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Slartibartfast 
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Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
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Points: 29630
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 Posted: April 22 2008 at 06:35 |
 Squonkman wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
'scuse me, but when I saw this thread's title I couldn't stop laughing.... |
Why? |
Because American Idol should be subtitled: American Idol, The Dumbing Down Of Music.
Squonkman wrote:
Is it any wonder that progressive rock is now an
"underground" movement
hasn't prog always been such more or less?
Yep, someone did a
Kansas tune on American Idol (Carry on Wayward Son). I'd have actually watched that. Could we be witnessing the smartening up of the show? Well Carry On was an AOR hit, someone doing Dust In The Wind, also a Kansas AOR hit would be more remarkable.
What's next, Paula
Abdul singing In the Court of the Crimson King? That would be a weird spectacle, I'd watch that, too. Yeah, I'm a sick twisted b*****d. 
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Edited by Slartibartfast - April 22 2008 at 06:43
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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johnobvious
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Joined: May 11 2006
Location: Nebraska
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Points: 1367
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 09:16 |
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Trying to rid the world of American Idol is like fighting with your wife. Even if you know you are right, you are not going to win. In my younger days, I might have wanted to fight the good fight but it just isn't worth it to me to worry about something I can't change. This is a good discussion but I'll just focus on things that make me happy instead of stressing out about the crap that they are spewing at people.
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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday
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Jimbo
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Joined: February 28 2005
Location: Helsinki
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 11:21 |
Atavachron wrote:
lighten up, there's art and there's business and occasionally the two meet.. I mean, is it really surprising that complex and experimental music doesn't appeal to large numbers? ..BTW, you can be a tasteful, cultured person and absolutely love a show like American Idol.. it doesn't define you
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  I like to watch american idol (it's not something I would ever want to
hear on cd), I like some rap music, I like Univers Zero. So what? I enjoy listening to good vocalists, even if the songs they pick aren't exactly my cup of tea. It's as simple as that. Are all of you so intellectually stiff that you can't enjoy anything that is below your undoubtedly superior standards? Besides, I fail to see the relevance of american idol in progressive rock. It's highly unlikely that the 12-year old girl who listens to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Frank Zappa or Soft Machine. 
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The T
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 14:09 |
Jimbo wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
lighten up, there's art and there's business and occasionally the two meet.. I mean, is it really surprising that complex and experimental music doesn't appeal to large numbers? ..BTW, you can be a tasteful, cultured person and absolutely love a show like American Idol.. it doesn't define you
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I like to watch american idol (it's not something I would ever want to hear on cd), I like some rap music, I like Univers Zero. So what? I enjoy listening to good vocalists, even if the songs they pick aren't exactly my cup of tea. It's as simple as that.
Are all of you so intellectually stiff that you can't enjoy anything that is below your undoubtedly superior standards?
Besides, I fail to see the relevance of american idol in progressive rock. It's highly unlikely that the 12-year old girl who listens to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Frank Zappa or Soft Machine.
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American Idol is a TV PROGRAM. Enjoy it or hate it for what it is.
There's a magnificent device that you can use to express your dissapointment:
And then go and buy all the prog you can and then attend all prog concerts that you can.... And convince as many children as you can to go listen to Van der Graff Generator.
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The T
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 14:28 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I do believe American Idol, yes T also the USA version, they bombard us every deay with that through the cable, don’t talk about Latin American Idol because it’s even worst.
At least in the USA version, Randy Jackson knows something about music (Well, he played with Aretha, Journey and Jean Luc Ponty) and Cowell’s comments are pretty accurate, here the woman chosen flirts with artists and nobody knows a damn sh!t about music. I'm sure about that. I've seen the mexican version and it's really.... well... disgusting.
The problem is that they are seeding wrong values in the youth, let me start: Tv has never been the place to find the values our children should have, has it? In today's world, at least in America, TV is losing its grip on the youth in favor of THIS, our beloved media, the internet. And that sucks because none of these two should be the value-school for children but their families.
- No matter how bad you are or how ridicule your singing is, go and make a fool on TV: The casting shows are offensive, some guys really can’t sing at all, but they show this guys because it’s fun to see a poor idiot making a clown of himself. The sad thing is that some of them, like an oriental guy who sang something like “Shiboom Shiboom” (Don’t know or care how it’s written), must be the worst singer in known universe, but still he got a show in Vegas…Is this what we want our kids to learn? 1. It's a TV show. Shows where people have been doing ridicule things and being laughed at have existed for ages. That lasts only the first few programs anyway. 2. If we don't want children to learn this, don't let them watch it! It airs at night anyway. Children should be sleeping by 8 pm, I mean REALLY young children like ages 1-10 or 11... 3. He's famous, so what... Another one in a long list of famous people who don't deserve it.
- If you suck, still rant and insult everybody on cameras: There are candidates who can’t sing a all, I’m sure their parents must have told them, or friends or neighbors, but still they cast and when with absolute logic, they are not selected, they insult everybody……That’s how we want our kids to act? 1. It's a TV show... in today's hip-hop and "reality" show world, it's good entertainment (considered to be) to watch regular people curse at celebrities. It's just that. 2. Let's tell our kinds DON'T do that or just use the remote control.
- Doesn’t matter you are not the best, just look great, be popular and you will have the chance: This kids are being harmed, even the ones with good voice, because they will stop improving their artistic skills to look better, maybe some breast implants for girls, dressing at the latest fashion on guys, instead of telling them, “Please pal you have a good voice, but with a couple years of study you will be better”, they give the wrong message “Hey, look good, forget about making your style batter, you are cute so you are a star”…How many of this kids are going to succeed in real world? Probably they will be a fashion for a month and then they are forgotten. 1. Abdul is an idiot who says that kind of things but the other two tell the story a little bit more straight. It's a show so somebody has to make up for the thrashing that Cowell delivers... 2. I don't see how Amewrican Idol suddenly turned into the teacher that all children follow... I mean, maybe a lot will do.. but those who do do so probably because their parents are so incompetent that they left a TV show be the guidance for their children instead of them
- Writing songs is a waste of time, just sing popular tunes and you will be a star: Some of this kids are able to sing they’re own stuff, but they are encourage to be Karaoke artists and sing what others write, in this way the industry will still get some extra millions for new versions of old hits, that’s the point of the show. Do you believe Rock will survive with a culture of Karaoke singers? 1. No. They sing popular songs because that's the only way people will actually watch the show. If everybody sung own songs, the show may be more interesting for music lovers but for the general population I think it would not be and the rating would suffer. But, eventually, many of the contestants get to release albums with own material. At least here in the US. 2. No, rock will not survive that. But the show is not targeted at the rock audience. Rock here in America is shrinking because of hip hop and other factors, not American Idol.
- Some of this kids are ruining their lives: Lets be honest, some of this kids sound intelligent enough to study a career instead of wasting their time, but Mrs. Paula Abdul lies to them telling that they are already stars, if one real star appears each year, it’s too much, don’t lie to the kids, tell them the truth…”Hey, you will never do a living on this, better study a career”. But the 24 finalist already believe they are stars and waste their klifes. 1. You always work with evidence Ivan. Where's the evidence of the long list of Idol contestants who got their lives ruined? It's just an assumption. One I can't agree with because it would be known by now. Here in this country the stupid gossip magazines and shows would be on the case just for ratings. Also, many probably love music as their biggest passion and really don't want to become, say, lawyers or doctors, so the Idol experience was just another shot at living their music dream...
There are more arguments against this silly program, Don't watch it. I believe it’s harmful for music, but worst for the contestant and teen audience, probably the son or daughter of one of you is already believing “Why should I study, if I’m good looking and can sing a bit?”. No... they will succeed only if they don't suck. There's lack of evidence about this. Psychologists haven't touched the subject and social analysts haven't also. Or maybe. Let's dig for some evidence and we can all agree on this. Now tell them they are wrong and you will be the bad father/mother who doesn’t support them, while Simon Cowell makes another US$ 10’000,000 per year (maybe 10 times that) on the disgrace of many young people. He makes that money (much more I think) on the 30 million people that tune every week... the disgrace of young people... leave that in hands of the young people... and their parents.
Iván Teo |
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Squonkman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 0
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 14:53 |
prog-chick wrote:
Is A.Idol dumbing down music for the kids??? ............ Hell no!
different taste in music is not necessarily 'dumb' that is a seriously odd notion to have, yes they might play "festival style arrangements" but thats for a hundred practical and technical reasons..........
no, its dumbing down to appeal to the lowest common denominator. AI is so popular because every nitwit who has a boob tube watches it. There is no thinking involved, people like to watch train wrecks, and in order to reap in the highest possible audience to sell commercial products, they have to pander to the lowest form of idiocy and bad taste
I watch AI (I don't stay in for it, but you know if it's the right day of the week and I've had a long day I'll watch it ) and I find myself routing for these kids, I really do, I'm the same with X-Factor here in the UK, yes there is some awful songs, and awful arrangements at times, but it's great fun, and to accuse another form of valued musical entertainment as being "dumb" really is frightening!
Rx |
"valued musical entertainment"? valued by who? what value does it have? Other than seeing some decent songs hacked to pieces by talentless wannabes seeking their quick fix 15 minutes of fame instead of working hard the old fashioned way, what "value" does it have?
and why is critiquing AI "frightening"? No, what's frightening is that people watch the slow insurmountable drain of cultural value and standards with the insipid vacuousness of shows like this, combined with moronic hip hop, most of which has rendered true rock and roll now a "niche" genre in today's society, as we witness rich suburban white kids dress, speak and act like they are from the "hood" in a lame attempt to become "black" which they never will, and don't even understand why they will never "get it". That is what's frightening, and every post condoning this slow death of American culture contributes to the vast cultural "entertainment tonight" wasteland.
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Padraic
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Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 15:04 |
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Rocinante is tired. Perhaps he could use a rest and a cool drink of water.
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Squonkman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 0
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 15:07 |
Jimbo wrote:
Besides, I fail to see the relevance of american idol in progressive rock. It's highly unlikely that the 12-year old girl who listens to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Frank Zappa or Soft Machine.
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Another person who simply doesn't get it. No one is saying that a 12 year old girl listening to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Zappa or Soft Machine.
What I AM saying, if you would actual READ carefully, is that the likelihood of that 12 year old who has been bludgeoned over the head with the Disney marketing machine, American Idol idiocy, and dopey nonmusical hip hop and whatever else modern corporate commercialism is trying to foist on the masses will EVER later jam to Zappa and Soft Machine etc is virtually nil, and decreases with every broadcast of that moronicy. Get it? How many future progressive rock fans do you think AI is helping to create? 
It sure would help if people improved their reading comprehension skills instead of just knee jerking the first wise ass response that comes to them.
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Squonkman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 0
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 15:19 |
NaturalScience wrote:
Rocinante is tired. Perhaps he could use a rest and a cool drink of water. |
tilting at windmills is hard work, but someone has to do it........
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darkshade
Collaborator
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Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 10964
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 16:37 |
Squonkman wrote:
How many future progressive rock fans do you think AI is helping to create?
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well, based on this site and my own region, and just by looking around
on myspace and reading articles, progressive music is definitely liked
more by young people than in the last 25-30 years. believe me. also
it's interesting to note how many different kinds of people listen to
Frank Zappa's music. from prog lovers, to jazz critics, to people who
like strange music, to normal music listening people, etc...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 16:39 |
The T wrote:
1. You always work with evidence Ivan. Where's the evidence of the long list of Idol contestants who got their lives ruined? It's just an assumption. One I can't agree with because it would be known by now. Here in this country the stupid gossip magazines and shows would be on the case just for ratings. Also, many probably love music as their biggest passion and really don't want to become, say, lawyers or doctors, so the Idol experience was just another shot at living their music dream...
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I will talk you with numbers:
Each season has 12 finalists, this means 54 STARS (According to the show)
How many oif them have succeded in the world of music?
How many are there searching for a contract?
Please T and thank that I don't mention the 24 finalists
From the winners, only Kelly Clackson and Carrie Underwood have some fame, the rest, never passed the test of time and vanished soon, the clearest cases are Ruben Studdard, who's contract was cancelled last year by J Records due to lack of sells and taylor Hicks who after a hit single, was rurned off by Aruiosta Records.
Fantasia Berrino was lucky and got a contract in Broadway, but lets see how much she lasts.
This guys were supposedly stars, they told them they were stars with a 100% seccure musical career, they lied to them.
Just imagine how many kids leave their studies to pursue American Idol, I would say thousands, and for what? Even if they win, most probably won't make a musical career.
Iván
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Atavachron
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Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
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Points: 65603
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 16:42 |
Squonkman wrote:
Jimbo wrote:
Besides, I fail to see the relevance of american idol in progressive rock. It's highly unlikely that the 12-year old girl who listens to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Frank Zappa or Soft Machine.
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Another person who simply doesn't get it. No one is saying that a 12 year old girl listening to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Zappa or Soft Machine.
What I AM saying, if you would actual READ carefully, is that the likelihood of that 12 year old who has been bludgeoned over the head with the Disney marketing machine, American Idol idiocy, and dopey nonmusical hip hop and whatever else modern corporate commercialism is trying to foist on the masses will EVER later jam to Zappa and Soft Machine etc is virtually nil, and decreases with every broadcast of that moronicy. Get it? How many future progressive rock fans do you think AI is helping to create?
It sure would help if people improved their reading comprehension skills instead of just knee jerking the first wise ass response that comes to them. |
you really should not be posting on a music forum if you're going to conduct yourself like this; you assume people haven't read posts thoroughly instead of the possibility that they simply have equally well-considered thoughts on what you've said.. consider all points of view and show some civility
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darkshade
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Joined: November 19 2005
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Points: 10964
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 16:42 |
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there are no doubt, more people interested in progressive music since the 70s. my hypothesis is that (especially young people) are fed up with boring, repetitive pop-punk/hip-hop/emo/teen-pop/80's and 90's hits, etc... so they explore music that was made before their time and then wonder if that's still being done today (and it is) and who knows... maybe a group of those people with one day push forward for a second age of progressive music (not even just prog)
the upcoming decade should be real good (at least interesting) when it comes to progressive music
so to stay on point, i dont think you have to worry about American Idol, or anyone really, ruining good music. something will happen... bands will come out of the woodwork sooner or later...
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micky
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:29 |
Squonkman wrote:
Jimbo wrote:
Besides, I fail to see the relevance of american idol in progressive rock. It's highly unlikely that the 12-year old girl who listens to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Frank Zappa or Soft Machine.
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Another person who simply doesn't get it. No one is saying that a 12 year old girl listening to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Zappa or Soft Machine.
What I AM saying, if you would actual READ carefully, is that the likelihood of that 12 year old who has been bludgeoned over the head with the Disney marketing machine, American Idol idiocy, and dopey nonmusical hip hop and whatever else modern corporate commercialism is trying to foist on the masses will EVER later jam to Zappa and Soft Machine etc is virtually nil, and decreases with every broadcast of that moronicy. Get it? How many future progressive rock fans do you think AI is helping to create?
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why don't you read this carefully and read this carefully.. I don't think you know that answer any more than anyone... and putting down others opinions or taking such a tone, as if you really have a clue only makes you look like a pompous ass... spoken by one who grew up...as many here did... in the era of corporate rock.. dopey image-laden musically bereft groups .. that we loved completely and totally.  It was fun to listen to. Who the hell are you to say that they won't, wake up and smell the coffee brother.. people's preferences grow, expand, and often change. *another on my scoreboard for hidden posts but someone has to say it*
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Squonkman
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Joined: April 08 2008
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:36 |
...........
Edited by Squonkman - April 22 2008 at 17:48
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Squonkman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2008
Status: Offline
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:41 |
Atavachron wrote:
Squonkman wrote:
Jimbo wrote:
Besides, I fail to see the relevance of american idol in progressive rock. It's highly unlikely that the 12-year old girl who listens to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Frank Zappa or Soft Machine.
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Another person who simply doesn't get it. No one is saying that a 12 year old girl listening to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Zappa or Soft Machine.
What I AM saying, if you would actual READ carefully, is that the likelihood of that 12 year old who has been bludgeoned over the head with the Disney marketing machine, American Idol idiocy, and dopey nonmusical hip hop and whatever else modern corporate commercialism is trying to foist on the masses will EVER later jam to Zappa and Soft Machine etc is virtually nil, and decreases with every broadcast of that moronicy. Get it? How many future progressive rock fans do you think AI is helping to create?
It sure would help if people improved their reading comprehension skills instead of just knee jerking the first wise ass response that comes to them. |
you really should not be posting on a music forum if you're going to conduct yourself like this; you assume people haven't read posts thoroughly instead of the possibility that they simply have equally well-considered thoughts on what you've said.. consider all points of view and show some civility
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the response was either a purposeful misreading of what I said, or the inability to understand what I said, one or the other. It was a wiseguy post (with a confused 'smiley' to boot) that got a wise guy retort in response. Thanks for the lecture, try that on the previous wiseguy.
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Squonkman
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Joined: April 08 2008
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:45 |
micky wrote:
Squonkman wrote:
Jimbo wrote:
Besides, I fail to see the relevance of american idol in progressive rock. It's highly unlikely that the 12-year old girl who listens to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Frank Zappa or Soft Machine.
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Another person who simply doesn't get it. No one is saying that a 12 year old girl listening to Carrie Underwood would otherwise be jamming to Zappa or Soft Machine.
What I AM saying, if you would actual READ carefully, is that the likelihood of that 12 year old who has been bludgeoned over the head with the Disney marketing machine, American Idol idiocy, and dopey nonmusical hip hop and whatever else modern corporate commercialism is trying to foist on the masses will EVER later jam to Zappa and Soft Machine etc is virtually nil, and decreases with every broadcast of that moronicy. Get it? How many future progressive rock fans do you think AI is helping to create?
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why don't you read this carefully and read this carefully.. I don't think you know that answer any more than anyone... and putting down others opinions or taking such a tone, as if you really have a clue only makes you look like a pompous ass...
spoken by one who grew up...as many here did... in the era of corporate rock.. dopey image-laden musically bereft groups .. that we loved completely and totally. It was fun to listen to. Who the hell are you to say that they won't, wake up and smell the coffee brother.. people's preferences grow, expand, and often change.
*another on my scoreboard for hidden posts but someone has to say it*
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see above. I have been around long enough that I can draw from experience, both personal and learned, observation, education and I actually have a clue about what I am talking about.
And by my scoreboard, that 's about the third time you have called me names and flamed me for expressing my opinion.
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Squonkman
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Status: Offline
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:47 |
I am not sure what point you are trying to make.
are you claiming that progressive rock albums of today outsell prog back in the 70s? In other words, take away the sales of the 70s stuff by people who are buying it now, and compare sales of prog groups that have been created in the last 10-15 years and compare it to sales of prog btw 1968-1978. Are you serious?
Edited by Squonkman - April 22 2008 at 17:48
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Wilcey
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:47 |
Squonkman wrote:
"valued musical entertainment"? valued by who? what value does it have? Other than seeing some decent songs hacked to pieces by talentless wannabes seeking their quick fix 15 minutes of fame instead of working hard the old fashioned way, what "value" does it have?
and why is critiquing AI "frightening"? No, what's frightening is that people watch the slow insurmountable drain of cultural value and standards with the insipid vacuousness of shows like this, combined with moronic hip hop, most of which has rendered true rock and roll now a "niche" genre in today's society, as we witness rich suburban white kids dress, speak and act like they are from the "hood" in a lame attempt to become "black" which they never will, and don't even understand why they will never "get it". That is what's frightening, and every post condoning this slow death of American culture contributes to the vast cultural "entertainment tonight" wasteland. |
It's valued by the millions that watch it, by the millions spent on it, and by those who it inspires. Not all these kids are talentless, thats pretty much a harsh sweeping statement.
It's frightening because it says that your opinion / taste is better than others. The culture of USA and UK (and almost everyother nation s changing, it's changing for many many reasons, I don't like the change in our society but t's neat and tidy to put it at the feet of one tv show, the reasons are bigger even than AI .
Some people like vacuous tv at the end of the day, it helps them switch off from their stressful lives. It has no great harm, it's the lack of balance that can be harmful. Like about twice a year I might eat a BK, if I lived on it everyday it would be harmful I'm sure, but now and again is ok. BUT, if I did live on it 24/7 would that be BK's fault???
American Idol is not to blame for the ills of society.
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darkshade
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Posted: April 22 2008 at 17:52 |
Squonkman wrote:
I am not sure what point you are trying to make.
are you claiming that progressive rock albums of today outsell prog back in the 70s? In other words, take away the sales of the 70s stuff by people who are buying it now, and compare sales of prog groups that have been created in the last 10-15 years and compare it to sales of prog btw 1968-1978. Are you serious? |
no. prog today does NOT outsell prog of the 70s. i never referred to sales. all i said is that young people of this time like progressive music more than young people did in the first half of this decade, in the 90's and DEFINITELY in the 80's. and im not necessarily referring to prog rock either. (progressive jazz, electronica, jazz-fusion, world music, etc...) dont forget, too, that a lot of young people download music (legally and illegally) so you cant really compare sales anyway. but by going on myspace (for example) and checking out how many of the younger generation have bands that experiment, fusing jazz and rock and prog rock of the 70's and now, funk, jam bands and noticing what a lot of their influences are, it's easy to see that the younger generation take a liking to more interesting music these days. and it's easy to see why. in the 80's it was almost taboo to like anything interesting if it wasnt mainstream. this mind-set carried into the 90's and a little into the 2000's. but as the generation born in the 80's gets older and realizes that there was a lot of good music coming out before they were born and no one told them about it because the media tried to push it away, they say "hey that music was good! why get rid of it. y'know what, im going to try to bring that mind-set back" and it seems to be going alright so far. within a few more years i see great things happening in progressive music. there are people that are fed up. and it makes sense in this time of things getting f**ked up by REALLY BAD people in power.
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American Idol--the dumbing down of music
