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BaldJean 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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 Posted: August 29 2020 at 11:28 |
 rushfan4 wrote:
I'm a Democrat who is becoming disenchanted with the left wing of the party but can't stand Trump so feel like I am between a rock and a hard place. |
as a former American who now lives in Germany I am always amazed and amused by what Americans call "left-wing". the most left-wing democrat would be considered to be firmly in the center in most European countries
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: August 29 2020 at 11:41 |
back at you John! 
no one dislikes stereotypes more than me.. as a pro gun rights states rights libertarian big government spending social liberal.. I've been prone to them myself haha, People don't fit into nice tidy preconceived ideological boxes.
theirin in the rub.. politics is not the study of individuals.. their psychology.. but the larger masses.. and their behavior.. sociology vs. psychology if you will.
in that.. call it sterotyping if you will.. but the facts and the numbers bear out what I'm saying. It is a party dominated by Trump voter.. Trumpism.. not at the individual level.. but on a national level which is what matters.
perhaps your 1/3 x 3 is true for politicians in the reality of Trump.. hell.. I'll give you that in your experience with Republicans on a personal level. taht might be true.
what I am saying.. is nationally.. that does not ... for it it did John.. that 45% support.. would not be 40% it is now.. but more like 20 something...
Trump voter IS the Republican base.. and there is not a thing the 2/3rds establishment that isn't can do about it.. but do what they have.. pander to them.. less losing their support.. either to rivals who'll primary them from the right.. or simply sit at home and not vote.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: August 29 2020 at 12:06 |
BaldJean wrote:
rushfan4 wrote:
I'm a Democrat who is becoming disenchanted with the left wing of the party but can't stand Trump so feel like I am between a rock and a hard place. |
as a former American who now lives in Germany I am always amazed and amused by what Americans call "left-wing". the most left-wing democrat would be considered to be firmly in the center in most European countries
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Word  . The fact that what is normal in Europe (and also in other Western countries) is considered borderline bolshevik in the US is one of the many things that prevented me from feeling at home here. And I'll stop at that, because my husband knows about my reservations, and I don't want to offend other people whom I like and respect. |
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10676
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Posted: August 29 2020 at 12:14 |
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^ A lot of truth to that for sure, but some of the most conservative people I know are Europeans who grew up in Soviet block countries. Even the most mild Democrat sponsored social programs make them bristle, and they tend to love Reagan.
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: August 29 2020 at 12:19 |
Easy Money wrote:
^ A lot of truth to that for sure, but some of the most conservative people I know are Europeans who grew up in Soviet block countries. Even the most mild Democrat sponsored social programs make them bristle, and they tend to love Reagan. |
This is true, though not of everyone who shares the same circumstances. It is, I believe, a similar phenomenon to the Cubans in Florida supporting the GOP. On the other hand, the vast majority of Western Europeans I have met since moving here tend to have my same viewpoint.
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JD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 07 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18446
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Posted: August 29 2020 at 13:05 |
Easy Money wrote:
If he loses this election, and especially if they lose the senate, you can expect a lot of the repub establishment to want to cleanse the party of his nonsense. |
Again, what kills me is that this is an "IF" statement. How can these guys hold their heads up with any sense of dignity?
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Thank you for supporting independently produced music
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7951
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Posted: August 29 2020 at 21:13 |
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"Thanks to advances, we have pioneered the fatality rate." (Donald Trump nomination acceptance speech)
Edited by HackettFan - August 29 2020 at 21:14
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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: August 30 2020 at 02:52 |
HackettFan wrote:
"Thanks to advances, we have pioneered the fatality rate." (Donald Trump nomination acceptance speech)
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yes, I had to snicker at this one too
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: September 06 2020 at 06:47 |
curious to see how this whole veteran thing plays out...
while the list of things politicians can not do has been whittled down significantly by Trump.. this one I don't think even he can survive. That is a true 3rd rail of politics.. support the veterans.. even if a draft dodger. respect for those who do put their lives on the line.. much less give the ultimate sacrifice to something greater than themselves
for as has been pointed out numerous times... does anyone really think that is not how he thinks..
if this had been attributed to Obama or Bush.. the onus of proof would have been needed for it would be thought a low class hit job...
not so with Trump and this one might be fatal... racist? check.. this is a racist nation so he proved you can be where none where openly before... misogistnic? check.. it is still a male dominated power structure here.. so he survived grabbing by the pussies..
but this.. wow...
and if the never Trumpers really want to see the end of Trump.. those like General Kelly and Mattis will come out from the shadows of 'anonymous' sources and Op Eds and directly attribute what he said..
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: September 06 2020 at 07:30 |
True or not, who knows?
It might have been fabricated, but who cares, as the necessity proof of accusations have been more or less eradicated by the Trump administration themselves; something that has now come around to bite them on the ass big time.
If it was fabricated, not only is it a stoop down to the level of dirty fighting of Trump himself, but also a roundhouse kick that looks as if it might well have big repercussions.
Whatever, well done! Wonder what's going to be next.
Edited by npjnpj - September 06 2020 at 07:35
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Snicolette
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 02 2018
Location: OR
Status: Offline
Points: 6048
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Posted: September 06 2020 at 08:04 |
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The biggest problem with his denial of it, is what he very openly said about John McCain. And has tried to rewrite, but some things you just can't. Some things you say can come back and bite you. Even when you're 45.
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: September 06 2020 at 08:23 |
As an aside: I have very mixed feelings about John McCain. No doubt he pretty much defines the term War Hero, but I'm still haunted by him getting on that stage and singing: Bomb, bomb Iraq to the tune of Barbara Ann. I can't fathom how someone could be a tortured POW for years and still advocate for war. There's something off there.
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Snicolette
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 02 2018
Location: OR
Status: Offline
Points: 6048
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Posted: September 06 2020 at 08:25 |
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I agree with you on that, plus I was not personally for other things about his politics. Nonetheless, 45's attacks and especially, even after he was dead, are just bizarre.
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: September 06 2020 at 09:23 |
The patterns so far seem to be similar to the UK general last year with three key differences:
1) A very large minority coalition. And while the support Dems enjoy from them is weakening, they still grant a sizable advantage to the Dems, one that the Labour Party didn't enjoy.
2) There is no major third party like Lib Dems to divide the affluent suburban vote. This phenomenon had helped the Tories hold on to suburban seats some feared their stance on Brexit would cause them to lose.
3) Biden is not a hard left progressive by a long shot and his bland centrism allows a very big tent to converge around his candidacy, albeit at the cost of enthusiasm.
The similarity, as I mentioned, is that the GOP/Tories are consolidating the working class/blue collar vote while the Dems/Labour control the affluent/white collar vote. And this blue collar support seems to extend to black people in Pennsylvania, for one example.
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: September 06 2020 at 09:39 |
As I see it, the problem is that the USA is in trouble on so many fronts, what the voter wants is a strong leader to get it back on track, and one thing Biden doesn't display is strength. He's a sweet old guy who just bumbles along. I just can't picture him going up against anything with the necessary force.
If history is anything to go by, if a country is in a mess, it'll go for a strong leader, any strong leader, and Trump conveys that strength and determination. So the mess he's created could be what could keep him in power, regardless of that he's the cause.
Edited by npjnpj - September 06 2020 at 09:40
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: September 06 2020 at 10:48 |
rogerthat wrote:
The similarity, as I mentioned, is that the GOP/Tories are consolidating the working class/blue collar vote while the Dems/Labour control the affluent/white collar vote. And this blue collar support seems to extend to black people in Pennsylvania, for one example. |
one really big difference as I've alluded to between 2016 and 2020.. the biggest other than now Trump is the incumbent.. not the outsider (take a chance candidate)
the blue wall is history...that great Politico article a couple of weeks ago was spot on.. the electoral map has been blown wide open.. and Trump has so many leaks he can not plug them all... this election will not be decided by the white working class.. but the other two demographics that Trump has lost significant ground with.. the burbies.. and more under the radar..
old folks.. who have gone from supporting Trump by double digits in 2016.. to breaking dead even (GOP +1) in 2018.. to now by every single poll taken.. Dem by various single digits..
the blue wall doesn't matter Trump can even flip Minnesota . if . well... he loses seniors and the burbs..
that is where this election is different.. he is in big trouble with 3 different and distinct demographics.. and while he plays to white working class.. Arizona and Florida sliip.. and he can win almost all the upper midwest.. and he still loses..
Edited by micky - September 06 2020 at 10:50
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Snicolette
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 02 2018
Location: OR
Status: Offline
Points: 6048
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Posted: September 06 2020 at 11:04 |
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As you stated early on in this last post, he does also have a record now....A performance record, that is. Perhaps he should have some other kinds, but just ousting it will be a huge relief, should it come to pass.
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: September 06 2020 at 11:05 |
and that map was more to prove a point as to the overblown emphasis on the importance of Pennsylvania... so I gave N.C to Trump.. but already hearing from friends still at Bragg and Lejunne that (not surprisingly) Trump's Veteran are playing terribly. Probably enough to put Biden over the top there even without mass minority turnout that Obama enjoyed... so hell Trump can even flip Michigan back into his column.. take the whole of the midwest.. and if he loses retired military... he loses the election..
the polls will be interesting to watch for if his veteran comments have an effect. .it will most show in N.C.. and Florida.. both states chock a block full of military retiries...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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AFlowerKingCrimson
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Offline
Points: 18832
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Posted: September 06 2020 at 11:16 |
No matter what Trump does there will be people who support him if for no other reason than they hate and mistrust the left more than anything.
Right now Trump is down in the polls by at least five points in most places. However, none of that makes a difference if there is interference by Russia and China.
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - September 06 2020 at 11:20
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: September 06 2020 at 11:21 |
Snicolette wrote:
As you stated early on in this last post, he does also have a record now....A performance record, that is. Perhaps he should have some other kinds, but just ousting it will be a huge relief, should it come to pass. |
yeah... there is that.. but I did also mention some time back this other incredibly vital difference between 2016 and 2020... the fight then was over those Blue Wall .. working class voters..
now.. really.. they don't matter... and that is a profound difference between that election and this one..
Trump could break 'the blue wall' again.... keep his 2016 wins.. and hell even add MN.. and still lose for all the discord, hate, fear he mustered to gain them.. he has turned off two very different demographics that firmly supported him in 2016 and will flip other states...
ie.. he can win one of the three.. but not all of them.. that has been the fatal affliction his reelection chances have always had since the health care debacle of 2017 put the burbs and seniors out of the GOP 'coalition'
again.. that is not saying he can not win... but would anyone put any money on his chances.. nope.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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The American Politics Thread
