The Atheist - Agnostic - Non religious thread

Mr ProgFreak wrote:   If you see it as simple as that, then have it your way. Did you see my post regarding the celestial teapot?

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 12 2009 at 20:38

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: By the contrary, the idea of God is present in the vast majority of humans. Some of them see God in a different way, but all have the perception in God. For example, Jewish, Moslem and Christians are often placed as contradictory, but all believe in the same God of Abraham, it's a strong coincidence despitethe differences. Even some Hindu texts talk about Jesus, and there's a group of Messianic Jewish who believe in Christ.  Iván

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote:   If you see it as simple as that, then have it your way. Did you see my post regarding the celestial teapot? Mike, the Celestial Teapot is not a system of beliefs, not even something argued as truth by anybody, it's only an argument obviously absurd created to discredit the belief in God, There's no scientist or system of beliefs that believes in this atrocity, there are no  Gospels or even oral tradition that mentions it...So there's no need to believe or have faith in it. On the contrary, there are issues that can be proved wrong. "Humans need oxygen, so no human being can survive in the vacuum, this can be proved beyond any doubt, you can test all the humans if you want, and all will die, so you can prove this is false. With simpler examples, it's easier.

I'm sorry to see that it seems to be impossible for you to apply logic in this case. I've seen you apply logic before, and that makes me sad ... well, maybe some day you'll see the obvious flaws in your logic.

Iván wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote:  Some things can't be proven, but a certain probability can be assumed. You can collect hints and clues that make a proposition more or less likely to be true. So when something can neither be proved nor disproved, it doesn't automatically follow that there's an equal chance for it to be true or false.  It depends in your perception of evidence Mike.

Well, I have a realistic perception of it, and I see that you don't.

Iván wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: And especially for the Christian God there's the problem with the Bible and its inconsistencies. For example, take the Second Coming of Christ. AFAIK Jesus said that it would happen in the lifetime of his contemporaries (apostles) ... we're still waiting for it to happen. It's many little nuggets like this which - for me - shift the probability for God's existence near zero percent.  This point is not at all clear, the Bible must not be taken literally, specially in time issues: : "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come." (NIV, Mark 13:32-33) So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. (NIV, Matthew 24:43-44) Nobody knows.

"Nobody knows" ... that's very true. Yet around the world, at this very moment, there may be hundreds of thousands of people who take prophecies like that literally, and change their lives accordingly, *as if* they knew that it was true.

Iván wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: Another point is that there are many competing religions on this planet, and most of them claim that their solution is the only valid one. But they can't be all true. These consistencies make much more sense when you assume that God is a delusion, a false belief without any basis in reality, than when you assume that all those people are right and the Atheists are wrong. Aren't you the slightest bit worried about all these discrepancies? By the contrary, the idea of God is present in the vast majority of humans. Some of them see God in a different way, but all have the perception in God. For example, Jewish, Moslem and Christians are often placed as contradictory, but all believe in the same God of Abraham, it's a strong coincidence despitethe differences. Even some Hindu texts talk about Jesus, and there's a group of Messianic Jewish who believe in Christ.  I of course believe the Catholic God is the true one, but also believe every God image in human minds  is a reflex of the divinity, but humans  understood the message in different ways, so they see God from a different perspective. I see no contradiction, that's why I show the same respect for a Church, a Synagogue and a Mosque, because I believe all are tributes to God, no matter our differences. Iván

In Irak there's even Muslims blowing up other Muslims, and in Northern Ireland there's Protestants killing Catholics and the other way round.

This violence comes from the fact that all these religions you named demand in some way or another that its followers interact with God in a special way. That may involve praying, mutilating their children, not collect wood at a certain day of the week, fasting etc.. Anyone who doesn't follow the specific procedures - which are, in most cases, defined in scripture - is a potential threat to the religion, because in the minds of the believers this behavior doesn't please their God. Of course many believers are peaceful and tolerant, but the fundamentalist fanatics aren't. That's why I agree with Christopher Hitchens when he says that "religion poisons everything". Most of us appreciate religion because of its morality and sense of community ... but we could have that directly, without the poisonous side effects of religion.

el dingo wrote: Dean wrote: CPicard wrote: Why don't you have a pagan/Wiccan thread? There just aren't enough Wiccan's who believe in Prog. Go to Alt.Gothic or uk.people.gothic and you can't move for them.     I know a Wiccan couple quite well and musically there's not a trace of goth about them - it's all Blackmore's Knight, Steeleye Span and a bit of Gong thrown in for pot luck. They run a Magick Shop in Norwich where they sell most of their charms amulets and other assorted jewellery to... teenage Goths

Unfortunately this sort of superstition is on the rise ... TV series like Charmed, Buffy or Ghost Whisperer are no help either.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: Dean wrote: Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: By the contrary, the idea of God is present in the vast majority of humans. Some of them see God in a different way, but all have the perception in God. For example, Jewish, Moslem and Christians are often placed as contradictory, but all believe in the same God of Abraham, it's a strong coincidence despitethe differences. Even some Hindu texts talk about Jesus, and there's a group of Messianic Jewish who believe in Christ.  Iván It is nothing to do with coincidence and all to do with geography - if all four of those religions had developed in issolation on seperate continents that would be conincidence so strong that even the most furvent athiest would have difficulty explaining it. If in 1482 Columbus had discovered the Native Americans wearing crucifixes, Captain Cook had found Australian Abouriginies quoting Genesis, had Cortes discovered Moctezuma reading the Qur'an and if a bust of Vishnu had been discovered at Machu Picchu - then that would be an amazingly strong coincidence (even if only one of those had occured it would be pretty spectacular). But they didn't. All four of those religions developed in a relatively small region of the Middle East - that is not a coincidence - it isn't even a surprise.   A really nice presentation about the (possible) origins or religious belief. And btw, as always when I'm posting videos and which I thought was too obvious to mention explicitly:  is watching the video is not mandatory.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^ why should religion be more qualified than science to answer the "why"? BTW: The Big Bang (which actually has been shown not to have been the beginning of the universe, as explained for example in the Lawrence Krauss presentations) is a bit of a far cry from the origins or religions ...

Mr ProgFreak wrote: TV series like Charmed, Buffy or Ghost Whisperer are no help either.

Buffy was created by Joss Whedon, a well-known atheist and humanist.

Also, it's awesome.

You know the great philosopher Sammy Hagar was a fan of some your position.

Murky Murky Murkie Muskie, toothed fish, bony fish, carp, camp, mean kids, smelly water, bong water, boring sweat......