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Chris S

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Posted: March 02 2009 at 00:09

Very debateable discussion.....either way I am sure He/She/It would be flattered because us humans, as sure as eggs is eggs, think more about God than God thinks of us

What I believe is that every single individual choice of belief/unbelief is to be truly respected.

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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: March 02 2009 at 00:17

James wrote:

No, Iván.

I'm a strong atheist (not that I like to use the term, as I mentioned earlier). I do not preach this. I know God (not just in the traditional sense) does not exist.

How do you know?

Do you have any evidence?

Is it your belief?

Then if you believe in something with no evidence at all, it's an act of faith that can be equated tto a religious disbelief.

Despite the fact, many atheists preach:

American Atheists is not afraid to point out that which is true: religion is ridiculous. Mythology and religion are synonymous, and none is better than another. Religion is malicious, malevolent, and unworthy of respect http://www.atheists.org/religion (This is a creed, and a very offensive, arrogant one, they ask for respect, but they say religion is not worth respect.)
Grown a network of volunteers who perform a variety of important tasks in their community, from placing American Atheist books in libraries to writing letters and publicizing the Atheist perspective. http://www.atheists.org/about (This is atheist evangelism)
Why do some atheists care so much about atheism?

Many atheists do not consider their lack of belief in god(s) any more important than their lack of belief in Invisible Pink Unicorns (IPUs). However, many other atheists are passionate and vocal about their atheism. They may feel strongly about their atheism for any number of reasons:
- They think atheism is true
- They find it interesting
- They want to protect the rights of fellow atheists
- They recently de-converted and it fills a void previously filled by religion
- They want to find good answers to questions about atheism
- They have been approached repeatedly by religionists who want to convert them
- They are concerned about attempts by religionists to write their beliefs and practices into law, and want to stop them
- They want others to experience the benefits of atheism http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/society.html (This is no different than commandments and an obligation to evangelize)

So, you get my `poinnt, this is almost like an organized religion

I do not need any facts (not that any exist) of his existence or non-existence.

Then you're basing it in your subjective belief, in other words FAITH

There maybe others who think the same way as me but that's neither here nor their. I do not converse with these people and neither do I convert others over.

Having a religious believe dioesn't imply you will turn into an evangelist.

And it's not denial either. I do not need evidence.

Just as the religious person doesn't need religion, only fraith.

Having said that, I do not like to label myself.

You are the one who started your post saying (and I quote) "I'm a strong atheist"

Ergo, you are labeling yourself exactly as I do when I say I'm a Roman Catholic, and to be honest, with the same faith and pride in your belief.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 02 2009 at 00:29

stonebeard View Drop Down

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Posted: March 02 2009 at 00:26

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

James wrote:

No, Iván.

I'm a strong atheist (not that I like to use the term, as I mentioned earlier). I do not preach this. I know God (not just in the traditional sense) does not exist.

How do you know?

Do you have any evidence?

Is it your belief?

Then if you believe in something with no evidence at all, it's an act of faith that can be equated tto a religious disbelief.

Despite the fact, many atheists preach:

American Atheists is not afraid to point out that which is true: religion is ridiculous. Mythology and religion are synonymous, and none is better than another. Religion is malicious, malevolent, and unworthy of respect http://www.atheists.org/religion (This is a creed, and a very offensive, arrogant one, the ask for respect, but they say religion is not worth respect.)
Grown a network of volunteers who perform a variety of important tasks in their community, from placing American Atheist books in libraries to writing letters and publicizing the Atheist perspective. http://www.atheists.org/about (This is atheist evangelism)
Why do some atheists care so much about atheism?

Many atheists do not consider their lack of belief in god(s) any more important than their lack of belief in Invisible Pink Unicorns (IPUs). However, many other atheists are passionate and vocal about their atheism. They may feel strongly about their atheism for any number of reasons:
- They think atheism is true
- They find it interesting
- They want to protect the rights of fellow atheists
- They recently de-converted and it fills a void previously filled by religion
- They want to find good answers to questions about atheism
- They have been approached repeatedly by religionists who want to convert them
- They are concerned about attempts by religionists to write their beliefs and practices into law, and want to stop them
- They want others to experience the benefits of atheism http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/society.html (This is no different than commandments and an obligation to evangelize)

So, you get my `poinnt, this is almost like an organized religion

I do not need any facts (not that any exist) of his existence or non-existence.

Having a religious believe dioesn't imply you will turn into an evangelist.

And it's not denial either. I do not need evidence.

Just as the religious person doesn't need religion, only fraith.

Having said that, I do not like to label myself.

You are the one who started your post saying (and I quote) "I'm a strong atheist"

Ergo, you are labeling yourself exactly as I do when I say I'm a Roman Catholic, and to be honest, with the same faith and pride in your belief.

Iván

It must be stated, though, that atheism itself is not a religion, or a faith (though I suppose that's debatable, if you really care enough to argue over the meaning of the word). It is indeed an outlook. When you organize anything, it can become dogmatic.

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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: March 02 2009 at 00:36

stonebeard wrote:

It must be stated, though, that atheism itself is not a religion, or a faith (though I suppose that's debatable, if you really care enough to argue over the meaning of the word). It is indeed an outlook. When you organize anything, it can become dogmatic.

You can believe in things because of evidence or faith, thers' no other option.
If you dopn't have evidence, it's faith
1. FAITH: Firm belief in something for which there is no proof (Merriam Webster)
There's no evidence that God doesn't exist.
Atheists have a firm belief that God doesn't exist beyond any prove.
Atheism is a faith.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 02 2009 at 00:36

cobb2

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Posted: March 02 2009 at 00:47

Believe what you want- but we, like all other species on this planet, are here for one purpose only: to propogate the species. I think we are doing a rather good job of it too.

If you must believe in some form of higher power, worship the sun- it is the only reason life is here.

If not- take the advice on the bus ad.

mystic fred View Drop Down

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Posted: March 02 2009 at 00:54

to clarify the meaning of the term Agnostic, i always believed it meant somebody who acknowledged the existence of God but did not recognise any organised religion..

an Atheist does not believe in Religion and denies the existence of any God, though I believe everyone has inborn spiritual belief - some have embraced it and some have fortunately not been forced to admit it.

Though Science and Money are the new Gods, if you are a believer or not, deep down in our primeval conciousness God exists, and is brought to the surface in times of dire need or death.

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stonebeard View Drop Down

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Posted: March 02 2009 at 00:57

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

You can believe in things because of evidence or faith, thers' no other option.
If you dopn't have evidence, it's faith
1. FAITH: Firm belief in something for which there is no proof (Merriam Webster)
There's no evidence that God doesn't exist.
Atheists have a firm belief that God doesn't exist beyond any prove.
Atheism is a faith.

Iván

There are arguments that make the existence of a God troublesome, but no real hard evidence, true.

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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: March 02 2009 at 00:58

cobb2 wrote:

Believe what you want- but we, like all other species on this planet, are here for one purpose only: to propogate the species. I think we are doing a rather good job of it too.

Says who?

Which is your evidence that propagating is the ultimate goal?

You are entitled to your disbelief, but that doesn't mean it's a fact.

The funny thing is that being a Catholic (accused of e4vangelism), I haven't asked anybody to believe otr nnot in anything (something I never do), while many of the atheists are trying to make us believe their disbelief is a fact.

If you must believe in some form of higher power, worship the sun- it is the only reason life is here.

Some of us have passed the stage of worship of natural forces, faith goes beyond that.

Can you prove bneyond any doubt that the sun is here because Gid's plan?

If not- take the advice on the bus ad.

Are you doing evangelism?

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 02 2009 at 01:03

BaldFriede View Drop Down

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Posted: March 02 2009 at 04:50

stonebeard wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

You can believe in things because of evidence or faith, thers' no other option.
If you dopn't have evidence, it's faith
1. FAITH: Firm belief in something for which there is no proof (Merriam Webster)
There's no evidence that God doesn't exist.
Atheists have a firm belief that God doesn't exist beyond any prove.
Atheism is a faith.

Iván

There are arguments that make the existence of a God troublesome, but no real hard evidence, true.

I could and did present you arguments that make a non-existence of God troublesome. Once again: Those arguments you speak of are arguments against a certain image of God. God definitely is not the old man with the beard; no-one agrees to that more heartily than I. And he is not the wand-waver, the interferer either. God does not interfere at all; in fact what a little God that would be if he had to interfere. Therefore asking for proof by having him appear in front of you in his "real form" is doubly absurd, first because the real form is always there, and second because you would reduce him to nothing but a conjuror.

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stonebeard View Drop Down

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Posted: March 02 2009 at 11:25

BaldFriede wrote:

stonebeard wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

You can believe in things because of evidence or faith, thers' no other option.
If you dopn't have evidence, it's faith
1. FAITH: Firm belief in something for which there is no proof (Merriam Webster)
There's no evidence that God doesn't exist.
Atheists have a firm belief that God doesn't exist beyond any prove.
Atheism is a faith.

Iván

There are arguments that make the existence of a God troublesome, but no real hard evidence, true.

Just for clarification then, any time I speak of "God" without any qualifier, it is of the typical, monotheistic God.

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The Quiet One View Drop Down

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Posted: March 02 2009 at 12:13

mystic fred wrote:

to clarify the meaning of the term Agnostic, i always believed it meant somebody who acknowledged the existence of God but did not recognise any organised religion..

Though Science and Money are the new Gods, if you are a believer or not, deep down in our primeval conciousness God exists, and is brought to the surface in times of dire need or death.

Thanks for that!

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: March 02 2009 at 12:41

mystic fred wrote:

to clarify the meaning of the term Agnostic, i always believed it meant somebody who acknowledged the existence of God but did not recognise any organised religion..

Not accurate mYSTIC fRED:

Dictionary definitions of "Agnostic:"

Houghton Mifflin: "One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism." ₈
Columbia encyclopedia: "[A belief] that the existence of God cannot be logically proved or disproved. Agnosticism is not to be confused with atheism which asserts that there is no God." ₉
Wikipedia: ['A belief] that the (truth) values of certain claims -- particularly theological claims regarding the existence of God, gods, or deities -- are unknown, inherently unknowable, or incoherent, and therefore, irrelevant to life." ₁₀
Merriam-Webster: "A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god." ₁₃
Die.net: "One who professes ignorance, or denies that we have any knowledge, save of phenomena; one who supports agnosticism, neither affirming nor denying the existence of a personal Deity, a future life, etc."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm

A person who believes in God but not in religions is THEIST.

Iván

The Quiet One View Drop Down

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Posted: March 02 2009 at 12:43

Wow! I'm changing name of "religion" each time I read a new post

BaldFriede View Drop Down

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Posted: March 02 2009 at 14:00

James wrote:

No, Iván.

I'm a strong atheist (not that I like to use the term, as I mentioned earlier). I do not preach this. I know God (not just in the traditional sense) does not exist. I do not need any facts (not that any exist) of his existence or non-existence.

There maybe others who think the same way as me but that's neither here nor their. I do not converse with these people and neither do I convert others over.

And it's not denial either. I do not need evidence.

Having said that, I do not like to label myself.

No-one knows that God does not exist, it is at best a belief. Anyway, I am very certain that what atheists do reject is a certain image of God only and not God him/herself. This image, however, is widely spread, and mostly comes to people's mind when "God" is mentioned. As Raymond Smullyan has God say in his essay "Is God a Taoist?", which is written in the form of a dialogue between God and a mortal,:
"What I am saying is that one who knows me for what I really am would simply find it psychologically impossible to hate me.",
only I would replace "hate me" with "not believe in me".
And indeed I do not see how anyone can reject the cosmic process. The open and perhaps most interesting point though is: Does this cosmic process have a consciousness. Now before anybody goes and says "Nonsense, how can a mere process have consciousness?", think twice. Where does your own consciousness come from? Any answers to that? How do you conclude other people are conscious? And no, the consciousness is NOT located in your brain somewhere; that much at least is clear meanwhile after decades of brain research. So where does it come from? The answer is, I think, obvious: It is the process which is going on in your brain. As soon as that process stops, your consciousness will stop. It drops to lower levels during your sleep, though you are not completely unconscious then, even if the word "unconscious" is used for that state; any alarm-clock is proof of that.
You may find it weird that your consciousness is "nothing but a mere process", but that phrase is very deluding in itself. First of all, that process is very complex. Second, it is highly self-referential and self-regulating. My belief in God can be "reduced" to the following: I believe that any process of sufficient complexity, self-reference and self-regulation does have a consciousness. There is a kind of "critical mass" (take this word with a grain of salt, please), which, once a process has reached it, gives it a consciousness. And the cosmic process, being THE process of all, which includes all other processes as sub-processes which in myriads of ways interact with it and with each other, certainly has that critical mass, if we mere humans already have a consciousness. And it is this consciousness which I call "God".
You may say that this is the oddest form of belief in God you have ever heard of, and perhaps it is. But both Jean and I adhere to it; it is a central part of our religion.
Of course there is an element of belief in it; I do not deny that at all. But it does in our opinion make a lot of sense. If you can come up with a better explanation for your own consciousness than the one I have given here, feel free to tell about it. But I firmly do believe that once the postulate of a process developing consciousness when a certain amount of self-reference and self-regulation is involved is accepted, it is inevitable to believe in God. And as long as no-one comes up with a better hypothesis about where our consciousness comes from I am perfectly fine with mine.

Edited by BaldFriede - March 03 2009 at 04:42

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VanderGraafKommandöh View Drop Down

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Posted: March 03 2009 at 12:54

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

James wrote:

No, Iván.

I'm a strong atheist (not that I like to use the term, as I mentioned earlier). I do not preach this. I know God (not just in the traditional sense) does not exist.

How do you know?

Do you have any evidence?

Is it your belief?

I do not need evidence. I know. The same way you do not have evidence he does exist. The only reason I think of there not being a God is because the idea of there being a God is posited so often. If I had a sheltered upbringing, I would not even have a concept of God in the first place.

Then if you believe in something with no evidence at all, it's an act of faith that can be equated tto a religious disbelief.

It's not a faith. I do not worry about there not being a God. It really does not bother me.

I know wyou don't preach as an individual, but I'm not talking of evangelism, i believe in God and I don't preach either, religious belief bassed in faith without evidence is something preaching is a personal call that believers and non believers can have

But you do follow a religion. I do not read non-believers texts. I don't really even think about there not being a God. I just know he doesn't exist.

Despite the fact, many atheists preach:

American Atheists is not afraid to point out that which is true: religion is ridiculous. Mythology and religion are synonymous, and none is better than another. Religion is malicious, malevolent, and unworthy of respect http://www.atheists.org/religion (This is a creed, and a very offensive, arrogant one, they ask for respect, but they say religion is not worth respect.)
Grown a network of volunteers who perform a variety of important tasks in their community, from placing American Atheist books in libraries to writing letters and publicizing the Atheist perspective. http://www.atheists.org/about (This is atheist evangelism)
Why do some atheists care so much about atheism?

Many atheists do not consider their lack of belief in god(s) any more important than their lack of belief in Invisible Pink Unicorns (IPUs). However, many other atheists are passionate and vocal about their atheism. They may feel strongly about their atheism for any number of reasons:
- They think atheism is true
- They find it interesting
- They want to protect the rights of fellow atheists
- They recently de-converted and it fills a void previously filled by religion
- They want to find good answers to questions about atheism
- They have been approached repeatedly by religionists who want to convert them
- They are concerned about attempts by religionists to write their beliefs and practices into law, and want to stop them
- They want others to experience the benefits of atheism http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/society.html (This is no different than commandments and an obligation to evangelize)

So, you get my `poinnt, this is almost like an organized religion

Yes but I do not like those type of Atheists and that is precisely why I do not like to label myself as one. They are an embarrassment in my opinion.

I do not need any facts (not that any exist) of his existence or non-existence.

Then you're basing it in your subjective belief, in other words FAITH

As I said above, I do not really think about there not being a God. If people did not mention God all the time, I would be none the wiser.

There maybe others who think the same way as me but that's neither here nor their. I do not converse with these people and neither do I convert others over.

Having a religious believe dioesn't imply you will turn into an evangelist.

I agree.

And it's not denial either. I do not need evidence.

Just as the religious person doesn't need religion, only fraith.

I agree. Yet Buddhism is not really a religion but more like a philosophy. It is a faith though.

Having said that, I do not like to label myself.

You are the one who started your post saying (and I quote) "I'm a strong atheist"

I do not like to label myself. I labelled myself as such to show that I am a non-believer. Yes, I have thought about the non-existence of God before and there is no way I can believe in the existence of a God (in any way, not just the traditional one).

Ergo, you are labeling yourself exactly as I do when I say I'm a Roman Catholic, and to be honest, with the same faith and pride in your belief.

Iván

Not at all. See my answers above.

stonebeard View Drop Down

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Posted: March 03 2009 at 13:15

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

James wrote:

How do you know?

Do you have any evidence?

James, believing or not believing something without evidence requires some amount of faith, especially if you hold the conviction that it is true. Just because the thing in question is God makes no difference.

What is particularly troublesome about your response is:

"I do not need evidence. I know. The same way you do not have evidence he does exist."

You may think you know, but this is not reliable knowledge in any sort of way. You really need to stop using the word "know." I have never seen any circumstance where ayone is qualified to make a statement of knowing God's existence, and this is no exception.

About as much as humans can do is provide arguments for the existence of God, to varying effectiveness. There is evidence too for both sides, but it is of a questionable nature (EX: evil exists, therefore God is cruel, therefore the God of the monotheistic religions cannot exist). The "evidence" in this case is evil. I might even posit that there is no discussion whatsoever of multitudes of scientific data in the Bible (which is itself a very unscientific thing), and this data could be evidence for casting doubt on the existence of the Abrahamic God as presented in the monotheisms.

Take up arms agaisnt the argument, of course, (it's not like I planned these examples out meticulously anyways), but you do need an account/justification for knowledge, and without evidence or at least some semblance of argument, you have no knowledge.

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VanderGraafKommandöh View Drop Down

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Posted: March 03 2009 at 14:03

Why do I need Knowledge and Evidence?

I don't.

I don't need to be proved either way.