A health care question...

Rob, be totally honest here.
Do you really think I wish something bad would happen to Mr Llama, or do you think I was making a point about lack of experience lends itself to a lack of sympathy.
Be honest.

Epignosis wrote: CCVP wrote: Epignosis wrote: Easy Money wrote: thellama73 wrote: Easy Money wrote: thellama73 wrote: I don't see how a profit based health care system will always leave out the sick if they can pay for their treatments. and what is your preferred scenario if they can't pay for their treatments? The same as my scenario for people who can't pay their rent, or for their car, or for anything else in life. They find some family member, friend or charity willing to help them, or they don't get it. I know this is considered as an evil view point by some of you, but I don't see why doctor's services should be any different than any other service. If you perform a service, people should pay you for it, and the market should determine the price. I'm sorry, but I can't help but hope this happens to you someday, some have to learn the hard way. I really like you John, but I'm sorry, that's a dick thing to say, and it's exactly what Jim was saying earlier. You don't wish ill on someone just because you want them to learn a political lesson.  Boo.    Robert, this is not a politics, this is survival. On previous pages, people asked if it would be OK to give away food for those who can't buy it; in the USA that may be irrelevant, because very few people actually die of starvation, but here in Brazil people actually die of starvation and guess what? the government gives food away.   To think the human life is a matter of politics is quite frightening to me. Our government gives away food too, and health care if you can't afford it.  It's called "Medicaid."  See, we already have this stuff.  If you paid any attention to anything I've said in this thread, you will know that my position is not to deny life-saving medical care to anyone. What I criticized in this post was the attitude, "I kinda hope you get sick and are poor so you can learn a lesson," especially coming from an admin.  Bad form.

Edited by CCVP - March 25 2010 at 21:46

Is this discussion still going on?  I'm beginning to get sick. 

Slartibartfast wrote: Is this discussion still going on?  I'm beginning to get sick.

Easy Money wrote: Rob, be totally honest here. Do you really think I wish something bad would happen to Mr Llama, or do you think I was making a point about lack of experience lends itself to a lack of sympathy. Be honest.

When Mr. Llama said people with guns come to the door for taxes, was he making a point or was he being "evil" and "less than human?"

This is what I'm getting at, John.  I know you better than this.  We all say stupid sh*t.  I know I do.  And a political debate leads us to lose our cool.  I get that! 

One problem though is that you bickered with Jim about people getting away with saying unacceptable things, what, yesterday or the day before, and here you are saying something atrocious, and now trying to justify it.

I guarantee you that had someone else said the very thing you did to a member of the opposite political persuasion, he would have been reported and dealt with immediately.  It's not cool.

OK, I post this in all sincerity:
Mr Llama, I do not wish any ill will on you at all, previous discussions with you have always been pleasant, I have nothing against you at all.
My statement was needlessly inflammatory and it derailed the conversation and for that i apologize to all members of PA.

CCVP wrote: Epignosis wrote: CCVP wrote: Epignosis wrote: Easy Money wrote: thellama73 wrote: Easy Money wrote: thellama73 wrote: I don't see how a profit based health care system will always leave out the sick if they can pay for their treatments. and what is your preferred scenario if they can't pay for their treatments? The same as my scenario for people who can't pay their rent, or for their car, or for anything else in life. They find some family member, friend or charity willing to help them, or they don't get it. I know this is considered as an evil view point by some of you, but I don't see why doctor's services should be any different than any other service. If you perform a service, people should pay you for it, and the market should determine the price. I'm sorry, but I can't help but hope this happens to you someday, some have to learn the hard way. I really like you John, but I'm sorry, that's a dick thing to say, and it's exactly what Jim was saying earlier. You don't wish ill on someone just because you want them to learn a political lesson.  Boo.    Robert, this is not a politics, this is survival. On previous pages, people asked if it would be OK to give away food for those who can't buy it; in the USA that may be irrelevant, because very few people actually die of starvation, but here in Brazil people actually die of starvation and guess what? the government gives food away.   To think the human life is a matter of politics is quite frightening to me. Our government gives away food too, and health care if you can't afford it.  It's called "Medicaid."  See, we already have this stuff.  If you paid any attention to anything I've said in this thread, you will know that my position is not to deny life-saving medical care to anyone. What I criticized in this post was the attitude, "I kinda hope you get sick and are poor so you can learn a lesson," especially coming from an admin.  Bad form.    Oh, sorry. The thread is so big that it is becoming hard to follow even thoug i am constantly f5-ing.   OK, but what about me? I can affort normal healthcare, but you see, I have epilepsy. The drugs I need to take 4 times a day are obcenelly costful. It is not an emergency, because the convulsions manifest themselves at random, but it can take my life: I could easily be walking down the street, have a convulsion and then a car would hit me (this actually almost happened, because I had it for the first time wile going to the beach; luckyly I was with my friends and nothing serious happened). And what if that happened when I am driving? I would not only endanger myself, but others around me.   If I lived in the USA I would have to take this from my pocket and believe me, buying them would make one hell of a difference. I would definitely have the help denied from any healthcare plan because the disease only manifested itself last year. Then what should I do: pay over 1 thousand dollars per week to keep living a normal life (without governmet  subvention) or pay 15 dollars per week (with government  subvention)?   I much like the second option.

Of course you like the second option, but all those who'd have to pay for you wouldn't.

Listen, I'm not defending our health care situation as it is.  However, I do not support the current health care reform.  I believe in a feasible middle road here.

Easy Money wrote: OK, I post this in all sincerity: Mr Llama, I do not wish any ill will on you at all, previous discussions with you have always been pleasant, I have nothing against you at all. My statement was needlessly inflammatory and it derailed the conversation and for that i apologize to all members of PA.

Why how gracious of you! Thank you.

For the record, I was not offended by your comment, and I can understand why you would say it. Also for the record, I do not wish ill on poor people. I do not want them to get sick and die. I very much want them to be healthy and happy. If they cannot afford a doctor, I think it is very sad, but I think a society that offers cradle to grave entitlements is sadder. Thirdly for the record, I think soldiers who serve the country should absolutely be taken care of, and your son's situation is tragic and wrong.

I'd like to recount a quick anecdote from my own life to illustrate my viewpoint. There was once a time when people were reluctant to accept charity, because they were ashamed of not being able to stand on their own two feet. When the record store where I used to work went out of business, I saw the reaction of my coworkers. One might expect them to get busy looking for other work, so they could maintain their standard of living. Instead, almost all of them eagerly rejoiced about being able to go on welfare and get paid for doing nothing, already coming up with ways to game the system. I spoke to one of them recently. She has been on welfare for almost a year and hasn't even looked for another job. Why bother, when the government picks up the tab? This kind of attitude sickens me, and I hate to think that we continue to encourage it.

P.S. The pizza was delicious.


Edited by thellama73 - March 25 2010 at 22:13

jammun wrote: Epignosis wrote: harmonium.ro wrote: Epignosis wrote: With excellent PPO medical coverage through my former employer (taking $600 a month out of my paycheck), we still had to shell out $7000 to pay for the birth of our son, which we are not done paying for yet, and that was two years ago. Is that how high the cost of health insurance is in the States? f**k wow. I've never had a 600 dollars salary even at my highest, and it was in a country of the EU (one of the poorer ones though, not France). This is incredible. Think about those figures.  $600 a month equals $7200.  Unless you get incredibly ill or injured, you will not even pay half that in doctor's bills.  That's why I say insurance is a sucker bet.  Companies sell you with the big "What if this happens?"  And now I'm like, "Well what if I could shoot lightning from my ass?"  Yeah something bad could happen, but so what?  Life is a big damn gamble, and you can't live your life hedging all of your bets.  Health insurance is profiting from fear. Yes, let's think about those figures.  For us old farts, a colonoscopy runs $3000.  It's not related at all to being incredibly ill or injured...it's about trying to avoid being incredibly ill or injured, i.e., preventive maintenance.  Yes, we can all skip that colonoscopy, at which time if we're on the wrong end of things, colon-wise, well we will be shooting lighting from our asses and it'll cost a hell of a lot more to fix it, if it's fixable at all.    I remember way back when...either '70s or '80s.  The governor of Colorado...can't recall his name now...caused an uproar by suggesting that if we wanted to really cut the total cost of health care we should just deny it to anyone over 65 years old.  At the time, and I suspect this is still true, something like 90% of a person's total lifetime health care costs were incurred during the last year of his/her life.  It's a great argument, almost makes sense, unless it's your grandmother that's dying.

And this is precisely why our insurance model is crappy.  For-profit health care can be done reasonably, but I think the middle man of insurance (and insane malpractice requirements among a few other things), makes it unreasonable.

Also, the elderly shouldn't be seen as a burden.  After all, we're here because of them.


Edited by Epignosis - March 25 2010 at 22:22

Epignosis wrote: jammun wrote: Epignosis wrote: harmonium.ro wrote: Epignosis wrote: With excellent PPO medical coverage through my former employer (taking $600 a month out of my paycheck), we still had to shell out $7000 to pay for the birth of our son, which we are not done paying for yet, and that was two years ago. Is that how high the cost of health insurance is in the States? f**k wow. I've never had a 600 dollars salary even at my highest, and it was in a country of the EU (one of the poorer ones though, not France). This is incredible. Think about those figures.  $600 a month equals $7200.  Unless you get incredibly ill or injured, you will not even pay half that in doctor's bills.  That's why I say insurance is a sucker bet.  Companies sell you with the big "What if this happens?"  And now I'm like, "Well what if I could shoot lightning from my ass?"  Yeah something bad could happen, but so what?  Life is a big damn gamble, and you can't live your life hedging all of your bets.  Health insurance is profiting from fear. Yes, let's think about those figures.  For us old farts, a colonoscopy runs $3000.  It's not related at all to being incredibly ill or injured...it's about trying to avoid being incredibly ill or injured, i.e., preventive maintenance.  Yes, we can all skip that colonoscopy, at which time if we're on the wrong end of things, colon-wise, well we will be shooting lighting from our asses and it'll cost a hell of a lot more to fix it, if it's fixable at all.    I remember way back when...either '70s or '80s.  The governor of Colorado...can't recall his name now...caused an uproar by suggesting that if we wanted to really cut the total cost of health care we should just deny it to anyone over 65 years old.  At the time, and I suspect this is still true, something like 90% of a person's total lifetime health care costs were incurred during the last year of his/her life.  It's a great argument, almost makes sense, unless it's your grandmother that's dying.     And this is precisely why our insurance model is crappy.  For-profit health care can be done reasonably, but I think the middle man of insurance (and insane malpractice requirements among a few other things), makes it unreasonable. Also, the elderly shouldn't be seen as a burden.  After all, we're here because of them.