairview Blvd.
One hopes that these things get better, but it seems they don't!
I would rather call it the German Music and its various scenes, and will re-touch all my writing on it on the website.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: March 29 2015 at 11:54
Some really interesting thoughts on the term Krautrock here. I will admit to be very surprised that Krautrock was actually a term that was used to describe German underground music when I first got into Prog. To me it was an insulting term at the time towards Germans so it took me quite a long time to get used to writing this title and I didn't see anyone protesting the term. Like Mosh I could go back and change it to Kosmische or something else which would take a lot of work but i'm thinking about it, not saying i'll do it but...
------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: March 29 2015 at 13:03
presdoug wrote:
The term Krautrock and what it refers to and how people feel about it and react to it, has evolved over the years, as people in this thread have pointed out. I think today, the term can be used with a straight face, but I can still understand the negative connotations the term has evoked in the past. And even the term "teutonic" doesn't have the same "bite" as it once did. | I think I am wrong. Krautrock is still a derogatory term, and a lazy one, and we can do much better than that, in referencing the complex German music scene. And I should know better, really, as my best friend of many years is German, and we have had many talks about what it means to be German.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 29 2015 at 13:41
No offence meant lads but I'm going to use the term as long as I've got ears. I have still to meet a single person who's seen it as a derogatory name. Sure, we've got a few peeps on here who feel differently, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, they all seem to be of an older generation, which probably has a few connotations going back to ze war. The German fans I've met in real life, also the old ones, have never once uttered anything substantially negative about 'Krautrock'. I do respect the previous posters for their decisions though '....a rose by any other name would smell as sweet'
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 16:42
It's the older generation for sure David which includes me of course. Interesting that the German band Electric Orange have an album called Krautrock From Hell.
------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: March 31 2015 at 16:48
Yeah I thought of that too. As I mentioned earlier, most bands seem to think of the moniker Krautrock as something positive: 'Wow did we really sound that far out!! YES!!!! YES!!! Come on dude, we did it!' *small backstage bit from somewhere in Berlin*
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: April 01 2015 at 15:17
I just looked in the mirror. This just might be a generational thing after all!
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 03 2015 at 09:28
Hi,
Three times I have gone to get this ... and three times I walked away without it!
I do not like the title at all!
And I do not want to read a book that comes off like Peter Michael Hamel's book From Music to the Self ... which got boring with the commentary about every band in the world being a total stink! Heck, most of the world was built out of stink, and then some ... after wars and what not!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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