Did Rush influence Prog Metal?

Logan wrote: SteveG wrote: Logan wrote: And has anyone mentioned yet the Progressive Metal band Heart of Cygnus? http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=5403 By the way, it is my belief that Rush both inspired and influenced Dream Theater. The inspiration had an effect on the music. This from Doug, "Metropolis Part 1 by Dream Theater, a song which according to the members of Dream Theater, is heavily inspired by Rush. In the instrumental yes, but also the subject matter as well as the idea of adding (Part 1) was inspired by the two Cygnus's" definitely indicates influence to me. If that inspiration leads to creation/action then that can be called influence. I disagree that there is no relation between the terms/ concepts. Influence: "the power to have an effect on people or things, or a person or thing that is able to do this:" Inspiration: "the process of being mentally stimulated to do or feel something, especially to do something creative." It seems abundantly clear to me that Rush had an effect on Dream Theater band members and on those band members' music. Your definition of influence pertains to the action of someone or something having a sway or control over another, if they realize it or not. For example, "Joey was a bad influence on Mark" and does not define influence as it pertains to an intellectual property or art or practice when used as a paradigm to create some form of art or manufactured work.   To make it simple, when a person is charged by the Police for driving drunk, the charge against the person is for "driving under the influence of alcohol". The person is not charged for "driving under the inspiration of alcohol". The man was inspired to get drunk. Being drunk was an influence on his inability to drive a car, and that was the crime. One came before the other, but is not the same thing. Being inspired entails a desire or need to do something or create something. An influence is the actual effect on that creation, by the inspired person, to create or make something that is based, to some degree, on an existing paradigm or model.    Now to be fair, I stated music does not exist in a vacuum and will have influences from other genres, either created consciously or subconsciously. So, there should be some similarities, though fleeting, from one prog genre to another. I also stated that prog metal groups took influence for song structures from Rush with little or no musical influence. I could have easily said that prog metal groups took these complex song structures as an influence from listening to old prog groups like Yes or Genesis. If they had never listened to Rush in their lives, complex songs featuring overtures, suites, etc., would have still been created in their music. What group came first? Yes or Rush? But to be sensible I said Rush was an influence, but it could be argued that they were not. They do not have a monopoly on creating prog songs, others went before them and could rightly be held up as the true influence, with Rush merely a conduit to expose them.   However, we have to be sensible on these things. Rush has influence, just not the overwhelming influence on prog metal that has been afforded to them. Prog metal is much more organic in that aspect.    Edit: spelling. (my bad) Those are just the first definitions I found and copied from online dictionaries. I can't find my much better and more comprehensive OED (in book form). I haven't taken issue with what you've written except that there is no relation between the influence and inspiration terms. Not the same, not synonyms, but a relation, and that relationship I have tried to demonstrate. Also from the first online definition I came across now: "belonging to the same family, group, or type; connected. associated with the specified item or process, especially causally." There is a causal relation between being under the influence of alcohol and being inspired to get drunk. There is a causal relation between DT being inspired by Rush and being influenced by Rush in the creation of the music . There are connections to be made between the terms/ concepts from a classification perspective. I can't say how much Rush has been emulated by Prog Metal bands or the degree to which PM bands such as Dream Theater have been either influenced or inspired by Rush. I'm not one that would claim that it is the major influence (one of a great many influences), but I do believe that it has been a significant influence (which is not a very informative statement) on various Prog Metal bands. To answer the topic title question: I am confident that Rush has had an influence on Prog Metal. To what degree, I don't know, and don't believe that I could know.

Causal relationships do not take intent into consideration. It was not the intent of the person to get drunk and drive a car, but his need to be mobile caused a secondary set of circumstances that he did not foresee in his altered state. But being reasonable, we must assume an action like that could occur, or an severe accident, or a hit and run, etc. These are reasonable assumptions. It is not reasonable that an inspired musician would set out to make music that boarders on plagiarism or bears an uncanny resemblance to the music that inspired him. That is not part of what we would reasonably assume would happen, without intent. Unless he was drunk and lost his ability to reason.

Edited by SteveG - October 07 2020 at 10:13

SteveG wrote: Catcher10 wrote: Steve I think you're being too picky at what you are trying to pull out of members responses here in this thread......Again, as I said earlier trying to quantify how much is probably impossible, putting some % or ranking number on how much a band influenced or inspired another band is...I don't know wrong or simply not important. These are all opinions and I don't think anyone has categorically said "Rush was the only and/or top influencer/inspiration to creating ProgMetal. They were not the major influence but one of the major influences early on. Read my first post on page 1.....You seem to think Rush is to me like the Beatles is to you...WRONG!!! I am more realistic, Rush were a massive influence to many bands for many reasons, there are too many interviews to deny this, but I don't think they were THE band for the current prog metal bands...I agree with Logan, the two words are connected, almost at the hip at least in the case of discussing music. Also re-read your original question...."I say it was more a case of inspiration on bands like Dream Theater as opposed to actual musical influence. What say you?" I think you are really asking is if Rush's musical style was an influence to bands like Dream Theater. And my opinion is the same on both influence and inspiration....Yes And to what degree....A teeny tiny bit or a whopping huge amount?? Who cares.... I explained numerous times that I think their influence was quite marginal and nothing more. Again: "...."I say it was more a case of inspiration on bands like Dream Theater as opposed to actual musical influence. What say you?"    But if were quibbling over degrees, than lets call the whole thing off.   And start a thread about the influence of The Beatles on jazz.    Agreed?

We're on The Beatles now. Sorry.

Edited by SteveG - October 07 2020 at 10:31

SteveG wrote: Catcher10 wrote: Steve I think you're being too picky at what you are trying to pull out of members responses here in this thread......Again, as I said earlier trying to quantify how much is probably impossible, putting some % or ranking number on how much a band influenced or inspired another band is...I don't know wrong or simply not important. These are all opinions and I don't think anyone has categorically said "Rush was the only and/or top influencer/inspiration to creating ProgMetal. They were not the major influence but one of the major influences early on. Read my first post on page 1.....You seem to think Rush is to me like the Beatles is to you...WRONG!!! I am more realistic, Rush were a massive influence to many bands for many reasons, there are too many interviews to deny this, but I don't think they were THE band for the current prog metal bands...I agree with Logan, the two words are connected, almost at the hip at least in the case of discussing music. Also re-read your original question...."I say it was more a case of inspiration on bands like Dream Theater as opposed to actual musical influence. What say you?" I think you are really asking is if Rush's musical style was an influence to bands like Dream Theater. And my opinion is the same on both influence and inspiration....Yes And to what degree....A teeny tiny bit or a whopping huge amount?? Who cares.... I explained numerous times that I think their influence was quite marginal and nothing more. Again: "...."I say it was more a case of inspiration on bands like Dream Theater as opposed to actual musical influence. What say you?"    But if were quibbling over degrees, than lets call the whole thing off.   And start a thread about the influence of The Beatles on jazz.    Agreed?

SteveG wrote: Logan wrote: SteveG wrote: Logan wrote: And has anyone mentioned yet the Progressive Metal band Heart of Cygnus? http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=5403 By the way, it is my belief that Rush both inspired and influenced Dream Theater. The inspiration had an effect on the music. This from Doug, "Metropolis Part 1 by Dream Theater, a song which according to the members of Dream Theater, is heavily inspired by Rush. In the instrumental yes, but also the subject matter as well as the idea of adding (Part 1) was inspired by the two Cygnus's" definitely indicates influence to me. If that inspiration leads to creation/action then that can be called influence. I disagree that there is no relation between the terms/ concepts. Influence: "the power to have an effect on people or things, or a person or thing that is able to do this:" Inspiration: "the process of being mentally stimulated to do or feel something, especially to do something creative." It seems abundantly clear to me that Rush had an effect on Dream Theater band members and on those band members' music. Your definition of influence pertains to the action of someone or something having a sway or control over another, if they realize it or not. For example, "Joey was a bad influence on Mark" and does not define influence as it pertains to an intellectual property or art or practice when used as a paradigm to create some form of art or manufactured work.   To make it simple, when a person is charged by the Police for driving drunk, the charge against the person is for "driving under the influence of alcohol". The person is not charged for "driving under the inspiration of alcohol". The man was inspired to get drunk. Being drunk was an influence on his inability to drive a car, and that was the crime. One came before the other, but is not the same thing. Being inspired entails a desire or need to do something or create something. An influence is the actual effect on that creation, by the inspired person, to create or make something that is based, to some degree, on an existing paradigm or model.    Now to be fair, I stated music does not exist in a vacuum and will have influences from other genres, either created consciously or subconsciously. So, there should be some similarities, though fleeting, from one prog genre to another. I also stated that prog metal groups took influence for song structures from Rush with little or no musical influence. I could have easily said that prog metal groups took these complex song structures as an influence from listening to old prog groups like Yes or Genesis. If they had never listened to Rush in their lives, complex songs featuring overtures, suites, etc., would have still been created in their music. What group came first? Yes or Rush? But to be sensible I said Rush was an influence, but it could be argued that they were not. They do not have a monopoly on creating prog songs, others went before them and could rightly be held up as the true influence, with Rush merely a conduit to expose them.   However, we have to be sensible on these things. Rush has influence, just not the overwhelming influence on prog metal that has been afforded to them. Prog metal is much more organic in that aspect.    Edit: spelling. (my bad) Those are just the first definitions I found and copied from online dictionaries. I can't find my much better and more comprehensive OED (in book form). I haven't taken issue with what you've written except that there is no relation between the influence and inspiration terms. Not the same, not synonyms, but a relation, and that relationship I have tried to demonstrate. Also from the first online definition I came across now: "belonging to the same family, group, or type; connected. associated with the specified item or process, especially causally." There is a causal relation between being under the influence of alcohol and being inspired to get drunk. There is a causal relation between DT being inspired by Rush and being influenced by Rush in the creation of the music . There are connections to be made between the terms/ concepts from a classification perspective. I can't say how much Rush has been emulated by Prog Metal bands or the degree to which PM bands such as Dream Theater have been either influenced or inspired by Rush. I'm not one that would claim that it is the major influence (one of a great many influences), but I do believe that it has been a significant influence (which is not a very informative statement) on various Prog Metal bands. To answer the topic title question: I am confident that Rush has had an influence on Prog Metal. To what degree, I don't know, and don't believe that I could know. Causal relationships do not take intent into consideration. It was not the intent of the person to get drunk and drive a car, but his need to be mobile caused a secondary set of circumstances that he did not foresee in his altered state. But being reasonable, we must assume an action like that could occur, or an severe accident, or a hit and run, etc. These are reasonable assumptions. It is not reasonable that an inspired musician would set out to make music that boarders on plagiarism or bears an uncanny resemblance to the music that inspired him. That is not part of what we would reasonably assume would happen, without intent. Unless he was drunk and lost his ability to reason.   As we're getting into semantics, we will eventually come to a stalemate and have to agree to disagree. That's a reasonable assumption too.

Intent can be taken into consideration when examining a causal relationship. Artists have been sued for making music that was deemed to close to the material that inspired and influenced their "creativity". Sometimes it can happen quite subconsciously, sometimes there is conscious intent. There are many plagiarists.... I have known people who had the intent to drink, knowing it may put them over the limit, and planning to drive home later while making excuses. Where I live, to avoid a DUI one can't drink very much (.05 is the legal limit, which would hardly be what I would call drunk). But I don't really know where we're going with this, and while I don't like to agree to disagree (Dean influenced me in that regard), I do accept disagreement and different perspectives and approaches to truth-seeking, as well as the malleability of many terms and the relations between terms. The first novella I wrote was very much influenced by Douglas Adams, who was a great inspiration, and it did emulate certain qualities of his, but it was hardly plagiarism -- mostly cause I couldn't get get the handle on doing really "clever". ;) As is sometimes said, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery," but one needn't try to imitate to bear an influence.

Edited by Logan - October 07 2020 at 10:56

Steve wants an example of a band that sounds so blatantly Rush in their musical makeup, the proof is incontrovertible.

SteveG wrote: God, it took you 2 whole days to come up with a copycat? I'll play them right after I'm done listening to Klaatu !On with The Beatles!

Edited by verslibre - October 07 2020 at 12:06

Guess what? I went for a coffee and remembered a band I used to listen to in the '90s: a German prog-metal band called Sieges Even.

verslibre wrote: Guess what? I went for a coffee and remembered a band I used to listen to in the '90s: a German prog-metal band called Sieges Even. They were the rage of the Perpetual Motion message board for a hot minute, especially with we Rush fans.

Cristi wrote: you listened to them in the 90s?! Very cool! They released a progressive metal masterpiece in 2005 - The Art Of Navigating By The Stars. They shed their Rush influences though. A must listen if you ask me.