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Raff 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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 Posted: August 20 2020 at 12:47 |
 lazland wrote:
Snicolette wrote:
It's mind-boggling how his staunch supporters just keep going with him. |
From this side of the Atlantic, it isn’t, I am afraid.
Politics has shifted, irrevocably, from left/centre & right/centre to identities. Liberal v traditional identities (For want of a better word or phrase). There are many people who would not vote for a politician such as Biden, Saunders, Obama, and etc. no matter who was up against them, or no matter how incompetent. They do not buy into this type of politics. They never will. That is why they are sticking with Trumpalot, and will continue to do so.
Whether their numbers are enough to get him back in is another matter altogether.
We have had a very similar argument here over Brexit. The people who were diehard Remainers and EU supporters simply could not understand why the majority who voted to leave did so. They still don’t. As long as they continue in this blind manner, they will continue to lose. That is the danger with liberals in your country.
Never forget what motivates ordinary citizens. The only constant motto in politics that ever matters. |
I generally avoid posting here because these days I tend to get easily upset. However, I felt I needed to comment on the sentence I bolded in the previous post. Does it mean than none of 48% of people who voted remain in the Brexit referendum or of those millions who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016 were "ordinary citizens", concerned about how to put food on the table? From my own experience, a lot of people who voted Remain or dislike the current US administration are also "ordinary citizens", not members of the dreaded "elite class". One of them is my husband, but he's not the only one - far from that. There also much more nuance in the beliefs of the "other side" than supporters of the current administration and their ilk would have you believe. For instance, not everyone who is on the progressive side of things (politically, not musically  ) is a rabid fan of "cancel culture" and similar things. I know I am not. |
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AFlowerKingCrimson
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Offline
Points: 18907
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Posted: August 20 2020 at 22:15 |
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I don't know if I saw it on here or somewhere else but someone recently said that if it wasn't for the coronavirus Trump would probably win the next election. Here's the thing though. Trump's approval rating was sagging even before the coronavirus. Am I wrong? So no, him being impeached helped with that but the way he handled the coronavirus just made things worse. Yet, there are still those who will vote for him no matter what. He's like a cult leader.
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Snicolette
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 02 2018
Location: OR
Status: Offline
Points: 6048
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Posted: August 20 2020 at 22:18 |
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Yeah, like a colt in the head (that's a nod to the Firesign Theater). He didn't have a track record before, but he does now. Yet another thing hopefully against him. What a freaking disaster in so many ways. He will still have his base (and boy, aren't they, just). But I am hoping that a heavy voter turnout will nip him right in his my pillow.
Edited by Snicolette - August 20 2020 at 22:19
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: August 20 2020 at 23:10 |
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I was pleasantly surprised by the Biden speech. I know it's with a prompter and all but the delivery and the substance was welcome respite from the lecturing tone many of his Democrat peers frequently descend into. He conceded more to the Left than was expected but that may have been a calculated risk to enthuse the base.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65597
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Posted: August 21 2020 at 13:29 |
^ Yes it was a good performance despite the distant geriatric stare he often has.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10678
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Posted: August 21 2020 at 13:50 |
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Sure wish I needed new tires right now, they would be Goodyears no matter what the price.
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Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: August 21 2020 at 15:44 |
hah... speaking of tires.. am I the only one driving around with a safety inspection 5 months out of date and a registration that expired 2 months ago..
god bless pandemic extensions.. but true to form.. I have no clue how much of one we got.. and may not find out until I finally get pulled over. I've heard a trip the DMV is even a lower level than hell right now than a marathon 70's Genesis album listening...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: August 21 2020 at 15:48 |
rogerthat wrote:
I was pleasantly surprised by the Biden speech. I know it's with a prompter and all but the delivery and the substance was welcome respite from the lecturing tone many of his Democrat peers frequently descend into. He conceded more to the Left than was expected but that may have been a calculated risk to enthuse the base. |
first votes.. and those coming in the two most important.. ie if Trump loses them.. he loses.. states come in less than 4 weeks
I think he sealed it last night... slow old Joe.. he blew that out of the water in the minds of the very few that might have been undecided... and with the Trump assist of the whole Postal fiasco hitting the older voters hardest.
It is time to start writing the obit.. it's over...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13792
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Posted: August 22 2020 at 02:21 |
Raff wrote:
lazland wrote:
Snicolette wrote:
It's mind-boggling how his staunch supporters just keep going with him. |
From this side of the Atlantic, it isn’t, I am afraid.
Politics has shifted, irrevocably, from left/centre & right/centre to identities. Liberal v traditional identities (For want of a better word or phrase). There are many people who would not vote for a politician such as Biden, Saunders, Obama, and etc. no matter who was up against them, or no matter how incompetent. They do not buy into this type of politics. They never will. That is why they are sticking with Trumpalot, and will continue to do so.
Whether their numbers are enough to get him back in is another matter altogether.
We have had a very similar argument here over Brexit. The people who were diehard Remainers and EU supporters simply could not understand why the majority who voted to leave did so. They still don’t. As long as they continue in this blind manner, they will continue to lose. That is the danger with liberals in your country.
Never forget what motivates ordinary citizens. The only constant motto in politics that ever matters. |
I generally avoid posting here because these days I tend to get easily upset. However, I felt I needed to comment on the sentence I bolded in the previous post. Does it mean than none of 48% of people who voted remain in the Brexit referendum or of those millions who voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016 were "ordinary citizens", concerned about how to put food on the table? From my own experience, a lot of people who voted Remain or dislike the current US administration are also "ordinary citizens", not members of the dreaded "elite class". One of them is my husband, but he's not the only one - far from that. There also much more nuance in the beliefs of the "other side" than supporters of the current administration and their ilk would have you believe. For instance, not everyone who is on the progressive side of things (politically, not musically ) is a rabid fan of "cancel culture" and similar things. I know I am not. |
Very quickly, yes of course many were ordinary citizens, and most perfectly nice, reasonable people. A lot of the noise made about it, though, was most certainly not by ordinary citizens. The point I was making is that there is a constituency of ordinary citizens who loathe identity politics, and I believe they are in the majority.
I also very much agree with you that many progressive people are not fans of cancel culture and etc. I should know. I am one of them too!
It is always difficult when we deal in generalisations on Internet forum posts, and I am no better or worse than anyone else in this regard.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: August 22 2020 at 04:06 |
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If I may...my view is it is past time for supporters of either Trump or Boris to keep asking for libs to listen. Well, you have had your electoral victories and you have gloated plenty over it. Now it's time for you too to listen to the objections of the other side to see if some of them are valid and not dismiss all of it as mere 'coastal'/smug elitism. That is if there is a vestige of sincerity on the side of Trump/Boris supporters. If there is none and hating on the libs is the no.1 priority (as opposed to the restoration of past glory that Trump/Boris promised), it's just a reckless nihilistic game of mutually assured destruction and we can carry on with this until its, well, logical conclusion.
Edited by rogerthat - August 22 2020 at 04:07
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Man With Hat
Collaborator
Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team
Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
Status: Offline
Points: 166183
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Posted: August 22 2020 at 13:43 |
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^ That plan certainly wont work in Trump's America.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: August 23 2020 at 05:36 |
micky wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
I was pleasantly surprised by the Biden speech. I know it's with a prompter and all but the delivery and the substance was welcome respite from the lecturing tone many of his Democrat peers frequently descend into. He conceded more to the Left than was expected but that may have been a calculated risk to enthuse the base. |
first votes.. and those coming in the two most important.. ie if Trump loses them.. he loses.. states come in less than 4 weeks
I think he sealed it last night... slow old Joe.. he blew that out of the water in the minds of the very few that might have been undecided... and with the Trump assist of the whole Postal fiasco hitting the older voters hardest.
It is time to start writing the obit.. it's over... |
Going by the polls, it's still not going to be a big win for Biden IF he wins. But the key factor is his 5+ point lead in four states - MI, WI, PA and FL. If he wins those four, he can lose MN and NH and still win. Not bigly, but enough to get past the halfway mark, which is all that matters. Between now and Nov, Trump needs for margins to narrow in these four states, else he loses. Arizona is still very much in play too and OH and NC are still toss-ups. But Iowa is likely gone and Texas and Georgia aren't happening either.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: August 23 2020 at 08:42 |
forget the national polls... it is pure math.. and the brutal reality for Republicans. they have a very narrow path to win. Trump needed a straight flush to win in 2016... and things are vastly different in 2020 than they were in 2016.
there a bunch of toss up states.. Trump has to win every single one of them to win.. yet unlike 2016 toss ups.. these tosss ups are not homogeneous states.. ie ..playing to one regional demographic could flip them all and thus an election. He is in trouble across the spectrum.. in the midwest, southwest, and southeast. If he plays to white working class.. and yet loses another demographic.. he loses
in short
and if they don't win Florida.. they don't win.. and if he has indeed lost seniors.. and less than a month from the beginning of voting there..as it appears he has... he has not done anything to improve his standing with them. Biden didn't sh*t the bed. and his postal play talked to the meatheads.. but hurts the oldest voters hardest.
without Floridahe isn't winning... yet Biden can still lose it and win easily.. that is the difference between 2020 and 2016.. thus the starting of the obits.. will it be a large electoral victory.. or a routine one. Depends. That is where Biden fumbles might play in.. perhaps keeping Iowa, Wisconsin and Ohio from flipping.. but he has done so much damage with the Hispanic and elderly that he isn't going to hold on to Arizona or Florida.. and since his campaign has already written off Michigan.. and Pennsylvania is Trump pipe dream to win. It is academic unless that asteroid is bigger and meaner than they are telling us.
It is 2020 you know.. it ain't over till its over..but there isn't a plausible reason or any hint of date that suggest Trump can win .. just the ghosts of 2016.. but this election. .and our electorate is very different in 2020 so the comparisons don't wash
so baring the absolute batsh*t crazy ..at this point.. the only question is how big the margin of victory and does the Senate flip.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10266
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Posted: August 23 2020 at 09:25 |
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I would like to mention something. The mere fact that the media find it noteworthy that Biden named a black woman as candidate for vice president is living proof that racism and sexism are still very much alive. If it were not neither her gender nor her skin colour would be worth mentioning. The worst thing about this is that most people are not even aware how incredibly racist and sexist this is.
Edited by BaldFriede - August 23 2020 at 13:44
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: August 23 2020 at 09:31 |
in a perfect world Friede.. but it doesn't take the fact this was considered noteworthy to tell us we do not live in a perfect world
perfection is nothing more than masturbation.. it is fantasy.. it isn't real.
I'll simply be happy with progress.. and it was not just for blacks.. but south asians.. good article I read yesterday. Less than 50 years ago you could count the south asian immigrants in this country on a couple of hands.. now they are the fasting growing ethnic group in this country.. and now a couple of a couple of months away from being a heartbeat away from the Oval Office.
that is not perfection.. that is change.. that is progress...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10266
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Posted: August 23 2020 at 09:37 |
micky wrote:
in a perfect world Friede.. but it doesn't take the fact this was considered noteworthy to tell us we do not live in a perfect world
perfection is nothing more than masturbation.. it is fantasy.. it isn't real.
I'll simply be happy with progress.. and it was not just for blacks.. but south asians.. good article I read yesterday. Less than 50 years ago you could count the south asian immigrants in this country on a couple of hands.. now they are the fasting growing ethnic group in this country.. and now a couple of a couple of months away from being a heartbeat away from the Oval Office.
that is not perfection.. that is change.. that is progress... |
No, it is not progress at all; it is stagnation. Progress would be not to mention it. Period.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: August 23 2020 at 09:39 |
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bullsh*t...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10266
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Posted: August 23 2020 at 09:41 |
micky wrote:
bullsh*t... |
As I said, most people aren't aware of it. Apparently including you.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: August 23 2020 at 12:54 |
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BaldFriede: Full on correct!
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65597
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Posted: August 23 2020 at 15:16 |
BaldFriede wrote:
I would like to mention something. The mere fact that the media find it noteworthy that Biden named a black woman as candidate for vice president is living proof that racism and sexism are still very much alive. If it were not neither her gender nor her skin colour would be worth mentioning. The worst thing about this is that most people are not even aware how incredibly racist and sexist this is.
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My mother was an active and important feminist all through the 60s, 70s, & 80s.
You don't know what you're talking about.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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The American Politics Thread