The (Factually) Greatest Drummer

thellama73 wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: Hey, so I went looking around for this review as this thread kind of reminded me of it - it's one of my favorite reviews I've ever read, which of course is partially due to the fact that I agree with everything the writer says.  And it's very well written (the guy writes novels, so it should be).  But he says some very interesting things that address the complaints I hear so often around here especially about how "it's not all about skill, man!"  Check this out: http://orullian.com/testpress/uncategorized/why-you-should-be-listening-to-dream-theater-writers-too/   I read the article and would like to address it in all seriousness. Apart from the writer sounding like a stuck up, arrogant snob, he  really misses the point of why people don't like Dream Theater. He claims that people who say they sound sterile are either jealous of their abilities or incapable of appreciating musicianship. That's nonsense. Most of the people here who don't like DT love other highly technical bands like King Crimson, and I think we can all appreciate Mozart. We don't dislike the fact that they are good at their instruments, we dislike the fact that there seems to be nothing else behind the raw technicality. Mozart wrote beautiful melodies and intricate counterpoint. The technique was a means to an end, not the end itself. King Crimson was wildly experimental, but also came out with some simple and touching music that stressed content over form. Fripp was smart enough to know that, although he had the chops, he didn't need to shred on Epitaph and Lady of the Dancing Water, and as was mentioned before, Bruford had the restraint to know when not to play on Trio. He claims that they are great composers because they write long songs that don't adhere to verse-chorus-verse-chorus patterns. We like lots of bands that do that, but rejection of traditional structure does not a great song make. He claims that the lyrics are brilliant, but to me the example he quoted sounds adolescent and trite (not that prog is well known for having great lyrics.) It seems to me that he is basically saying "if you don't like Dream Theater, you're not smart or sophisticated like me." and that is a stupid thing to say. Their music just doesn't connect on a personal level with many of us, and as he keeps repeating "music is personal."

I can see why you might say the review sounds snobbish - I've often thought the people around here who hate DT sound snobbish.    But as to there being nothing behind their raw technicality, I would obviously disagree with you as DT have even had songs that brought tears to my eyes.  And I'd quote a line from the review, which really strikes a chord with me as I also don't enjoy country:
"I suppose it’s like me hearing Kenny Chesney and Garth Brooks and Dwight Yoakum and Hank Williams and Johnny Cash and Willie Nelson and Charlie Pride and Conway Twitty and saying: “Yeah, they’re all the same.”"

I think a lot of the people around here who say DT have become sterile aren't really metal fans, and so they have this same problem with not being able to hear any difference from metal album to metal album.  And really, it's fine - it's all a preference.  You like King Crimson, I myself have never been able to really get into them (I've tried - they're just not "my thing", and that's ok.  I'm not going to write a scathing review or call them sterile either.)  I just wish people around here at PA would admit that this is all it is: preference.

Oh, and to the apple powerbook thing - obviously I have other reasons (some I've mentioned in this thread) that I like Mangini besides his speed.  It's just icing on the cake that I can actually say my favorite has a measurable quantity that he is currently greatest at.  But if some other drummer came along and beat his record, that wouldn't make him my next favorite. 

And to the people who argue Portnoy is greater - believe me, I've been where you are.  I was heartbroken when Portnoy left, and scared that DT would not recover.  But even then, I had this sense of hope that the event would end up being good for them, because I had felt for some time that DT was growing stale, and I had this sneaking suspicion that Portnoy didn't really want to be a Prog drummer any more.  I mean, I know for some people this is their favorite album - and I celebrate the fact that different people like DT for different reasons, I really do - but Train of Thought was my least favorite DT album, and that was Portnoy's brainchild.  So when he left, though I was heartbroken and will miss him being a part of the band always, I did have this sense of hope that Portnoy's departure might actually be good for them.  And I was actually satisfied in that aspect - I think "A Dramatic Turn of Events" is the most Progressive album they've put forth in a number of years and I consider it one of their three best albums.  But this is me - it's all just preference.  I just wish the people who write the negative reviews of that album calling it stale would admit the same - it's all just preference.

dtguitarfan wrote: HolyMoly wrote: thellama73 wrote: HolyMoly wrote: thellama73 wrote:   An Apple powerbook is the best drummer in the world! Why don't all bands use them? Ooh, I got one of those. Me too! And by any objective measure (speed, precision, endurance, volume) it is far better than the drummer from Dream Theater, and indeed every human drummer. I guess that shows that objective measures aren't very meaningful when it comes to music. True, but they're not meaningless either.  I don't think so anyway. THIS!!!!!!!

No argument here.

dtguitarfan wrote: Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Now, speaking of speed records; didn't Alex Lifeson at one point hold the world record for fastest guitarist, or am I mistaken? I haven't heard that, but would be interested to know if it's true.  The only fastest guitarist record I've heard of was this one: http://www.break.com/usercontent/2008/8/fastest-guitarist-world-s-record-broken-at-320bpm-547775

I've seen that, and thought it was absolutely terrible, but you can't expect the greatest solo in the world from someone who's trying to break a speed record.  It would be interesting to see what he could do with an actual song, because whatever you think of him, you have to admit that he can play pretty darn fast.

Finally the Nazi card.....we can move on now, Thanks T

Haha, I don't know who was "blowing this up" as I'd think that implies anger - I was never angry.  Was someone angry?  But as to who we THINK is good - this thread was about facts.  And Mike Mangini is factually the best in a certain aspect of drumming.  

But I paid for an argument.

progbethyname wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: Haha, I don't know who was "blowing this up" as I'd think that implies anger - I was never angry.  Was someone angry?  But as to who we THINK is good - this thread was about facts.  And Mike Mangini is factually the best in a certain aspect of drumming.   No anger bud. I know that and it's great to be passionate for what you love. I certainly feel strongly about my musical tastes as well. Just be thankful that you, the individual, was able to discover greatness for yourself. With that being said I'm gonna listen to MICK POINTER on the ARENA album 'CONTAGION'. Drums his ass off on that one. Beautiful stuff 👌

You know what, I actually really like Contagion.  I haven't been able to get into any of the other Arena albums I've tried out yet, but I do like Contagion - really great album!


Edited by dtguitarfan - September 21 2012 at 17:21

progbethyname wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: Haha, I don't know who was "blowing this up" as I'd think that implies anger - I was never angry.  Was someone angry?  But as to who we THINK is good - this thread was about facts.  And Mike Mangini is factually the best in a certain aspect of drumming.   No anger bud. I know that and it's great to be passionate for what you love. I certainly feel strongly about my musical tastes as well. Just be thankful that you, the individual, was able to discover greatness for yourself. With that being said I'm gonna listen to MICK POINTER on the ARENA album 'CONTAGION'. Drums his ass off on that one. Beautiful stuff 👌

Oh, people actually like him?  Guess my joke about him on the last page must have fallen flat, then (not that I dislike him, it's just that, before now, I've only heard criticism of him).

dtguitarfan wrote: Ambient Hurricanes wrote: progbethyname wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: Haha, I don't know who was "blowing this up" as I'd think that implies anger - I was never angry.  Was someone angry?  But as to who we THINK is good - this thread was about facts.  And Mike Mangini is factually the best in a certain aspect of drumming.   No anger bud. I know that and it's great to be passionate for what you love. I certainly feel strongly about my musical tastes as well. Just be thankful that you, the individual, was able to discover greatness for yourself. With that being said I'm gonna listen to MICK POINTER on the ARENA album 'CONTAGION'. Drums his ass off on that one. Beautiful stuff 👌 Oh, people actually like him?  Guess my joke about him on the last page must have fallen flat, then (not that I dislike him, it's just that, before now, I've only heard criticism of him). Where? Here? People criticize everything here, and unless there are die hard fans you might never hear a contradiction...

Well, there certainly are some die-hard Marillion fans; I just got the impression that he wasn't a very popular drummer with people on here, but that's from a limited viewpoint, so I'm probably quite wrong indeed.

The T wrote: They should really measure who's the fastest singer in the world.

Does rapping count?  In that case, it has to be Tech N9ne.