I Will Not Go Quietly!

I think I'd prefer to be a free criminal than a safe 'subject'.

Hey James it's not new that every criminal wants to remain free

Now seriously, I always defend civil rights but there's a point in which an utopic seaech for the perfect civil society helps the criminal, I think USA is reaching that point.

Iván

 

James Lee wrote: ^ our civil rights certainly did exist in 1941, and they were violated for the Japanese-Americans. We all know it was wrong and that things like that shouldn't be allowed to happen. Are you helping me prove my point? Thanks.  Have you ever heard that to become your enemy is to lose? If we weren't sure we had a better way of doing things, how could we ever think we deserved to win? So you're really saying that In order to defeat the terrorists, we have to act like the terrorists. Once we've won, we'll be satisfied that we'd rid the world of terrorists...well, except for us. But that will be okay because we're better than them.

C'mon James! That's crazy! You know damn well that the fundamental difference between us and the terrorists is that WE can control our killing extincts through reason and intellect and they can't! We have the ability to say "Ok, we'll kill today, but we won't kill tomorrow." They can't do that! They are bent on a religious dillusion. When are you going to stop thinking were the bad guys for crying out loud!

Oh! And as far as what we did to the Japanese-Americans then was not wrong at the time and nobody was complaining about it 'til now!

Edited by marktheshark

The most thorough research on the subject of the current terrorism activity and threat (20 years of research - look it up on the Times site) concludes that terrorist acts directed towards the majority of western democracies including, UK and USA are because of western troops active in the Arabian peninsula. When US and Israeli troops pulled out of Lebanon, Hezbolah gradually ceased to be a functioning terrorist organisation and entered into the political arena instead.

Many of the suicide bombers are from middle class origin, well educated and have only been recruited within weeks or months before commiting the atrocity. Most of them do it because they are so angry about western troops being on land which they consider to be 'sacred' to them. Islamic acts of faith and purity requires that you do not indulge in or are defiled by impurity. (This is understandable) They do not appreciate people (soldiers) that come from a country that spends appx 12 billion dollars a year on pornography, coming to their land in the so called name of freedom, justice and honour. Remember please, that the most sacred land on the Arabian peninsula is Saudi Arabia and US troops have been there for a long time.

You will not defeat a people who are operating on principles of faith. They will fight to the death. In order to understand this we must step outside of our own comfort zones and narrow viewpoints and try to picture ourselves as we might consider things, given the same set of circumstances as the people we sometimes judge. I am not agreeing with the principles of their faith on which they act nor even their motivation for I am of a different culture, but neither shall I judge now, for there is no man on the face of this earth who can say that, given the right set of circumstances, birth, upbringing, psychological factors, culture etc who can say that they would or would not act a certain way given the situation.

Of all the mistakes the USA made in going into Iraq, the biggest was their complete lack of understanding about the culture and that if you conduct an act of violence, particularly murder of a member of a tribe, there is an edict that whoever is responsible (army, individual, people group etc) can be hunted down till the fifth generation, anywhere at any time until justice is seen to be served. This is part of traditional justice and honor system. Effectively, Vietnam will become nowhere near the curse that Iraq will probably become because of this.

Moderate Moslems are not condoning the terrorist acts, but the recruiting centres are mainly fundamentalist Maddrashs. (Egypt has just taken a hit from terrorists today with over 75 killed - all countries considered 'western' aligned are targets) Pakistan is attempting to do something about their maddrashs by arresting any 'fanatic's - 300 this week. As a consequence there have been violent protests in Pakistan. Thailand is on a state of alert. This is a global problem. It is nationalistic interests that often get us in these binds in the first place.

As for ID cards, they have been under consideration in our country since the 1980s when a labor (not conservative) government tabled it in its own party room but shelved it because of the public backlash. There is little that our governments don't already know about us already, so this will be the end of anonimity, if it wasn't already.

My concern about this is not as much for the present but how all this will be used in the future (soon). Blood type, genetic make up  (basically every intimate detail of our lives) and future governments who may make our current ones appear like kindergarten teachers (although it depends on what your experience of kinder was how you take that)

Unfortunately we have brought a curse on ourselves (western countries) by undertaking dishonorable, unjustified assaults against sovereign nations and we are now stuck with the consequences of it, until an honorable solution can be found to resolve it.


Edited by barbs

So much has been said already on this thread.

Holland is libralism incarnate, yet since 9/11 the police can, and do, hold "spot controls" of vehicles, and I can tell you, if they happen to find anything at all, you're busted. All in the name of Bush's T.W.A.T.! 

We are now legally obliged to carry some form of ID, although a driver's licence is sufficient. Should compulsory ID cards be introduced, with all the possibilities of global tracking, then I'm going underground. Yes, I will be a dissident. I refuse to be treated like a criminal, all in the name of Bush's T.W.A.T.!

All those controle freaks in power are rubbing their hands together with more than a little glee. Every bombing brings them one step closer to the totalitarian state they long for. This is a Prog site, so I'll give the last word to Hawkwind....

Computers are abused, school records are fed,

The police are checking on what you said.

The number of your car is fed into a box,

Your journey's being checked, it's a paradox.

Duplicate forms and ID cards are next in line to disregard.

Future generations are relying on us

It's a world we've made......Incubus.

Edited by emdiar

goose wrote: Remember Luke Skywalker could have easily destroyed the Death Star by using the dark force. But only by choosing the good and right way could he save the universe!   Need I say more?

Oh yes, the good and right way is tops.

Although one wouldn't mind an A-wing crashing into the bridge of a Super Star Destroyer, which would impale the Death Star.

Or a Millenium Falcon and a squadron of X-wings pounding laser blasts and photon torpedoes into the core of the Death Star.

And a touch of Darth Vader grabbing the Emperor and throwing him into the generators.

So Maani, you've got my best wishes and support, but I'm neither a repentant dark Jedi, nor a 11+ mile starship one could hurl at things, nor the Rebellion star fleet. If you get the chance to trade my best wishes and support in for these things, don't hesitate to do so.

Now back to playing that Homeworld 2 mod I go...

   

America's government have achieved in four years what the terrorist couldn't accomplish in 50 years.

 

 

 

On behave of the terrorist, may I please thank George, Tony and Jan Peter, and other leaders of the formerly free western world, you all have been good ally's, and a heartfelt thank you is in place.

signed

Your friend Osama B.

 

The big myth of course, is that Islamic fundamentalist terrorists have one agenda, that being to undermine our so called democracy. This is what Bush would have us all believe. He (or rather "they" [neocons]) drone on about animals whose only desire is to make our lives hell out of pure spite. The Idealogues of which he speaks live not to impose islamic law on western countries, nor to kill infidels for sport. The truth is, they have a far clearer agenda than that.

If you think the internal destruction of our civil rights is high on their list of objectives you are misguided. Rather, it is high on the lists of our own powermad leaders, and is nothing more than the byproduct of the bombings.

No, only one thing causes a young idealistic and religious person to murder innocent civilians: revenge! Bush won't tell you that, because then he'd have to tell us just why these people feel so hard done by in the first place.

I in no way condone any act of murder, but let's stop pretending they're acting out of some sort of psychopathic bloodlust, and that western states are pure as the driven snow. The USA and co have actively supported Isreal in its terrorist acts against Palestinian people. Face it, "our" hands are certainly not clean in this so called war.

Oh, and DOCTOR, one more thing on racial profiling; one of the four London bombers was Jamaican.

Edited by emdiar

Tony R wrote: This debate has boiled down to two factions: One one side are those who know their history,can back up their statements with fact and aren't just formalising a personal viewpoint key-stroke by keystroke (or "winging it" as we call it in the Uk) 2.On the other side isThe Doctor & Marktheshark. That might seem very insulting,but guys you are insulting our intelligence with this ill-thought out,fascist,racist bull! Exhibit one: (MTS) "The civil liberties you're referring to didn't even exist in 1941 when we were hording off every Japanese-American on the west coast to intern camps. " What on earth inspired you to come out with that ridiculous statement? Let's discuss the truth of that whopper: "civil-liberties"-yes they exist,so no problem there."1941"-well we know that existed."Japanese Americans being bussed off to intern camps":correctomundo! you are on a roll!"West Coast" wow,that too exists and was also where the unfortunateJapanese- Americans were sent!! So with all those factually correct statements,what led you to creating a sentence that was so egregiously incorrect? Exhibit Two:(The Doctor) "Sorry, but the bad guys are Arabs, not young white girls or professional white or black men for that matter.  If that means we discriminate against Arabs, well that's too bad for them.  Maybe the innocent Arabs will start policing their own if they get tired of the discrimination.  And I don't really care about being fair.  I care about being protected. " So,Doctor when do we start persecuting white people so they will adequately police members of the KKK,White Supremacists and other vigilante "liberty-threatening" redneck racists? Why not persecute Irish people for not "policing" the Provos and the UDA? Or so-called American Irish for donating money to the IRA? The Germans for not policing the Bader-Meinhof group or The Doctor himself (yourself) for not making any effort to police Timothy Mcveigh? You havent really thought that disgraceful piece of rhetoric out have you? So,I wish to make a proposal: Before entering into Philosophical Debate in future,dont just write the first bit of rubbish that comes into your head,dont present suppositions or wishful-thinking as fact (someone here will very quickly catch you out) and above all else,analyse your words so you can excise the horrifically racist comments before disgracing yourself in front of your peers.

First off Tony you didn't read everthing I posted here. What I meant was as far as civil liberties was that in 1941 we didn't have the civil rights protections that we have now. My point was that our country has done worse compared to now as far as infringement on freedoms. I don't condone hording Muslims off to intern camps. That would be unspeakable. James was right, what we did in 1941 was wrong and I'm not trying to justify it. But what erks me is people like Maani who think things like a search at an airport are on the same level of Gestapo activity. I just think that's over-reacting. Basically it comes down to that the majority of the people here are willing to live with it. If they didn't, the pres, senators and congressman would be voted out of office. That's how it works here. Of course some people will never admit to that. They think it's some sort of systematic conspiracy to thwart the will of the people like the pres ordering the execution of some 3000 people in 2 certain buildings in Manhattan. To me, that kind of thinking is on the same paranoid fanatical level as the terrorists themselves!

As far as freedom infringement, we don't need terrorists to spark this. This has been going on here in this country for decades. We have appointed judges (not elected, mind you) writing law from the bench right under our noses. And it's really gotten out of hand. What's the use of having senators and congressmans if they're not going to legislate? The will of the people is constantly thwarted by these activist judges. Right now there's a movement to regulate the punishment of violent crime perpetrators simply based on what they were thinking at the time of the crime. Hence my sig here on the Brain Police. That's just one example on a list of thousands. The list goes on in this dept.

I'm sorry if my remarks were misconstrude as racist. That was not my intention. To me, I don't believe in the white race, the black race, the oriental race, the Arab race, just the human race. Anything else is just a matter of national and cultural heritage. Big difference! If you seem to think that someone who is born and raised in a different country with a different color is that of a different race, then maybe you're the racist!

Thought this would interest everyone.  It is just out of London via CBS News.  Maybe they'll shoot someone dead in NYC now, too...And Ivan - note the willingness of citizens to "help" the police by spying on neighbors and reporting them...It is happening here as well...

Peace.

BRAZILIAN SHOT BY U.K. POLICE NOT CONNECTED TO BOMB ATTACKS
WebPosted Sat Jul 23 08:45:48 2005

---British police say a man they killed on a London subway train wasn't
connected to Thursday's attempted bombings in the city's transit system.

The man, identified by police as 27-year-old Brazilian citizen Jean
Charles de Menezes, was shot in the head five times in front of dozens of
passengers on a train at the Stockwell subway station on Friday.

Police initially said the man was "directly linked" with the failed
attempts to bomb three subway trains and a bus on Thursday – two
weeks after 56 people were killed in four suicide bombings in the city's
transit system.

However, Scotland Yard issued a statement late Saturday clearing the man,
later identified as de Menezes, of involvement in the attacks.

"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of
Thursday 21st July 2005," said the statement.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and
one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets."

The police force said officers saw the man emerge from a house that they
had been staking out as part of the hunt for the bombers. They said
suspicions were aroused because he was wearing an unseasonably bulky
jacket and acting oddly, so they followed him and eventually chased him
into the station.

Officials said there will be an independent inquiry into the shooting.

Error fuels fears among Muslims

The admission of error further fueled controversy over the shooting,
which was the first public application of a policy to stop suicide
bombers devised after the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States.

It gives police the authority to shoot suspected suicide bombers first
and ask questions later.

Police authorities said officers have to aim for the heads of suspected
bombers because they could have explosives strapped to their bodies.

Critics accused the police of having a "shoot-to-kill" policy.

The shooting further increased anxiety among the country's Muslim
population. A number of Muslim leaders expressed concerns about the
possibility of racial profiling by the police, especially given the
climate of fear in London.

The shooting may undermine confidence in the police, said Azzam Tamimi,
spokesman for the Muslim Association of Britain.

Three of the four suspects identified by police in connection with the
July 7 bombings were British-born Muslims of Pakistani origin. (The
fourth suspect was a Jamaican-born British citizen.)

Police arrest 2nd man

Also on Saturday, police arrested a second man in London in connection
with Thursday's attacks.

The suspect, who has not been publicly identified, was arrested in the
south London neighbourhood of Stockwell.

It's the same neighbourhood where police detained another suspect on
Friday and where they shot and killed the man at the subway station.

Subway station evacuated

London remained in a state of constant alert throughout the day.

In one of a number of security scares, British police briefly evacuated a
subway station in east London on Saturday after a passenger reported
smelling something burning.

The Metropolitan Police investigated, but dismissed it as a false alarm.

Authorities are reported to have cancelled all vacations for police
officers, in order to boost their numbers on the streets and carry out a
massive manhunt for suspects.

Police officials said tips from the public have poured in after they
released photos of the four suspects, which were taken from closed-
circuit surveillance cameras in the British capital's subways and buses.

Investigators are continuing to examine the remains of the knapsack bombs
left on three subway cars and on the top deck of a double-decker bus
Thursday. They're looking for fingerprints or DNA from the would-be
bombers, who escaped in the panic that followed, and trying to determine
whether the explosives were connected to the July 7 suicide bombs.

Police are also sifting through a large number of witness accounts and
photos from the Oval, Shepherd's Bush and Warren Street subway stations,
as well as the Hackney Road site of the bus incident.

A statement posted on an Islamic website in the name of an al-Qaeda-
linked group claimed responsibility for Thursday's attacks. The group,
which is calling itself Abu Hafs al Masri Brigade, also claimed
responsibility for the July 7 bombings. The claims can't be verified.

stonebeard wrote: ^^^^ well i don't see why this is much of a problem. i can see though why Muslims would be upset by this, for they are probably the most likely to be shot. but think about it, if you're following a suspected suicide bomber, the head is the only body part to aim at. the body, if an explosive is be worn, may explode on contact, and if the legs are shot to immobilize thesuspect, he may still be able to detonate the bomb, if there were one. in this terrorist climate, i agree that it is all about fear and what fear can make us do. we have to take precautions, no matter how ugly they may be. they should not, however, infring upon the people so much that they fear for their lives

well, your stand covers plenty of ground...looks like you'll be okay no matter how it turns out. Polish ancestry, perhaps?

anyway, MtS:
So are you saying that democracy is only in effect once every four years?

approximately half the country voted Bush out of office during the last election. Since then, he's lost more support than he's gained. Therefore, a majority of the country is now by definition opposed to him. He is on public record lying to the American people about WMDs, but there's no further investigation or even much talk of impeachment (you might say lying to get us into a war is less diabolical than lying about receiving oral sex). He has ensured that he is about as untouchable as possible- what good are checks and balances when the majority of elected officials are cronies and sycophants who ignore the expressed will of the people?