Quo Vadis Ukraine?

Oh boy, not this thread again...

seriously, I must fight for your sympathy, o almighty western master? I don't think I crave sympathy from anyone believing in uS cOuP oN mAiDaN broski

Bandera is a war criminal and a nazi, but guess what? While yes, Ukrainians had hundreds fighting on the side of nazis, Russians had THOUSANDS - again, simple googling might help. If you dOnT tRuSt WiKiPeDiA you can find the info elsewhere - being interested in finding it instead of tooting your own horn helps, you know

Of course russian propaganda works really hard to tell the world about Bandera and hide the information about their own nazi collaborators, because throwing YOU'RE A NAZI at anyone works like a charm. But c'mon, the Soviets made a PACT with nazis themselves and entered Poland TOGETHER and somehow they're goodie-goodie???

The problem with the term NAZI is that the old word helps trivialize and downplay the actual war crimes that are commited by the russians RIGHT NOW.Each time I see it in the context of the current invasion I know it's a smoke screen used by the pro-russian crowd. They make you think of the stuff happening 80 years ago, while actual real living russians rape Ukrainian women and children, kill Ukrainian soldiers and drop bombs on Ukrainian cities - RIGHT.NOW.

I get it, you can't fight the facts. Some more of those:

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Crimea declared independency

late February 2014: russian soldiers enter Crimea, kill/kidnap some officials and military, annex the territory
mid-March 2014: Crimean referendum - surprisingly!!!!! - declares that Crimea wants to be in russia, so unexpected! Just the way Putin wins every election in russia every time, what a coincidence...

MikeEnRegalia wrote: a pro-western regime was installed in the Ukraine in February 2014

lol literally nobody was ruling Ukraine at that time - everybody were actually surprised to see Yanukovitch flee and Ukraine was actually presidentless until May 2014. But hey, by saying "was installed" it's obvious you're not taking us seriously as a country, we're just some savage colony to an all-knowing all-understanding westerner, aren't we

Also don't get me started on Merkel, she's basically a russian asset

omphaloskepsis wrote: The Ukraine Summer Offensive is a massive failure

you mean russia losing half of their Black Sea fleet and Ukraine getting back to grain transfers is somehow a failure?

omphaloskepsis wrote: Russia doesn't want nukes a few hundred miles from Moscow. Russia won't stop until they eliminate that threat.

...but now they'll have them even closer because Finland is in NATO I don't see them even trying to eLiMiNaTe this threat.

omphaloskepsis wrote: Autumn 2022 vote referendums. According to Russian law, Putin has no choice but to defend the four Oblasts to the end

thankfully russian law doesn't work in normal countries, so Putin didn't even flinch losing Kherson. Same will happen when he'll eventually lose all other occupied territories - blah blah tactical retreat, we heard this lie before. He just won't admit AFU kicked his sorry ass.

omphaloskepsis wrote: Russia will not stop until they accomplish the goals they set out to accomplish

Or they'll leave with their tails between their legs like they did before and then they'll come up with another bullcrap a-la "tactical retreat" so everyone would laugh at them again.

Speaking of achieving goals, this is what russia's military chief says himself

omphaloskepsis wrote: 1. Free the Donbass

you mean raize it to the ground? Because that's what they're doing

omphaloskepsis wrote: 2. Demillartarize Ukraine (Destroy Ukraine's military)

hah good luck with that

omphaloskepsis wrote: 3. Denatzify Ukraine

a good article on why this is absolute bull

omphaloskepsis wrote: 4. Stop Ukraine from ever joining NATO

irrelevant since they already have NATO (Finland) right beside them and do NOTHING about it. It was never about NATO

omphaloskepsis wrote: I estimate that there is a 90% chance that Russia will accomplish 3/4's of its goals

*copium intensifies*
somehow they hadn't achieve ANY in almost two years/TEN if we start counting from Donbass invasion+Crimea annexation

Russia needs to purge their own nazi and white supremacist groups, for example:
Russian Atomwaffen
Russian Imperial Movement
Russian National Unity
Slavic Union
OB88
Russkii Obraz
BORN
The Base
And of course that group known for their destruction, raping and killing in Africa: The Wagner Group

moshkito wrote: In other words, there is no great evaluation of the whole thing, and in the end, this helps the russians, who will overtake it all sooner or later, (I certainly hope not!!!), and when this happens, the rest of Europe will wake up ... the three little countries (or as a Russian lawmaker once said ... the three little piggies ... will all disappear from the map and we will see , then , what is next ... another leader that we allowed to do what he wanted ... similar to one some 90 years ago that slowly worked his way up!

Lewian wrote: This is a central point. One can discuss night and day what NATO's and "the West's" and even the Ukrainians historical contribution to all this is, but at the end of the day there is an expansionist warmonger dictator (I know he is elected, but...) who has made pretty clear that even the whole Ukraine wouldn't be enough for him

Prog-jester wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: John Mearsheimer oof I googled the guy - he wrote an article called "Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault" in 2015, which means he never considered Ukraine to be an independent player from the very beginning. This point of view helps the russian propaganda a lot, I can't support it obviously. Also all these theoretical and philosophical westplaining discussions about actual war (where hundreds die every day) remind of this picture:

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 10 2023 at 08:22

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Lewian wrote: These territories are officially part of Russia, as the Russian parliament (the Duma) have decided. So you're basically saying that the Duma has the right to decide this and you accept their official authority? What if they decide Sweden is Russian? I should have made it more clear that I was talking about how Russia sees it. Since they made these territories part of their country, it is really unlikely that they would give them back. As demonstrated with Crimea, they will keep them indefinitely. And once again you have read into me stating facts that I approve of them, which I do not. I hope that at some point in the future you will be able to separate facts from how you want things to be.