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Topic ClosedLibertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!

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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 15:11
Originally posted by Dudemanguy Dudemanguy wrote:

Oh well then I misunderstood you earlier. I thought you were implying that one of us had said that, not that you actually meant to say it yourself. 

I never said the war was a good thing, but the depression ended with the war. Why? Because almost every country everywhere in the world went around buying things or selling things to kill each other with. It's not that hard to figure out. Your claim directly clashes with almighty wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_depression   



How would that end the depression? You should stop thinking of an economic downturn as numbers on a tally sheet and instead think of something physical like a standard of living. Could you explain to me how nations buying guns reinvigorated. the economy?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 16:05

 

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

How would that end the depression? You should stop thinking of an economic downturn as numbers on a tally sheet and instead think of something physical like a standard of living. Could you explain to me how nations buying guns reinvigorated. the economy?

An economic downturn is exactly that, numbers on a tally sheet. It's a significant drop in production or spending in a country that can be caused by various things. Of course, a fast growing economy is not always a good thing. Mexico and China have some of the largest economies in the world, but both countries suffer massive poverty and income inequality. In the case of WWII, America's industries suddenly started working again to produce guns, ammunition, etc. for the war effort. So suddenly, there were millions of jobs available and people actually had money to buy things with. Obviously, this is a mobilized economy (AKA one built around war) and it is far from ideal or something you actually want. However, the unemployment dramatically dropped and spending dramatically rose causing a great increase in GDP meaning a huge upturn in the economy. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 18:10
Isn't getting involved in a war just as much an act of government as any public works project that FDR proposed? It seems like that might be why you two are disagreeing now.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 18:24
Oh boy!  An opportunity to post my favorite music video, of this past year, again:


Time always wins.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 18:27
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Isn't getting involved in a war just as much an act of government as any public works project that FDR proposed?


I'd say even more so!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 18:30
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


How would that end the depression? You should stop thinking of an economic downturn as numbers on a tally sheet and instead think of something physical like a standard of living. Could you explain to me how nations buying guns reinvigorated. the economy?


I can, I can! People have enormous faith that a government will pay back debts (hence, why the government could borrow money for free earlier this year). When a government takes out that faith and has people start making goods (guns, in this case), there are jobs to be had making the guns, and money from that task goes back into the economy.

Of course, it was probably at least as helpful that the government started employing a massive number of people itself.
Hail Eris!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 18:54
I could see how it jump started the economy. I mean....it put much of the population to workLOL
That's pretty simple.
And as someone said, there ARE of course all the soldier returning home and entering the economy again.

Before you guys get all flippy just stating the fact it DID put people to work, even if most of them were working for the state, in a round about way.

It's not like other governments didn't use war/build up to help their economies. The most glaring example was Nazi Germany...

Just being "that guy" I in no way shape or form advocate starting a massive war to try and end our current financial situation of course.





Edited by JJLehto - December 16 2011 at 18:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 18:59

Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Isn't getting involved in a war just as much an act of government as any public works project that FDR proposed? It seems like that might be why you two are disagreeing now.

Of course, it's certainly not a good thing to go to war to reboot your economy. I never said that, all I said was that war essentially ended the Great Depression. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 19:34
Originally posted by Dudemanguy Dudemanguy wrote:

Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Isn't getting involved in a war just as much an act of government as any public works project that FDR proposed? It seems like that might be why you two are disagreeing now.

Of course, it's certainly not a good thing to go to war to reboot your economy. I never said that, all I said was that war essentially ended the Great Depression. 


Actually it could have been ended sooner but FDR cut back on the stimulus spending.  WWII did reboot the economy in several ways.  1. People on the home front going to work making things that were frequently destroyed in the war so more things had to be made and they got paid for the work. 2. The destruction of workers.  Less workers chasing fewer jobs.  3. GI Bill: guys coming back from war were given a government ticket to upward mobility largely driving the build up of the middle class that made the '50's such a wonderful time economically for some. 


Edited by Slartibartfast - December 16 2011 at 19:35
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 19:48
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Dudemanguy Dudemanguy wrote:

Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Isn't getting involved in a war just as much an act of government as any public works project that FDR proposed? It seems like that might be why you two are disagreeing now.

Of course, it's certainly not a good thing to go to war to reboot your economy. I never said that, all I said was that war essentially ended the Great Depression. 


Actually it could have been ended sooner but FDR cut back on the stimulus spending. 


Oh hell, libertarian sh*t storm coming
*takes cover*


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 19:56
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Dudemanguy Dudemanguy wrote:

Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Isn't getting involved in a war just as much an act of government as any public works project that FDR proposed? It seems like that might be why you two are disagreeing now.

Of course, it's certainly not a good thing to go to war to reboot your economy. I never said that, all I said was that war essentially ended the Great Depression. 


Actually it could have been ended sooner but FDR cut back on the stimulus spending. 


Oh hell, libertarian sh*t storm coming
*takes cover*



I don't really see why this Slart quote would get any more hoopla than another one. To be fair, that is normally a lot of hoopla. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 20:09
The new deal, perhaps the greatest example of big guvment, how FDR cutting back on it prolonged the depression?
I imagine Pat is strangling his heart as I type!

You don't usually cause the hoopla though drewbeard


heh

hoopla!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 20:48
Is this thread meeting it's demise, or was David's comment seen as offensive? Confused

edit: erm ok.

Well, to what he was saying, what would've happened in Europe without US involvement in WW2?
I would agree 100% with "it would've been a much longer conflict and the bolsheviks would be much larger"

Stalin was a realist and if anyone thinks he didn't want land and an empire like the others.....sadly mistaken.
I am sure he would've gone for Western Europe.
Also, the idea of communism was to over throw the entire capitalist system. I have no doubt he would've tried.

Maybe an unpopular answer here, but I do think WW2 was the one war that justified involvement, whichever way you want to look at it. Not that it would be a good thing...even if necessary and justified.


Edited by JJLehto - December 16 2011 at 20:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 20:51
It's not dying yet. I just decided against commenting on another post for a resolved topic. Especially not since we're on a new, more interesting topic.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 20:53
Originally posted by horsewithteeth11 horsewithteeth11 wrote:

It's not dying yet. I just decided against commenting on another post for a resolved topic. Especially not since we're on a new, more interesting topic.


o
whoops! Well I commentedBig smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 20:58
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by horsewithteeth11 horsewithteeth11 wrote:

It's not dying yet. I just decided against commenting on another post for a resolved topic. Especially not since we're on a new, more interesting topic.


o
whoops! Well I commentedBig smile

You did. And now I'm commenting and extending this quote pyramid.

It's all your fault! <.<
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 21:25
Oi that has nothing to do with anything though >_>

I was also hoping to start the next thread for grand irony.
Libertarian Thread 3: Baby you're like a marxist society, no class!

<_<



Edited by JJLehto - December 16 2011 at 21:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 16 2011 at 21:34
o.O
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2011 at 07:36
Originally posted by Dudemanguy Dudemanguy wrote:

 

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

How would that end the depression? You should stop thinking of an economic downturn as numbers on a tally sheet and instead think of something physical like a standard of living. Could you explain to me how nations buying guns reinvigorated. the economy?

An economic downturn is exactly that, numbers on a tally sheet. It's a significant drop in production or spending in a country that can be caused by various things. Of course, a fast growing economy is not always a good thing. Mexico and China have some of the largest economies in the world, but both countries suffer massive poverty and income inequality. In the case of WWII, America's industries suddenly started working again to produce guns, ammunition, etc. for the war effort. So suddenly, there were millions of jobs available and people actually had money to buy things with. Obviously, this is a mobilized economy (AKA one built around war) and it is far from ideal or something you actually want. However, the unemployment dramatically dropped and spending dramatically rose causing a great increase in GDP meaning a huge upturn in the economy. 



You do not not believe that the actual production and consumption matters, only the numeric values of purchases we label those words?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2011 at 07:37
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Isn't getting involved in a war just as much an act of government as any public works project that FDR proposed? It seems like that might be why you two are disagreeing now.


As much as I disagree with public works projects, I'm not going to compare them to something like the firebombing of Dresden. This is absurd.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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