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VDGG: ALT !??

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Jared View Drop Down
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    Posted: June 07 2023 at 01:17
My actually starting a thread is as rare as hen's teeth on PA, so you can imagine I'm inquisitive as to your thoughts.  I admit I've been very slow to the party when it comes to VDGG's last few albums (I've listened to more classical than prog over the past decade), so I'm just getting around to AGIN, DND & ALT now, having invested in the really splendid 'Interference Patterns' box set recently.

I must admit, after a couple of spins, this album release bamboozles me. Like many of the reviewers, I'd put it in the same category as the 2nd disk on Present, as a diverse, dislocated collection of improvisations that I'm finding hard to get my head round or really enjoy. That said, the PA reviews are very varied for this album; Hugues thinks it great!

So, my questions are, do you like it? Did you initially dislike it, but it has grown on you over time? Are there specific times or moods for you when it gets a spin, or has it never seen the light of day again? Are there specific tracks which work for you more than others?

and finally, do you think it was wise to release this album as a stand-alone, or should it have been Disk 2 of AGIN?

I'm looking forward to your thoughts...  Smile
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I prophesy disaster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2023 at 03:09
Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

I'd put it in the same category as the 2nd disk on Present
 
Perhaps. But unlike the second disc of Present, which I quite like, ALT doesn't have David Jackson, and on an album like this, he is sorely missed.
 
Whereas I'd place "Manuelle" from the second disc of Present among my favorite VdGG tracks, there is nothing on ALT that makes me want to listen to the album.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jared Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2023 at 03:16
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

 
Perhaps. But unlike the second disc of Present, which I quite like, ALT doesn't have David Jackson, and on an album like this, he is sorely missed.


Personally, I couldn't agree more, he was so integral to their sound, they seemed to be missing an entire dimension after Present.
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I prophesy disaster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2023 at 03:29
Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Perhaps. But unlike the second disc of Present, which I quite like, ALT doesn't have David Jackson, and on an album like this, he is sorely missed.
Personally, I couldn't agree more, he was so integral to their sound, they seemed to be missing an entire dimension after Present.
 
Although it is disappointing that David Jackson is no longer with the band, I think "A Grounding in Numbers" does succeed without him. It's not a masterpiece, but I do prefer it to "Still Life" and maybe, just maybe even "Godbluff". But ALT doesn't even have Peter Hammill singing, so it's missing TWO important elements of the classic VdGG sound.
 

No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2023 at 03:35
I like it (and I've written a four star review of it), but then I listen to a lot of atonal and arhythmic experimental and improvised music (I actually do some such stuff myself). Compared to good work in that categories it is a bit disjointed, but it is rather original and playful, and also, in my ears that are used to experimental music, there's quite some musicality in it. If I imagine a listener who doesn't know who did this but is open to this kind of stuff and maybe even somewhat knowledgable, this listener would probably guess that this is done by artists who don't do this kind of thing regularly. It certainly has some naivety to it and is rough around the edges. But I imagine this listener also to be able to find something to like quite easily.

The thing is that this will not appeal to listeners who expect what VDGG are otherwise good at. It's a matter of expectations. And also of course of whether you generally like this kind of thing.


Edited by Lewian - June 07 2023 at 03:36
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Jared View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jared Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2023 at 03:38
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

 Although it is disappointing that David Jackson is no longer with the band, I think "A Grounding in Numbers" does succeed without him. It's not a masterpiece, but I do prefer it to "Still Life" and maybe, just maybe even "Godbluff". But ALT doesn't even have Peter Hammill singing, so it's missing TWO important elements of the classic VdGG sound.

Oh for me, both Still Life and Godbluff are in a completely different league to anything they have done since reforming. I wished that Present was a stronger offering than it was, while they had Jackson, but Trisector seems the strongest of the rest (although it's marginal). Personally, while I have always thought that QZ/PD held up surprisingly well after DJ's initial departure, I don't really feel that about their later albums, which seem a little lacking for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jared Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2023 at 03:43
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

The thing is that this will not appeal to listeners who expect what VDGG are otherwise good at. It's a matter of expectations. And also of course of whether you generally like this kind of thing.

That's an interesting perspective Lewian, thanks. I don't tend to do many instrumental albums beyond mainstream stuff like Oldfield or TD, and when it's without a coherent form or structure, I'm really struggling. As I said in another thread this morning, I really find stuff like Soft Machine difficult for instance and so struggle to 'find a way in' to VDGG's more experimental disks..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2023 at 04:09
Hi,

Honestly, I do not exactly think one piece or another is better, though I could say this one or that one was more enjoyable. 

For me, Peter Hammill, or VDGG is "the same" ... I look at them as a composer, and through his/her life they have a lot of work, and some seems to be better liked than other work ... but in the end for me, the question is ... would I still love and enjoy PH and VDGG?

THE ANSWER IS A RESOUNDING YES! 

There is no more individual voice in rock music than this group of folks, maybe I would select Amon Duul 2, but in the end, another album, with something new, old or new or different ... it's just more for me ... to enjoy ... and appreciate during my life!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog-jester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2023 at 10:18
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

The thing is that this will not appeal to listeners who expect what VDGG are otherwise good at. It's a matter of expectations
this

I love VDGG dearly, but ALT was just unnecessary in my book
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2023 at 13:09
Meh. It's alt too disposable for me.

To compare two tracks: I actually like the longest track Dronus and I would say that I find Colossus a colossal waste of time, but it's not that colossal. It is a very thin album to me and something I could have done without hearing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jared Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2023 at 13:30
Thanks everyone... keep your thoughts coming; it's good to know.

There are albums which lay outside your comfort zone, however with a bit of perseverance start to yield up their secrets. Then, there are albums which never will. Whilst I don't close the door, I suspect for me, Alt lies in the latter category..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miamiscot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2023 at 07:18
It's not good. Easily their worst.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2023 at 10:02
I just listened to about 40 percent of it on youtube. What I heard was interesting. I can understand people not liking it but I think it's at least good for what it is (improvs). I think it's at least good for one thing. Do you have a friend who overstays their welcome at your place? Put this on and see how fast they leave.

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - June 22 2023 at 10:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeb1981 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2023 at 16:29
I dont get all the bad rep for this album, to me it sounds way more composed at times and way more fully developed than disc 2 of present.......
And as the main poster said, it is a grower !!!
For those negative to this, i`ll tell you, play it some more, get to know it a bit more !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2023 at 01:49
Originally posted by zeb1981 zeb1981 wrote:

I dont get all the bad rep for this album, to me it sounds way more composed at times and way more fully developed than disc 2 of present.......
And as the main poster said, it is a grower !!!
For those negative to this, i`ll tell you, play it some more, get to know it a bit more !


Only a short year after the rather average GIN album, the trio comes back with an uncharacteristic album, made for recent "odds and ends", improvs, soundchecks and other tidbits of the ilk. Of course, like everyone else, you're tempted to think of 05's Present's second "tedious" disc, and in some ways, you'd be absolutely right to think of it. But Alt is also rather more interesting a release; not least, because it is not overshadowed by a studio album with proper songs, like Present was. So the present (no big "P") album is made up of instrumental pieces that somehow found their ways into tapes or memory banks in the last six years ? none feature Jaxon's sax. And just like the improvised Present pieces from 05 were credited to all four members, all Alt tracks are credited to Evans, Banton & Hammill. The actual piecing/correcting and mixing of the material took place in a very inadapted place, modified by the band, as can be seen in the booklet's pictures.

Opening with birds chirping away, the aptly-titled Early Bird is a slow dronal ambient, but occasionally tense pieces, (as will the closing 10-mins+ Dronus), and in some ways, you could think of some post-rock bands' soundscapes. Some other pieces are more Graafesque sonic-wise (Midnite, Batty Loop, Tuesday Or Extractus), but the conspicuous absence of vocals can somehow dismay the listener, but since we're never (or almost) in an actual "constructed song" context (probably even less so than on Present's disc 2), one should easily adapt and accept Alt for what it is: an anecdotic but instructive Graaf "archival" (not sure this is the right word for it) release. To call Alt an experimental album might just be overstating things (it's not revolutionary or groundbreaking) and yet it teaches us a few things about the band, and lets a different facet of the trio surface. More than in any other Graaf album, Alt lets you see (or hear, in this case) just how good Evans and Banton are on their respective tools. You'd tend to think that Jaxon's absence would be insurmountable on instrumentals like these, but it's just not the case: it forces Peter and Hugh to surpass themselves and be even more inventive. And there is no doubt that Hammill keeps getting better on keys and strings. Actually, Repeat After Me is a fairly good base to solid song, as it seems that it's only missing Peter's deep vocals and solemn lyrics. At times, the trio can get very Crimsonesque in their improvisations, like Elsewhere, Here's One, Colossus (where Banton deals with heavy-duty synth and loops), D'Accord and Mackerel.

One more good point about Alt, is that it made me revisit Present's second disc with the improvisations, and I re-evaluated it (positively) in my book. Soooo, while not a normal studio album, Alt holds at least as much interest as some of the band's less inspired albums like World Record or the recent Grounding, but most likely for the average Graafhead, it will not get as much airplay in the long run, though I will probably be in the minority and come back to it occasionally.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HIPPIE DAVID 61 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2023 at 12:10
This album, should have been free download, or disc 2 of a proper album. Sounds like ramblings,  one or two could have been developed to greatness, but was not to be. Have not really gone out of my way to listen to this much, prefer to listen to their classic early stuff.
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