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tszirmay 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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 Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:04 |
 thellama73 wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
I don't like Spanish. I don't know why, but I just don't like the sound and can't motivate myself to learn it. I love Italian, however, and am a language enthusiast in general. I have studied a good half dozen, but sadly have never mastered a second language to the point of fluidity.
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I truly believe that to be a shortcoming of America- whether public ed or private or home school. What say you?
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I don't really agree. I think it's our geographical isolation rather than a fault of the education system. In Europe it's simply practical to learn several languages because of all the nearby countries, and you're bound to be exposed a lot to other languages. This is why so many people in the American southwest speak Spanish-they're around it all the time.
Someone living in, say, Ohio, has no reason to learn another language and is unlikely to encounter much exposure. Language is a very hard thing to acquire without consistent exposure.
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Not necessarily true, you are an apologist for linguistic secularism. Internet and globalization has eliminated that excuse . There are few uni-ethnic areas left in America. 40 years ago being a polyglot in Europe was very rare , only among the diplomatic corps and the elite. But today , even Italians and Hungarians learn English. Many Americans have said to my face that they only need English , why learn anything else? as if I were a moron! |
I don't really see that it contradicts what I said. Most of the internet is in English, so English speakers will not encounter foreign languages consistently unless they seek it out. It is also hard to become fluent through only reading and without speaking or listening. More Europeans are learning English today, presumably because of the influx of English media (movies, tv and the internet)
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That is not new , mon ami! What about Spanish (namely Mexican TV) , why do only latinos watch it? Because , most Americans believe that only one language is necessary and paramount ! Stonebeard even agreed to that! As if learning another language has no benefits! Well it saved my balls!
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:04 |
tszirmay wrote:
How is this for EXPOSURE : I got a good story for you, in 1980 I was in LA to give my
mom away to her new surfer husband and one fine Sunday, I put on a suit and tie
and went for a walk (Who walks in LA= stupid tourists!) down the celebrated Sunset
Strip. As perhaps many know, the good neighborhoods collide with very bad ones,
simply by crossing the street (good Beverly Hills,
ok West Hollywood , bad Hollywood, good Hancock Park
and finally landed in East LA , after going
below an underpass. Everything was now in Spanish and it was not a pretty sight.
There had been ugly riots there recently and as I turned to withdraw, I heard two
Chicano dudes in leather jackets playing with a switchblade and mumbling in Spanish
“Look at the pretty gringo, let’s cut his cojones off!”).
Running away? Stooooopid move, so I went up to them and in
perfect Spanish told them “I am from Canada and I am looking for the
church!” Their jovial response was “Conyo, hermano, come with us, we take you
there” backslapping me and being super courteous. When I got to the church, the
priest asked me if I was suicidal, as not even the cops dare to show up in this
section of Los Angeles
DURING THE DAY . Only later did I realize that they knew very well that I was
no Latino brother (even though my tan was very rich) but because I spoke their
language on their turf, I was to be respected. So I kept my testicles ….. |
Jesus, man. Around here, we don't worry about knives.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:07 |
stonebeard wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Many Americans have said to my face that they only need English , why learn anything else? as if I were a moron!
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It may have benefits, but I'd say they're fringe benefits for most Americans at best. |
Americans are culturally fringe because they believe that only their culture counts.  This is one of the proving points that makes the USA attitude so incomprehensible to even allies and friends, like us Canadians. This center of the universe thingy! 
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:09 |
Epignosis wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
How is this for EXPOSURE : I got a good story for you, in 1980 I was in LA to give my
mom away to her new surfer husband and one fine Sunday, I put on a suit and tie
and went for a walk (Who walks in LA= stupid tourists!) down the celebrated Sunset
Strip. As perhaps many know, the good neighborhoods collide with very bad ones,
simply by crossing the street (good Beverly Hills,
ok West Hollywood , bad Hollywood, good Hancock Park
and finally landed in East LA , after going
below an underpass. Everything was now in Spanish and it was not a pretty sight.
There had been ugly riots there recently and as I turned to withdraw, I heard two
Chicano dudes in leather jackets playing with a switchblade and mumbling in Spanish
“Look at the pretty gringo, let’s cut his cojones off!”).
Running away? Stooooopid move, so I went up to them and in
perfect Spanish told them “I am from Canada and I am looking for the
church!” Their jovial response was “Conyo, hermano, come with us, we take you
there” backslapping me and being super courteous. When I got to the church, the
priest asked me if I was suicidal, as not even the cops dare to show up in this
section of Los Angeles
DURING THE DAY . Only later did I realize that they knew very well that I was
no Latino brother (even though my tan was very rich) but because I spoke their
language on their turf, I was to be respected. So I kept my testicles ….. |
Jesus, man. Around here, we don't worry about knives.
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That 's because you have guns, brother! And the right to use them!
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:11 |
tszirmay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
How is this for EXPOSURE : I got a good story for you, in 1980 I was in LA to give my
mom away to her new surfer husband and one fine Sunday, I put on a suit and tie
and went for a walk (Who walks in LA= stupid tourists!) down the celebrated Sunset
Strip. As perhaps many know, the good neighborhoods collide with very bad ones,
simply by crossing the street (good Beverly Hills,
ok West Hollywood , bad Hollywood, good Hancock Park
and finally landed in East LA , after going
below an underpass. Everything was now in Spanish and it was not a pretty sight.
There had been ugly riots there recently and as I turned to withdraw, I heard two
Chicano dudes in leather jackets playing with a switchblade and mumbling in Spanish
“Look at the pretty gringo, let’s cut his cojones off!”).
Running away? Stooooopid move, so I went up to them and in
perfect Spanish told them “I am from Canada and I am looking for the
church!” Their jovial response was “Conyo, hermano, come with us, we take you
there” backslapping me and being super courteous. When I got to the church, the
priest asked me if I was suicidal, as not even the cops dare to show up in this
section of Los Angeles
DURING THE DAY . Only later did I realize that they knew very well that I was
no Latino brother (even though my tan was very rich) but because I spoke their
language on their turf, I was to be respected. So I kept my testicles ….. |
Jesus, man. Around here, we don't worry about knives.
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That 's because you have guns, brother! And the right to use them! |
True, but I wonder-
If we could communicate better, even in our native language or in another tongue if needed, would we need such a....
...of course we would. I work at a school.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:12 |
Epignosis wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
How is this for EXPOSURE : I got a good story for you, in 1980 I was in LA to give my
mom away to her new surfer husband and one fine Sunday, I put on a suit and tie
and went for a walk (Who walks in LA= stupid tourists!) down the celebrated Sunset
Strip. As perhaps many know, the good neighborhoods collide with very bad ones,
simply by crossing the street (good Beverly Hills,
ok West Hollywood , bad Hollywood, good Hancock Park
and finally landed in East LA , after going
below an underpass. Everything was now in Spanish and it was not a pretty sight.
There had been ugly riots there recently and as I turned to withdraw, I heard two
Chicano dudes in leather jackets playing with a switchblade and mumbling in Spanish
“Look at the pretty gringo, let’s cut his cojones off!”).
Running away? Stooooopid move, so I went up to them and in
perfect Spanish told them “I am from Canada and I am looking for the
church!” Their jovial response was “Conyo, hermano, come with us, we take you
there” backslapping me and being super courteous. When I got to the church, the
priest asked me if I was suicidal, as not even the cops dare to show up in this
section of Los Angeles
DURING THE DAY . Only later did I realize that they knew very well that I was
no Latino brother (even though my tan was very rich) but because I spoke their
language on their turf, I was to be respected. So I kept my testicles ….. |
Jesus, man. Around here, we don't worry about knives.
|
That 's because you have guns, brother! And the right to use them! |
True, but I wonder-
If we could communicate better, even in our native language or in another tongue if needed, would we need such a....
...of course we would. I work at a school.
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Are you a teacher?
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:15 |
The most honorable of professions. The art of communicating information is the ultimate vocation. Now imagine if you could talk to each of your students in their mother tongues. Do you not think that would have a positive effect?
I'd say a miraculous one! Sir! (To Sir with Love!)
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:15 |
tszirmay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
How is this for EXPOSURE : I got a good story for you, in 1980 I was in LA to give my
mom away to her new surfer husband and one fine Sunday, I put on a suit and tie
and went for a walk (Who walks in LA= stupid tourists!) down the celebrated Sunset
Strip. As perhaps many know, the good neighborhoods collide with very bad ones,
simply by crossing the street (good Beverly Hills,
ok West Hollywood , bad Hollywood, good Hancock Park
and finally landed in East LA , after going
below an underpass. Everything was now in Spanish and it was not a pretty sight.
There had been ugly riots there recently and as I turned to withdraw, I heard two
Chicano dudes in leather jackets playing with a switchblade and mumbling in Spanish
“Look at the pretty gringo, let’s cut his cojones off!”).
Running away? Stooooopid move, so I went up to them and in
perfect Spanish told them “I am from Canada and I am looking for the
church!” Their jovial response was “Conyo, hermano, come with us, we take you
there” backslapping me and being super courteous. When I got to the church, the
priest asked me if I was suicidal, as not even the cops dare to show up in this
section of Los Angeles
DURING THE DAY . Only later did I realize that they knew very well that I was
no Latino brother (even though my tan was very rich) but because I spoke their
language on their turf, I was to be respected. So I kept my testicles ….. |
Jesus, man. Around here, we don't worry about knives.
|
That 's because you have guns, brother! And the right to use them! |
True, but I wonder-
If we could communicate better, even in our native language or in another tongue if needed, would we need such a....
...of course we would. I work at a school.
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Are you a teacher? |
I am in my fourth year a teacher.
We had a riot last year during breakfast. It's a race thing- blacks vs. Native Americans.
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:17 |
tszirmay wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Many Americans have said to my face that they only need English , why learn anything else? as if I were a moron!
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It may have benefits, but I'd say they're fringe benefits for most Americans at best. |
Americans are culturally fringe because they believe that only their culture counts. This is one of the proving points that makes the USA attitude so incomprehensible to even allies and friends, like us Canadians. This center of the universe thingy! |
I find your constant generalizations about Americans lacking curiosity and a desire to learn somewhat offensive. As I've mentioned, I love language and take great pleasure in studying it, and I have been told that I have talent for it (as evidenced by my grades in my college major of Russian) but to become fluent as an adult requires an immense commitment of time and energy. I certainly believe learning other languages is valuable, but the truth is we rarely have opportunities or necessity to use languages other than English unless we specifically seek them out. The benefit is not worth the cost for most of us. That doesn't mean we're lazy. And I still maintain thta it's easier to learn a foreign language growing up in a major city in a European country where one can have near constant exposure to the languages of tourists.
Edited by thellama73 - September 24 2012 at 22:18
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:21 |
Epignosis wrote:
The T wrote:
It's difficult to convey in words, the typical "gringo" Spanish is never free of a strong accent and the apparent inability to properly roll the "rrrrs"  . Sometimes it sounds so imperfect that it feels like some people really had to learn to speak Spanish and didn't really want to do it. To be honest, it just sounds funny in most cases, but the better cases sound quite to-the-point-ish, direct, not arrogant nor humble but, how can I say it, just on point. It has a lot to do with cultural elements. Besides the pronunciation itself, the tone, the way things are said, are different in that there is a lot more of display of feelings imbedded in words when hispanics speaks Spanish than the more direct, dry, yet matter-of-factly way that Americans use when speaking Spanish.
They make the language sound more direct and utilitarian, we can say, even if the "rrrs" are left unrolled  |
I can roll my tongue. However, I think (translate in my head) about what I want to say in Spanish. I also have difficulty with the verb tenses, so I tend to speak in the present tense.
"Yo necessito una cerveza." 
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I would say that it is quite common not so much to hear only the present tense but also the infinitive. It's like hispanics who don't know much English and end up putting an "ing" at the end of any Spanish verb
Now of course I'm quite sure you are incapable of saying what you just said in Spanish in any other tense but the present one
Edited by The T - September 24 2012 at 22:22
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:27 |
)
thellama73 wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Many Americans have said to my face that they only need English , why learn anything else? as if I were a moron!
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It may have benefits, but I'd say they're fringe benefits for most Americans at best. |
Americans are culturally fringe because they believe that only their culture counts. This is one of the proving points that makes the USA attitude so incomprehensible to even allies and friends, like us Canadians. This center of the universe thingy! |
I find your constant generalizations about Americans lacking curiosity and a desire to learn somewhat offensive.
As I've mentioned, I love language and take great pleasure in studying it, and I have been told that I have talent for it (as evidenced by my grades in my college major of Russian) but to become fluent as an adult requires an immense commitment of time and energy. I certainly believe learning other languages is valuable, but the truth is we rarely have opportunities or necessity to use languages other than English unless we specifically seek them out.
The benefit is not worth the cost for most of us. That doesn't mean we're lazy. And I still maintain thta it's easier to learn a foreign language growing up in a major city in a European country where one can have near constant exposure to the languages of tourists.
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I am sorry that I somehow offended you but if you look at your post , you simply contradict yourself! I never said you were lazy (I am not a republican candidate  ). You state that learning another language has no benefits and not worth the cost. Is everything culturally dictated by cost? Do you not think that a young American businessman seeking to do business in China who speaks mandarin would be a prefered candidate over someone who insists' "you guys gotta learn our English" . My generalizations are not constant nor are they offensive because your comments only uphold my arguments. I have been around a long time and deeply enjoy American values along with their weaknesses. Unless of course you wish to deny their existence. |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:27 |
The T wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
The T wrote:
It's difficult to convey in words, the typical "gringo" Spanish is never free of a strong accent and the apparent inability to properly roll the "rrrrs" . Sometimes it sounds so imperfect that it feels like some people really had to learn to speak Spanish and didn't really want to do it. To be honest, it just sounds funny in most cases, but the better cases sound quite to-the-point-ish, direct, not arrogant nor humble but, how can I say it, just on point. It has a lot to do with cultural elements. Besides the pronunciation itself, the tone, the way things are said, are different in that there is a lot more of display of feelings imbedded in words when hispanics speaks Spanish than the more direct, dry, yet matter-of-factly way that Americans use when speaking Spanish.
They make the language sound more direct and utilitarian, we can say, even if the "rrrs" are left unrolled |
I can roll my tongue. However, I think (translate in my head) about what I want to say in Spanish. I also have difficulty with the verb tenses, so I tend to speak in the present tense.
"Yo necessito una cerveza."
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I would say that it is quite common not so much to hear only the present tense but also the infinitive. It's like hispanics who don't know much English and end up putting an "ing" at the end of any Spanish verb
Now of course I'm quite sure you are incapable of saying what you just said in Spanish in any other tense but the present one |
Ah, do you know me!
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:29 |
tszirmay wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Many Americans have said to my face that they only need English , why learn anything else? as if I were a moron!
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It may have benefits, but I'd say they're fringe benefits for most Americans at best. |
Americans are culturally fringe because they believe that only their culture counts. This is one of the proving points that makes the USA attitude so incomprehensible to even allies and friends, like us Canadians. This center of the universe thingy! |
It's not that we all think we're the center of the universe, it's that we don't see much of a reason to care. It's a subtle distinction. 
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:31 |
tszirmay wrote:
I am sorry that I somehow offended you but if you look at your post , you simply contradict yourself! How so?I never said you were lazy (I am not a republican candidate ). You state that learning another language has no benefitsI never said any such thing. Of course it has benefits. and not worth the cost. Is everything culturally dictated by cost? Yes, every decision any of us makes is based on a cost-benefit analysis. I am an economist.Do you not think that a young American businessman seeking to do business in China who speaks mandarin would be a prefered candidate over someone who insists' "you guys gotta learn our English" Of course, but most Americans don't do business in China. I'm sure many of the ones that do learn Mandarin. My generalizations are not constant nor are they offensive because your comments only uphold my arguments. I have been around a long time and deeply enjoy American values along with their weaknesses. Unless of course you wish to deny their existence. |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:35 |
The thing about having to learn other languages is a little overblown. If we in South America usually have to learn English it is because it is (or was) the most important language in the world, the language of business, the language of success one can say. Most everybody who graduates from a high-school like the one I graduated from can easily go to any English-speaking country and at least be able to decently survive (practice and actual desire to master the language will really make a difference). I see in America that most people graduating from high-school that I know can't speak any other language but English, possibly because of this pride for mono-lingualism, or maybe because in the US people always thought one just didn't need any other language. Nowadays, trend are shifting and I already know of school in my country focusing on Mandarin  ... In Europe? Well, when you have 83476834 languages in 8 square kilometers it just makes sense to learn a few of those...
I would love if the people that come to live here would also be willing to learn the English language though....
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:38 |
The T wrote:
Most everybody who graduates from a high-school like the one I graduated from can easily go to any English-speaking country and at least be able to decently survive (practice and actual desire to master the language will really make a difference). |
I am proud to say that I would be able to decently get by in Russia or Italy, and maybe Germany, even though I am far from fluent in any of them.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:40 |
stonebeard wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Many Americans have said to my face that they only need English , why learn anything else? as if I were a moron!
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It may have benefits, but I'd say they're fringe benefits for most Americans at best. |
Americans are culturally fringe because they believe that only their culture counts. This is one of the proving points that makes the USA attitude so incomprehensible to even allies and friends, like us Canadians. This center of the universe thingy! |
It's not that we all think we're the center of the universe, it's that we don't see much of a reason to care. It's a subtle distinction. |
Spoken like a true patriot ! No reason to care is the buzzword of the future. Sounds like Steve Wilson song
Thank you for proving my point so eloquently.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:43 |
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I have little practical reason to learn another language, but I wish to. I have tried. Though I may master English, I have failed in learning Spanish (though I can communicate some), Hebrew, Russian, and others. I have despaired.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:44 |
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: September 24 2012 at 22:45 |
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^I saw a Bible in parallel Hebrew, Greek and English today and thought of you Rob. I have learned a little ancient Greek and Biblical Hebrew is on my to do list. Maybe one day I can read it in the original.
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