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King Crimson's little success?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2020 at 20:32
Well, I do think that, even though King Crimson did some different things along the way, the Schizoid Man sort of songs, and later on A Sailor's Tale and Larks Tongues in Aspic (both parts) remained the basis for a fair amount of their songs later on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2020 at 20:35
Originally posted by Fysix Fysix wrote:

I'm primarily a modern prog metal guy, but I recently started listening through the KC discography in sequence as part of a "musical discovery" on another forum. Being very familiar with the band's name, the cover of "In the Court...", and the main theme of 21st Century Schizoid Man, I realized that this must be an extremely limited view of a highly influential band that should be corrected.

I'm halfway through Starless… now, and so far I'm surprised. The more I hear, the more it changes from what I thought the band's style was. The longer, free-form / ambientish sections with low volume sound unusual to my ears accustomed to pre-structured / rigidly GuitarPro-composed, heavily compressed and fixed-to-click newer music. Most resonant to me was the second part of Larks'...

Regarding the original question, I agree with some earlier posts that from what I heard to now, the vocals are not the strong point, which is secondary to an instrumental-focused guy like me, but probably key for commercial success. Also, the shorter attention span of (more) mainstream listeners probably doesn't care much for the extended ambient sections.


If you are working your way at discovering King Crimson, don't forget to give their live albums a try. Playing live has been as important to their history as their studio albums, and they do like to change things around. And some of their songs are heavier, and with many added improvs. Schizoid Man for me is much greater in later live versions, with the sax replaced by some heavy guitar riffing, which to me fits those riffs better (particularly the Wetton era version is on fire).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2020 at 21:08
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Well, I do think that, even though King Crimson did some different things along the way, the Schizoid Man sort of songs, and later on A Sailor's Tale and Larks Tongues in Aspic (both parts) remained the basis for a fair amount of their songs later on.

But those songs themselves draw from widely different eras of the band, so therein the point.  Their 'signature' to the extent there is one is much wider than any of the big prog rock bands.  The main reason being that (a) the big prog rock bands usually had a stable line up for at least 4-5 albums at a stretch while no KC formation lasted beyond three at the most (and only the two best line ups lasted that long - Wetton-KC and Belew-KC) and (b) most of the big prog rock bands, with the exception of VDGG, either willingly pursued a commercial direction or were pushed into one by their labels, with only Floyd and Rush finding a middle ground where they could remain accessible without descending into silliness.  

Interestingly, the THRAK lineup only supplemented the Discipline formation rather than replacing it because Fripp was seemingly loath to let go of the stellar Belew and Levin (as also long time collaborator Bruford) and the newness came more from the long hiatus between Three of A Perfect Pair and THRAK.  Even so, THRAK-Power to Believe is one of their least impressive phases and certainly less impressive than Wetton-KC and 80s Belew-KC and did not in my estimation live up to Bruford's lofty boast that you can hear the future of music on a KC album.  Fripp, instead, was not immune to the general confusion faced by those rock musicians who refused to embrace more keyboard or electronic led trends found in both EDM (duh) and alt rock/Brit pop.  This suggests that Fripp's previous artistic success did rely on not letting a line up continue to the point where it had nothing new left to say.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fysix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 00:09
Will definitely do that! One part that I have been discussing would be listening to several versions on the "same" song back-to-back. I suppose with KC there should be some cases where recorded versions (e.g. of Schizoid) change dramatically over the decades and lineups…
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 00:50
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
Yeah, Fripp never learned that he had to stand up and play guitar onstage!!  LOL

That is what Lake told him, anyway.  
...

Hi,

Please stop this ... his ability is tied to all the electronics he uses and pedals ... and what he does, 9 out of 10 hackers in front of the crowd can't even touch or begin to do. And when I saw him he had a keyboard on his side, possibly just a midi keyboard, but still he noodled on it, and I'm guessing it was settings and possibly adding something or other to a sound .... hard to tell from a distance.

There is nothing wrong with someone sitting down ... PERIOD. Only in America and England, where the "audience" is boss, is this a problem. And if it were me, there is money in the USA but if I can not sit down ... no playing in the USA ... would you rather not have KC with RF sitting, then?

I really think that this audience "demand/ego" needs to be let go ... and thinking that a guy trying to prance around like an ugly ballerina will be better than Robert Fripp ... 

Proof positive that Bob could, in fact, stand AND play guitar!  (The lass is his sister, Patricia).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 03:59
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
Yeah, Fripp never learned that he had to stand up and play guitar onstage!!  LOL

That is what Lake told him, anyway.  
...

Hi,

Please stop this ... his ability is tied to all the electronics he uses and pedals ... and what he does, 9 out of 10 hackers in front of the crowd can't even touch or begin to do. And when I saw him he had a keyboard on his side, possibly just a midi keyboard, but still he noodled on it, and I'm guessing it was settings and possibly adding something or other to a sound .... hard to tell from a distance.

There is nothing wrong with someone sitting down ... PERIOD. Only in America and England, where the "audience" is boss, is this a problem. And if it were me, there is money in the USA but if I can not sit down ... no playing in the USA ... would you rather not have KC with RF sitting, then?

I really think that this audience "demand/ego" needs to be let go ... and thinking that a guy trying to prance around like an ugly ballerina will be better than Robert Fripp ... 

Proof positive that Bob could, in fact, stand AND play guitar!  (The lass is his sister, Patricia).


Yes, but with great difficulty it seems. Is sis standing there in case he falls down? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 13:49
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Well, I do think that, even though King Crimson did some different things along the way, the Schizoid Man sort of songs, and later on A Sailor's Tale and Larks Tongues in Aspic (both parts) remained the basis for a fair amount of their songs later on.


But those songs themselves draw from widely different eras of the band, so therein the point.  Their 'signature' to the extent there is one is much wider than any of the big prog rock bands.  The main reason being that (a) the big prog rock bands usually had a stable line up for at least 4-5 albums at a stretch while no KC formation lasted beyond three at the most (and only the two best line ups lasted that long - Wetton-KC and Belew-KC) and (b) most of the big prog rock bands, with the exception of VDGG, either willingly pursued a commercial direction or were pushed into one by their labels, with only Floyd and Rush finding a middle ground where they could remain accessible without descending into silliness.  

Interestingly, the THRAK lineup only supplemented the Discipline formation rather than replacing it because Fripp was seemingly loath to let go of the stellar Belew and Levin (as also long time collaborator Bruford) and the newness came more from the long hiatus between Three of A Perfect Pair and THRAK.  Even so, THRAK-Power to Believe is one of their least impressive phases and certainly less impressive than Wetton-KC and 80s Belew-KC and did not in my estimation live up to Bruford's lofty boast that you can hear the future of music on a KC album.  Fripp, instead, was not immune to the general confusion faced by those rock musicians who refused to embrace more keyboard or electronic led trends found in both EDM (duh) and alt rock/Brit pop.  This suggests that Fripp's previous artistic success did rely on not letting a line up continue to the point where it had nothing new left to say.  


Still, exactly the fact that such songs draw from widely different eras, yet are so similar, is what makes me doubt that they were really so very eclectic... granted of course, that besides them, there are some other widely different songs / styles at other parts of the albums.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 14:13
Originally posted by Fysix Fysix wrote:

Will definitely do that! One part that I have been discussing would be listening to several versions on the "same" song back-to-back. I suppose with KC there should be some cases where recorded versions (e.g. of Schizoid) change dramatically over the decades and lineups…


Actually, many times they didn't really change that much from one live era to another... like Schizoid Man, it has remained heavier and more guitar led every since... however, the middle section that is so open for improvising and changing does vary in interesting ways. And depending on the line-up, it can have the sax back, or the double guitars, bass, and / or drums, or whatever... mostly, they can have some interesting variations that could make you prefer one over the other... but if you're expecting dramatic changes, you might be slightly disappointed. Still, such variations have been enough, for example to make me like songs that I didn't really like before, like The Letters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2020 at 23:06
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Still, exactly the fact that such songs draw from widely different eras, yet are so similar, is what makes me doubt that they were really so very eclectic... granted of course, that besides them, there are some other widely different songs / styles at other parts of the albums.

Ah, but if you apply the same riff/progression test to the other big names of prog, in the same spirit as you now propose to for KC, you will find that they repeat a lot, lot more compared to KC.  I don't have access to my keyboard for now and until the lockdown is lifted otherwise I could play motifs from different Genesis albums side by side and record clips of the same to show how similar they are.  I could do the same for Rush, Yes, ELP etc.  To say nothing of Pink Floyd or Tull who were even more repetitive.  

As opposed to all of this, you will not find the Frame by Frame riff (the fast interlocking one played by Fripp, not the Belew figure) in any of the previous KC albums.  Not only that, there is no similar riff in any rock album of reasonable repute.  There MAY be something in the deep trenches of the underground that I am not aware of, but the only riff that is somewhat like the Frame by Frame is the one on Talking Heads' I Zimbra.  Which featured Fripp on guitar so I guess he had something (or maybe a lot) to do with that riff?

I am not saying this because I am a KC fan.  Because I am a fan of all those other prog rock bands I mentioned above as well.  But I haven't heard where they radically reinvented themselves in the way KC did on Discipline.  Likewise, the change from ITCOTCK to Larks-Red is drastic.  To take only Schizoid Man and compare is the wrong way to go about it.  ITCOTCK also had lush symphonic prog by way of I Talk To The Wind, Epitaph and In The Court of the Crimson King.  Fripp completely moved away from it on these albums with only Starless having nods to symphonic prog.  

Again, ITCOTCK, in totality, has nothing like the slow guitar-bass progression of Starless or even the dramatic guitar-saxophone breakdown that follows.  Even the middle section of Schizoid Man is very structure and almost tame compared to the instrumental section of Starless.  From the other bands, the only one that at least undertook a comparable journey as ITCOCK to Red is Yes from TFTO to Relayer.  

I would go so far as to say I don't even think Genesis had the capability to reinvent themselves so dramatically (which is probably why three man Genesis chose to go the pop way given they were always capable of writing catchy pop-rock songs).  Maybe Collins by himself could adjust to any kind of music but Banks and Rutherford were relatively limited while eminently suitable for the music they generally chose to play.  In Rush, similarly, the weak link was Lifeson while Geddy and Peart seemed to be capable of getting to wherever they wanted to. This was another reason Fripp kept shaking up the line up (and then got stuck with the Belew-Levin-Bruford formation); he only wanted flexible and adaptable musicians in his line up which was fair enough seeing as he himself was prepared to unlearn and re-learn so much and keep moving. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 00:22
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

...
Yeah, Fripp never learned that he had to stand up and play guitar onstage!!  LOL

That is what Lake told him, anyway.  
...

Hi,

Please stop this ... his ability is tied to all the electronics he uses and pedals ... and what he does, 9 out of 10 hackers in front of the crowd can't even touch or begin to do. And when I saw him he had a keyboard on his side, possibly just a midi keyboard, but still he noodled on it, and I'm guessing it was settings and possibly adding something or other to a sound .... hard to tell from a distance.

There is nothing wrong with someone sitting down ... PERIOD. Only in America and England, where the "audience" is boss, is this a problem. And if it were me, there is money in the USA but if I can not sit down ... no playing in the USA ... would you rather not have KC with RF sitting, then?

I really think that this audience "demand/ego" needs to be let go ... and thinking that a guy trying to prance around like an ugly ballerina will be better than Robert Fripp ... 

Proof positive that Bob could, in fact, stand AND play guitar!  (The lass is his sister, Patricia).


Yes, but with great difficulty it seems. Is sis standing there in case he falls down? LOL

LOL!  He was a bit of a chubbie it would appear!  In an email, Patricia told me "That photo is the day after Brother received his first guitar when he was 11 or 12"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 03:22
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Still, exactly the fact that such songs draw from widely different eras, yet are so similar, is what makes me doubt that they were really so very eclectic... granted of course, that besides them, there are some other widely different songs / styles at other parts of the albums.

Ah, but if you apply the same riff/progression test to the other big names of prog, in the same spirit as you now propose to for KC, you will find that they repeat a lot, lot more compared to KC.  I don't have access to my keyboard for now and until the lockdown is lifted otherwise I could play motifs from different Genesis albums side by side and record clips of the same to show how similar they are.  I could do the same for Rush, Yes, ELP etc.  To say nothing of Pink Floyd or Tull who were even more repetitive.  

As opposed to all of this, you will not find the Frame by Frame riff (the fast interlocking one played by Fripp, not the Belew figure) in any of the previous KC albums.  Not only that, there is no similar riff in any rock album of reasonable repute.  There MAY be something in the deep trenches of the underground that I am not aware of, but the only riff that is somewhat like the Frame by Frame is the one on Talking Heads' I Zimbra.  Which featured Fripp on guitar so I guess he had something (or maybe a lot) to do with that riff?

I am not saying this because I am a KC fan.  Because I am a fan of all those other prog rock bands I mentioned above as well.  But I haven't heard where they radically reinvented themselves in the way KC did on Discipline.  Likewise, the change from ITCOTCK to Larks-Red is drastic.  To take only Schizoid Man and compare is the wrong way to go about it.  ITCOTCK also had lush symphonic prog by way of I Talk To The Wind, Epitaph and In The Court of the Crimson King.  Fripp completely moved away from it on these albums with only Starless having nods to symphonic prog.  

Again, ITCOTCK, in totality, has nothing like the slow guitar-bass progression of Starless or even the dramatic guitar-saxophone breakdown that follows.  Even the middle section of Schizoid Man is very structure and almost tame compared to the instrumental section of Starless.  From the other bands, the only one that at least undertook a comparable journey as ITCOCK to Red is Yes from TFTO to Relayer.  

I would go so far as to say I don't even think Genesis had the capability to reinvent themselves so dramatically (which is probably why three man Genesis chose to go the pop way given they were always capable of writing catchy pop-rock songs).  Maybe Collins by himself could adjust to any kind of music but Banks and Rutherford were relatively limited while eminently suitable for the music they generally chose to play.  In Rush, similarly, the weak link was Lifeson while Geddy and Peart seemed to be capable of getting to wherever they wanted to. This was another reason Fripp kept shaking up the line up (and then got stuck with the Belew-Levin-Bruford formation); he only wanted flexible and adaptable musicians in his line up which was fair enough seeing as he himself was prepared to unlearn and re-learn so much and keep moving. 

Rush rant:

****I think that's the second time I've seen Lifeson mentioned as the weak link in Rush on this forum. If your definition of "weak link" is least technically skilled player, I guess he might qualify, at least in the shadows on Peart and Geddy (in most other bands he'd be a leading talent). If it has more to do with versatility and variety, I reckon he's in the upper echelon. There's little resemblance between his playing on Working Man and his playing on Red Sector A. Even the jump between his solos on La Villa Strangiato vs. his solo on Kid Gloves is astounding. Alex's playing evolved to fit what the music called for. If he'd been unable to adapt, then the band never would've evolved or they would've fired him. And if it comes down to writing, Lifeson is responsible for coming up with probably half of all the music in Rush's discography, maybe more. Geddy wrote too, especially in the synth years, but for a lot of the more guitar oriented stuff I have a feeling he mostly followed Alex's lead and wrote a melody to go on top. Take Lifeson out of Rush and it isn't Rush at all, it's just one of the best rhythm sections in rock and roll.*****

But back to the topic. Even if KC is one of the least repetitive bands out there, which in many senses they probably are, I still hear commonalities in the music spanning their whole run of 70s releases. The slinking jazzy riffs on Pictures Of A City seem to me an obvious influence on the moody bass driven improv of the Wetton lineup, and certainly on the slow build up jam in Starless. That's not to claim it's the only relevant or important influence, just one of them. I think I hear similar melodic instincts at play between Epitaph and Fallen Angel for another example. If nothing else, Fripp's menacing guitar tones may have evolved from album to album in the 70s, but it's a very directional evolution, as though with every album he gets a little closer to the sound of Red and a little further from the sound of 21CSM. Sailor's Tale is certainly a precursor to his work on the next few albums. I'm not arguing that KC didn't drastically change between most every album (the first two being an exception), but that for all the drastic changes to their sound and style, certain components of the ever elusive KC sound were always present in some form or another. I really think to find any band that shifts so drastically between albums that their earlier work has nothing remotely in common with their later work is a practically impossible task. Musicians are always going to sound at least a little bit like themselves.






Edited by Sacro_Porgo - April 09 2020 at 03:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 04:12
Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:


****I think that's the second time I've seen Lifeson mentioned as the weak link in Rush on this forum. If your definition of "weak link" is least technically skilled player, I guess he might qualify, at least in the shadows on Peart and Geddy (in most other bands he'd be a leading talent). If it has more to do with versatility and variety, I reckon he's in the upper echelon. There's little resemblance between his playing on Working Man and his playing on Red Sector A. Even the jump between his solos on La Villa Strangiato vs. his solo on Kid Gloves is astounding. Alex's playing evolved to fit what the music called for. If he'd been unable to adapt, then the band never would've evolved or they would've fired him. And if it comes down to writing, Lifeson is responsible for coming up with probably half of all the music in Rush's discography, maybe more. Geddy wrote too, especially in the synth years, but for a lot of the more guitar oriented stuff I have a feeling he mostly followed Alex's lead and wrote a melody to go on top. Take Lifeson out of Rush and it isn't Rush at all, it's just one of the best rhythm sections in rock and roll.*****

I do mean in terms of technicality because, yes, he falls short of the level of Peart or Geddy.  I do not know if he would necessarily be a leading talent in most bands.  It depends how we define most bands.  Most bands in the absolute sense, yes, because Rush is one of the very best bands in the world.  But among other such 'best' bands, particularly guitar oriented ones in the field of prog, not sure he ranks that high.  Would he be able to achieve more for Yes than Steve Howe, for instance?  Have my doubts and I say this as someone who only likes Howe when he goes classical/acoustic.

I don't think the question of firing him would have ever arisen because they were best buddies.  But I will allow that it wasn't just his own limitations but also the generally conservative tastes of the trio as a whole which meant he didn't necessarily have to get pulled into directions he didn't like anyway.  He complained when they went into a keyboard drenched direction in the mid 80s and they duly pulled back to accommodate him.

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

 I'm not arguing that KC didn't drastically change between most every album (the first two being an exception), but that for all the drastic changes to their sound and style, certain components of the ever elusive KC sound were always present in some form or another. I really think to find any band that shifts so drastically between albums that their earlier work has nothing remotely in common with their later work is a practically impossible task. Musicians are always going to sound at least a little bit like themselves.



I agree with all of this but when this is extrapolated into an argument that KC did not in fact have more changes or variety than their peers, I would disagree.  I am not saying you said that but some of the other posts seem to be leading to that line of argument. I was making the point that there is a difference between continuity in terms of root musical ideas which tend to be deeply ingrained in a musician (and which KC too cannot completely escape) and continuity in terms of sound which I would certainly argue is much greater in the case of other bands, specifically Rush, compared to KC.  I don't even know how somebody listens to ITCOTCK and Larks and says they sound the same in the same breath as saying Rush had a lot of variety.  Yes, in a manner of speaking, Rush did have variety, they were not the Iron Maiden of prog.  But if those changes amount to 'variety', surely from ITCOTCK to Larks is a massive leap. I think it's also the case then that when people don't particularly dig the work of a band, its work sounds samey to them even if it isn't necessarily. I know a guy who doesn't dig Radiohead because he finds Yorke's voice whiny.  I can easily imagine him complaining Radiohead albums sound the same.  And asking him to actually listen to them probably wouldn't make a difference because he is not going to hear what I hear.


Edited by rogerthat - April 09 2020 at 04:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2020 at 11:23
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:


****I think that's the second time I've seen Lifeson mentioned as the weak link in Rush on this forum. If your definition of "weak link" is least technically skilled player, I guess he might qualify, at least in the shadows on Peart and Geddy (in most other bands he'd be a leading talent). If it has more to do with versatility and variety, I reckon he's in the upper echelon. There's little resemblance between his playing on Working Man and his playing on Red Sector A. Even the jump between his solos on La Villa Strangiato vs. his solo on Kid Gloves is astounding. Alex's playing evolved to fit what the music called for. If he'd been unable to adapt, then the band never would've evolved or they would've fired him. And if it comes down to writing, Lifeson is responsible for coming up with probably half of all the music in Rush's discography, maybe more. Geddy wrote too, especially in the synth years, but for a lot of the more guitar oriented stuff I have a feeling he mostly followed Alex's lead and wrote a melody to go on top. Take Lifeson out of Rush and it isn't Rush at all, it's just one of the best rhythm sections in rock and roll.*****

I do mean in terms of technicality because, yes, he falls short of the level of Peart or Geddy.  I do not know if he would necessarily be a leading talent in most bands.  It depends how we define most bands.  Most bands in the absolute sense, yes, because Rush is one of the very best bands in the world.  But among other such 'best' bands, particularly guitar oriented ones in the field of prog, not sure he ranks that high.  Would he be able to achieve more for Yes than Steve Howe, for instance?  Have my doubts and I say this as someone who only likes Howe when he goes classical/acoustic.

I don't think the question of firing him would have ever arisen because they were best buddies.  But I will allow that it wasn't just his own limitations but also the generally conservative tastes of the trio as a whole which meant he didn't necessarily have to get pulled into directions he didn't like anyway.  He complained when they went into a keyboard drenched direction in the mid 80s and they duly pulled back to accommodate him.

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

 I'm not arguing that KC didn't drastically change between most every album (the first two being an exception), but that for all the drastic changes to their sound and style, certain components of the ever elusive KC sound were always present in some form or another. I really think to find any band that shifts so drastically between albums that their earlier work has nothing remotely in common with their later work is a practically impossible task. Musicians are always going to sound at least a little bit like themselves.



I agree with all of this but when this is extrapolated into an argument that KC did not in fact have more changes or variety than their peers, I would disagree.  I am not saying you said that but some of the other posts seem to be leading to that line of argument. I was making the point that there is a difference between continuity in terms of root musical ideas which tend to be deeply ingrained in a musician (and which KC too cannot completely escape) and continuity in terms of sound which I would certainly argue is much greater in the case of other bands, specifically Rush, compared to KC.  I don't even know how somebody listens to ITCOTCK and Larks and says they sound the same in the same breath as saying Rush had a lot of variety.  Yes, in a manner of speaking, Rush did have variety, they were not the Iron Maiden of prog.  But if those changes amount to 'variety', surely from ITCOTCK to Larks is a massive leap. I think it's also the case then that when people don't particularly dig the work of a band, its work sounds samey to them even if it isn't necessarily. I know a guy who doesn't dig Radiohead because he finds Yorke's voice whiny.  I can easily imagine him complaining Radiohead albums sound the same.  And asking him to actually listen to them probably wouldn't make a difference because he is not going to hear what I hear.

I give Lifeson more credit than that for the 80s stuff. He generally liked most of the material they played, he just got tired of it after almost a whole decade (and did have his quibbles the couple times a synth solo replaced his guitar solo). But I can see the argument that he isn't the greatest among the likes of Howe or Fripp or some of the other prog rock juggernauts. I disagree in my personal taste, but I can see it.

But yeah totally agree with what you're saying about KC here. And that Radiohead anecdote is a great point. There was a time when I didn't really like Iron Maiden, despite loving a lot of other classic metal, and one of my main reasons was that they just sounded to samey from song to song. I dug in deeper, heard a song or two that surprised me, and eventually fell in love. Now I still think they're kind of the AC/DC of metal (it's either them or Slayer), but I hear through all that sameness and find the key differences between songs that makes them each unique. So I definitely think that people who don't like a particular band (or at least don't "get" them) are prone to thinking all their music sounds the same. I wonder if that holds water with critics of Queen, lol.
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TexasKing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2020 at 02:17
Is King Crimson music more complex than Yes and much more complex than Rush?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 09:04
Its not really about complexity. Red is not complex but Larks Tongues In Aspic is. I prefer the former as I like music to be 'centred' but there are plenty that prefer it be more 'un-shackled'. I realise I'm being vague but not being a musician it's not that easy to explain my feelings about certain things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geekfreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 09:27
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Its not really about complexity. Red is not complex but Larks Tongues In Aspic is. I prefer the former as I like music to be 'centred' but there are plenty that prefer it be more 'un-shackled'. I realise I'm being vague but not being a musician it's not that easy to explain my feelings about certain things.
 


Music is a personnel taste option like you my take on the two albums you`ve mentioned I am total emotional state of mind when listening to them Red is my number one Crimson album, it may just be people didn`t like the constant line-up changes.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2020 at 00:55
Originally posted by TexasKing TexasKing wrote:

Is King Crimson music more complex than Yes and much more complex than Rush?



Good question, because I consider both bands to have peaked when Bill Bruford was involved! I'm a Yes fan boi to the end, but LTIA just might have a bit more complexity than anything Yes every put out with Bruford.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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