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Topic ClosedWhy not more ratings for Gentle Giant albums?

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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 00:18
The last two posts remind me of a thread I had made questioning the relevance of emotional resonance in prog and considering instead the notion of prog as essentially technical music. At that time nobody really gave much consideration to the premise but now it has been suggested that gg is meant more for either musicians or hardcore progheads. I suspect that progheads live in denial of its left brained orientation as that would provide a more logical explanation for its relatively narrow appeal rather than punk conspiracy theories or the appealing snobbery of intelligence.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 04:47
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Genital Giant Genital Giant wrote:

One thing that is tough about Gentle Giant is the sophistication and complexity of their music tends to go over most people's heads, even a lot of Prog fans. I'm a musician and a composer, and I've frankly never run into another GG fan who wasn't at least a musician themselves. I'm not saying you have to be a musician to appreciate GG, but it sure seems to help.
That may be;.....just curious.... how old are you and what instrument do you play?
Smile
 
I'm currently re-listening to the 7 GG studio albums I own and I'm on In A Glass House currently.
Some really fine songs but for me there are always a couple on every album that seem more like an exercise in 'self-indulgence ' and/or experimentation than true 'song craft'. And that's not meant as a negative comment per se.


I'm 44 and my main instrument is bass but I also play keys, guitar, and I sing.

 I would have to say just about all GG songs involve experimentation, they weren't really interested so much in writing "songs", they are compositions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 04:51
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

The last two posts remind me of a thread I had made questioning the relevance of emotional resonance in prog and considering instead the notion of prog as essentially technical music. At that time nobody really gave much consideration to the premise but now it has been suggested that gg is meant more for either musicians or hardcore progheads. I suspect that progheads live in denial of its left brained orientation as that would provide a more logical explanation for its relatively narrow appeal rather than punk conspiracy theories or the appealing snobbery of intelligence.


 Well, I don't think it's an either/or thing in music, like either you have something emotional or you have something intellectual, the best art has both.

 I would say prog's rather narrow appeal comes down to the fact that you have to listen to it to get much out of it. Most people don't actually listen to music, it's just background sound for their lives, like when they drive the car or do chores around the house, etc. Prog doesn't operate too well as muzak, as it were.

 Everybody loves music, but only a minority of people take the care to really sit down and listen to it.


Edited by Genital Giant - December 06 2013 at 04:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 08:21
Originally posted by Genital Giant Genital Giant wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

The last two posts remind me of a thread I had made questioning the relevance of emotional resonance in prog and considering instead the notion of prog as essentially technical music. At that time nobody really gave much consideration to the premise but now it has been suggested that gg is meant more for either musicians or hardcore progheads. I suspect that progheads live in denial of its left brained orientation as that would provide a more logical explanation for its relatively narrow appeal rather than punk conspiracy theories or the appealing snobbery of intelligence.


 Well, I don't think it's an either/or thing in music, like either you have something emotional or you have something intellectual, the best art has both.

 I would say prog's rather narrow appeal comes down to the fact that you have to listen to it to get much out of it. Most people don't actually listen to music, it's just background sound for their lives, like when they drive the car or do chores around the house, etc. Prog doesn't operate too well as muzak, as it were.

 Everybody loves music, but only a minority of people take the care to really sit down and listen to it.

I never said it's either/or.  But there's some music that does not lose its emotional resonance in the midst of all the complexity.  And then some whose appeal necessarily has to be explained in technical terms, which is what we are doing here with regard to GG and a lot of other prog too slots in this second category.  Why should we have to explain the appeal of GG in terms of the brilliance of their changes or the versatility of the musicians?  These are more academic aspects; music can be emotionally resonant without unthinkable changes or without five multi-instrumentalists.  Yes, as you said, it necessarily involves listening carefully to the music to appreciate these aspects but additionally also an interest in musical concept rather than emotions alone.  Most people who do like music also listen to it more for the emotions it conveys rather than concept.  I can understand why that would leave them disappointed sometimes when it comes to prog.  We ignore the somewhat goofy aspects of GG (like the synth break in Cry for Everyone) because we focus on the sheer brilliance with which the notes have been developed, mathematically.  That is not something that interests everyone, which limits the appeal of prog.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 09:25
I think it's something to do with their overt Robin Hood vibes that make them hard to get into. I love them myself, but I've tried getting a lot of likeminded progressive rock fans into them, and they all couldn't stand the Robin Hood quotient.

Personally I think they're rated pretty good here on PA. They don't have more than a 1000 ratings, yes, but do we really need more ratings without reviews for these albums? Do we need more reviews of these albums? Maybe so, but I could come up with a couple of hundred other interesting acts I'd prefer to highlight over GG. 
Maybe it's because I don't care about ratings enough to make them into a competition, but that's just me I guess.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 09:30
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I think it's something to do with their overt Robin Hood vibes that make them hard to get into. I love them myself, but I've tried getting a lot of likeminded progressive rock fans into them, and they all couldn't stand the Robin Hood quotient.

That's a good phrase - Robin Hood vibes.  There are parts that sound like music set to Tom & Jerry cartoons, esp the T&J kids series (which was actually made much later I think).  Yeah, I can see why that would be a huge turn off at least initially for listeners.  You don't have to get over anything in particular to listen to Yes or the first Crimson album.  I think it's great that this forum and others are keeping Gentle Giant's music alive to the extent they have, else this music would have likely faded out of memory.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 09:36
I believe the first step towards "acquiring the taste" is to watch one of there DVD s. Amazing band visually as well as sonically. Not many bands are as busy as they are.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 09:37
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I think it's something to do with their overt Robin Hood vibes that make them hard to get into. I love them myself, but I've tried getting a lot of likeminded progressive rock fans into them, and they all couldn't stand the Robin Hood quotient.

That's a good phrase - Robin Hood vibes.  There are parts that sound like music set to Tom & Jerry cartoons, esp the T&J kids series (which was actually made much later I think).  Yeah, I can see why that would be a huge turn off at least initially for listeners.  You don't have to get over anything in particular to listen to Yes or the first Crimson album.  I think it's great that this forum and others are keeping Gentle Giant's music alive to the extent they have, else this music would have likely faded out of memory.  


Thanks. 
and I think you're right about GG. They would most likely have been forgotten in the experimental rock files from the 70s, had it not been for places like this.
I also agree about the parallel to KC and Yes - unlike them GG never really went and made an "easy-to-get-into" album in their prime.Sure one could always go for the lacklustre pop releases, but then again why even bother? Every classic GG album features Robin Hood in full flex, now whether that's done through impossible vocal harmonies, Medieval instrumentation or clandestine bow and arrow tournaments - it's always there. Three Friends is perhaps the easiest of theirs to get into methinks, but I gather that's down to the symphonic qualities of it.


Edited by Guldbamsen - December 06 2013 at 09:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 09:37
^^^ And often times they play better - at least more energetically - in the live set.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 09:38
I don't see myself writing a review for GG and that's because I'd like to shed some light on the more obscure acts, and there are too much around. But still I think it's important to write reviews for them even though they have a few hundreds, and that's because those reviews can interest the newcomers and bring some new fans to band, like I was many years ago.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 09:53
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

^^^ And often times they play better - at least more energetically - in the live set.  




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 10:01
^^^  Love that, though I took to the German TV show more easily for whatever reason.  It's a lot of fun to see the entire band descending on the percussions at the end of that show.  And they are still playing in an organised way though they look like kids making a racket.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 13:50
Hey I'd like to know what early King Crimson album is easy to get into? Smile I'd say Free Hand and Octopus are easier to get into than Lizard or Islands. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 16:00
Originally posted by Prog_Traveller Prog_Traveller wrote:

Hey I'd like to know what early King Crimson album is easy to get into? Smile I'd say Free Hand and Octopus are easier to get into than Lizard or Islands. 


Their first album, In The Court Of The Crimson King, is the most accessible album they ever did. It also happens to be their best album, even though I like the 70's line-up better.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 17:20
Originally posted by Genital Giant Genital Giant wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Genital Giant Genital Giant wrote:

One thing that is tough about Gentle Giant is the sophistication and complexity of their music tends to go over most people's heads, even a lot of Prog fans. I'm a musician and a composer, and I've frankly never run into another GG fan who wasn't at least a musician themselves. I'm not saying you have to be a musician to appreciate GG, but it sure seems to help.
That may be;.....just curious.... how old are you and what instrument do you play?
Smile
 
I'm currently re-listening to the 7 GG studio albums I own and I'm on In A Glass House currently.
Some really fine songs but for me there are always a couple on every album that seem more like an exercise in 'self-indulgence ' and/or experimentation than true 'song craft'. And that's not meant as a negative comment per se.


I'm 44 and my main instrument is bass but I also play keys, guitar, and I sing.

 I would have to say just about all GG songs involve experimentation, they weren't really interested so much in writing "songs", they are compositions.
I don't think all of their  songs are experimental by any means...some are very accessible particularly on the first 2 albums. And imo 'songs' are compositions; some are merely more complex than others.
I'm currently listening to The Power and The Glory and that one and Acquiring The Taste are probably my 2 favorites.
There are many bands in  Avant Prog and RIO and even in other genres that are as complex as GG...and they are all an acquired taste....imho.
Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 17:26
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I think it's something to do with their overt Robin Hood vibes that make them hard to get into. I love them myself, but I've tried getting a lot of likeminded progressive rock fans into them, and they all couldn't stand the Robin Hood quotient.

Personally I think they're rated pretty good here on PA. They don't have more than a 1000 ratings, yes, but do we really need more ratings without reviews for these albums? Do we need more reviews of these albums? Maybe so, but I could come up with a couple of hundred other interesting acts I'd prefer to highlight over GG. 
Maybe it's because I don't care about ratings enough to make them into a competition, but that's just me I guess.
I've listened to GG from almost the beginning back in 1970/71;  I'm not sure what you mean by the Robin Hood vibe.....nor the Tom and Jerry analogy. Can you explain that a bit more?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 19:11
Originally posted by Genital Giant Genital Giant wrote:

Originally posted by Prog_Traveller Prog_Traveller wrote:

Hey I'd like to know what early King Crimson album is easy to get into? Smile I'd say Free Hand and Octopus are easier to get into than Lizard or Islands. 


Their first album, In The Court Of The Crimson King, is the most accessible album they ever did. It also happens to be their best album, even though I like the 70's line-up better.



Hmmmm. Not sure I agree with either statement(regarding the first being their best or their most accessible). I would say SABB and RED are more accessible maybe. I would agree with you about ITCOTCK if it wasn't for most of "moonchild" which sounds like noodling to me.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 19:18
Originally posted by Prog_Traveller Prog_Traveller wrote:


Hmmmm. Not sure I agree with either statement(regarding the first being their best or their most accessible). I would say SABB and RED are more accessible maybe. I would agree with you about ITCOTCK if it wasn't for most of "moonchild" which sounds like noodling to me.



Granted, Moonchild is the only weak tune on the album and does have a bit of aimless noodling. I would consider SABB and Red to be a bit more avant-garde and difficult to get into with the dissonant improvs on those albums (even though I love those improvs).

 Let me put it this way, my girlfriend's favorite album of all time is ITCOTCK but when I try to play her some SABB or Red she's like "this is too heavy metal for me". So, you know, I'm basing accessibility as "Chick-friendly". Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 19:45
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I think it's something to do with their overt Robin Hood vibes that make them hard to get into. I love them myself, but I've tried getting a lot of likeminded progressive rock fans into them, and they all couldn't stand the Robin Hood quotient.

Personally I think they're rated pretty good here on PA. They don't have more than a 1000 ratings, yes, but do we really need more ratings without reviews for these albums? Do we need more reviews of these albums? Maybe so, but I could come up with a couple of hundred other interesting acts I'd prefer to highlight over GG. 
Maybe it's because I don't care about ratings enough to make them into a competition, but that's just me I guess.
I've listened to GG from almost the beginning back in 1970/71;  I'm not sure what you mean by the Robin Hood vibe.....nor the Tom and Jerry analogy. Can you explain that a bit more?
Confused

Take the keyboard interlude from around 3:10.  Now I can't tell you where exactly in the T&J kids universe I heard that but it did remind me of it.  Mind, Tom & Jerry Kids, NOT the original T&J series which featured more orchestral background music.  At any rate, very cartoon music-like.  They have plenty of such moments in many of their songs.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2013 at 20:02
Originally posted by Genital Giant Genital Giant wrote:

Originally posted by Prog_Traveller Prog_Traveller wrote:

Hey I'd like to know what early King Crimson album is easy to get into? Smile I'd say Free Hand and Octopus are easier to get into than Lizard or Islands. 


Their first album, In The Court Of The Crimson King, is the most accessible album they ever did. It also happens to be their best album, even though I like the 70's line-up better.

I agree.
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For darkness turns once more to light.
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