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maani View Drop Down
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Points: 2632 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2006 at 18:17
Mark:
 
No, I don't "have it in" for the military.  I have simply learned from 40 years of socio-political experience - and especially during this Administration - that if the government or military tells me something, there is a better than 50/50 chance that the exact opposite is true.
 
Peace.
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Points: 904 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2006 at 02:49
Governments should be afraid of their people, not the other way around.
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Points: 8548 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2006 at 05:20
It looks like a huge vibrator............I have to get glasses
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Peter View Drop Down
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2006 at 01:40
Originally posted by <FONT color=#ff0000>marktheshark</FONT> marktheshark wrote:

maani quote:

"5,000,000-30,000,000 is the estimated number of slaves that died in transit or shortly thereafter. This number can be found in dozens of articles and books."

Come on maani, do the math. Just how many trans-Atlantic slave ship crossings occured in those years? A thousand? Or how about 10 thousand? Which is highly unlikely. And what was the capacity of the "cargo" holds in the ships? 2 or 3 hundred slaves maybe? Sorry, it just doesn't fly. The books or articles you've been reading sound pretty slanted to me and probably sanctioned by Jackson, Sharpton, Rangle, Shabazz and who else.
    
 
I have been reading parts of this thread with some interest, and while I don't really wish to wade into the wider debate, it just so happens that I've been reading a fascinating book on the slave trade: The Diligent: A Voyage Through the Worlds of the Slave Trade (C. 2002 by Robert Harms).
 
In the prelude (the book recounts a single voyage via an officer's journal, and is quite gripping), Harms, an acclaimed Yale professor of History, writes about the African slave trade in general:
 
"The voyage of the Diligent was only one of the appoximately forty thousand slaving voyages that forcibly carried off more than 11 million captives from the shores of Africa over a period of four centuries."
 
Harms further informs us that the taking of slaves from Africa by Europeans started with the Portuguese in the 1400s (on a much smaller scale than it would reach in its 1700s peak), but that over 85% of all slaves taken were transported to the new world after 1700.
 
Spain, Holland, Portugal/Brazil, France and England were major players. America (est. 1776) was a latecomer -- and a late quitter -- to the heinous slavery "game."
 
The Diligent (the three masted ship that features in the book) was average in size for the trade, and carried 256 slaves from West Africa, and across the Atlantic to the island of Martinique in the Caribbean.
 
In this horrid, apparently typical voyage, nine of the 256 slaves died. Nine out of 256 is a mortality rate for the voyage of less than 4 percent. If we apply this number (4%) to the total number of slaves transported during the entire Atlantic slave trade (11,000,000), we get a total death toll (during transportation) of 440,000.
 
 
If we push the average mortality rate up to 10% (I think that would be really pushing it, due to the economics involved), we are still left with "only" one million, one hundred thousand deaths (during transport) for the entire 400 year slave trade.
 
 
 
 
 
Naturally, I am not defending the slave trade, or trying to diminish its horror, or America's part in it. Taking 11 million people from their homes forever, selling them like mere trade goods and forcing them into lives of harsh servitude was a 'holocaust' by any measure. Whether 440,000 or 1,100,000  died as a direct result ot the process is immaterial to the huge evil that was perpetrated.
 
How did "civillized" Europeans (and later Americans) allow themselves to carry out this great crime against humanity, over a span of four hundred years? Through some rather convenient rationalization/self-deception, and the comfort of good ol' religion: the slave lost the liberty of his (temporal) life and body, but, because he would be (forcibly) converted to Christianity, he gained the eternal life and freedom of his soul, it was argued.
 
Furthermore, it was commonly (but erroneously) believed that the interior of Africa was woefully over-populated -- the Africans would inevitably starve anyway if not enslaved....
 
(There was also much African complicity & involvement in the slave trade, of course -- gold, goods and guns flowed in, and slaves flowed out -- but that is another topic -- read the book!)
 
 
 
So, not to be pedantic or preachy, folks, but I just saw a timely opportunity to clear up some of your contentious numbers on this subject.
 
 
I whole-heartedly recommend Harms' eminently readable, fascinating book to any of you who might be interested.Stern Smile
 
 


Edited by Peter Rideout - June 14 2006 at 02:31
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Points: 1695 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2006 at 01:57
Originally posted by Peter Rideout Peter Rideout wrote:

Originally posted by <font color=#ff0000>marktheshark</font> marktheshark wrote:

maani quote: "5,000,000-30,000,000 is the estimated number of slaves that died in transit or shortly thereafter. This number can be found in dozens of articles and books." Come on maani, do the math. Just how many trans-Atlantic slave ship crossings occured in those years? A thousand? Or how about 10 thousand? Which is highly unlikely. And what was the capacity of the "cargo" holds in the ships? 2 or 3 hundred slaves maybe? Sorry, it just doesn't fly. The books or articles you've been reading sound pretty slanted to me and probably sanctioned by Jackson, Sharpton, Rangle, Shabazz and who else.     

 

I have been reading parts of this thread with some interest, and while I don't really wish to wade into the wider debate, it just so happens that I've been reading a fascinating book on the slave trade: The Diligent: A Voyage Through the Worlds of the Slave Trade (C. 2002 by Robert Harms).

 

In the prelude (the book recounts a single voyage via an officer's journal, and is quite gripping), Harms, an acclaimed Yale professor of History, writes about the African slave trade in general:

 

<FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" color=#006600>"The voyage of the Diligent was only one of the appoximately forty thousand slaving voyages that forcibly carried off more than 11 million captives from the shores of Africa over a period of four centuries."

 

Harms further informs us that the taking of slaves from Africa by Europeans started with the Portuguese in the 1400s (on a much smaller scale than it would reach in its 1700s peak), but that over 85% of all slaves taken were transported to the new world after 1700.

 

Spain, Holland, Portugal/Brazil, France and England were major players. America (est. 1776) was a latecomer -- and a late quitter -- to the heinous slavery "game."

 

The Diligent (the three masted ship that features in the book) was average in size for the trade, and carried 256 slaves from West Africa, and across the Atlantic to the island of Martinique in the Caribbean.

 

In this horrid, apparently typical voyage, nine of the 256 slaves died. Nine out of 256 is a mortality rate for the voyage of less than 4 percent. If we apply this number (4%) to the total number of slaves transported during the entire Atlantic slave trade (11,000,000), we get a total death toll (during transportation) of 440,000.

 

 

If we push the average mortality rate up to 10% (I think that would be really pushing it, due to the economics involved), we are still left with "only" one million, one hundred thousand deaths (during transport) for the entire 400 year slave trade.

 

 

 

 

 

Naturally, I am not defending the slave trade, or trying to diminish its horror, or America's part in it. Taking 11 million people from their homes forever, selling them like mere trade goods and forcing them into lives of harsh servitude was a 'holocaust' by any measure. Whether 440,000 or 1,100,000  died as a direct rusult ot the process is immaterial to the huge evil that was perpetrated.

 

How did "civillized" Europeans (and later Americans) allow themselves to carry out this great crime against humanity, over a span of four hundred years? Through some rather convenient rationalization/self-deception, and the comfort of good ol' religion: the slave lost the liberty of his (temporal) life and body, but, because he would be (forcibly) converted to Christianity, he gained the eternal life and freedom of his soul, it was argued.

 

Furthermore, it was commonly (but erroneously) believed that the interior of Africa was woefully over-populated -- the Africans would inevitably starve anyway if not enslaved....

 

(There was also much African complicity & involvement in the slave trade, of course -- gold, goods and guns flowed in, and slaves flowed out -- but that is another topic -- read the book!)

 

 

 

So, not to be pedantic or preachy, folks, but I just saw a timely opportunity to clear up some of your contentious numbers on this subject.

 

 

I whole-heartedly recommend Harms' eminently readable, fascinating book to any of you who might be interested.[IMG>height=17 alt="Stern Smile" src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley22.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>

 

 

Good post Peter and that does sound like an interesting book to read.

As stated before, I don't deny the crimes that were committed during this period and I certainly don't defend them. It's just that there's has been a constant rewriting and distorting of history going on for the past 30 years or so in order to so called "get even" with America. And it's been really getting out of hand.

Thanks for the info.
    
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Rust View Drop Down
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Points: 1148 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2006 at 03:36
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Sorry about your nephew, Jody!

But I agree that people should try to obtain all information available on the subject and then make up their minds and decide what THEY believe.

Here's an interesting video - highly recommended!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848

 
I don't believe I have ever had so many negative feelings inside of me after watching a video like that. I don't know whether to cry or throw my middle finger to this countries leaders, but what good would any of that do. Believe me when I say that I am showing anyone I know this video.
 
 
 
Ying Yang
We got to pump the stuff to make us tough
from the heart
Its astart
What we need is awareness we cant get careless
Mental self defensive fitness
Make everybody see in order to fight the powers that be
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21594 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2006 at 04:14
Originally posted by Rust Rust wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Sorry about your nephew, Jody!

But I agree that people should try to obtain all information available on the subject and then make up their minds and decide what THEY believe.

Here's an interesting video - highly recommended!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848

 
I don't believe I have ever had so many negative feelings inside of me after watching a video like that. I don't know whether to cry or throw my middle finger to this countries leaders, but what good would any of that do. Believe me when I say that I am showing anyone I know this video.
 
 
 
Ying Yang


Make sure you also read the word document that was posted as a response a few thread pages ago ... it debunks many of the theories of that video.
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Rust View Drop Down
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Points: 1148 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2006 at 05:54
Don't worry, I am looking at this from both sides.
We got to pump the stuff to make us tough
from the heart
Its astart
What we need is awareness we cant get careless
Mental self defensive fitness
Make everybody see in order to fight the powers that be
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21594 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2006 at 06:30
^ everone should do that - watch the video and then read the debunking document. It's quite lengthy and it will take several hours, but it's worth it!
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cobb View Drop Down
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Points: 1149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 04:18

Couldn't help myself after reading this one... I had to bring it back.

    http://www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/16883/BYU_Physics_Prof_Finds_Thermate_in_WTC_Physical_Samples

Further down the page are the original docs from Prof Jones.


Edited by cobb - June 21 2006 at 04:19
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Points: 5113 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 08:31
Wow that's interesting.
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Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 08:44
It's good job the 'Portland Independant Media Center' would never be taken seriously by anyone who follows mainstream media. Otherwise we could see a revolution in the US. If it's ever proven that the Bush admin were at least accessary to mass murder, US citizens would tare the f***ing Whitehouse down with their bare hands.

I wonder how long it will be before this young professor is hung out to dry; found to have smoked pot 10 years ago, found to have had a relationship with a student, found to be gay, found to have links with radical Muslims in the US.... eventually found dead after an 'accident' on a quite country road..

Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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maani View Drop Down
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Points: 2632 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 12:30
Blacksword:
 
True, "they" may attempt to smear Dr. Jones.  But right now he has one of the best qualifications possible vis-a-vis the Bushies: he's an evangelical Christian!!  (As is, by the way, David Ray Griffin, one of the 9/11 Truth movement's leaders).
 
Peace.
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