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ProgBagel
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2819
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 14:32 |
explodingjosh wrote:
ProgBagel wrote:
No care for them at all... They seem to be a pretty overrated band to me. Tool is the only band that takes 3-5 years between albums that still contains 3-5 useless filler tracks. And cut the crap out of lyrical content...their just high beyond belief. I love when people try to make sense of their lyrics. And tell me their playing in 33/22 time...ugh! |
Well that was a 'useless post' comment.
If you enjoy an interesting drummer, I'd reccommend Tool, or any of the Adrian Belew solo "Sides" with Danney Carey.
Guess what... I make alot of sense out of ther lyics. They're actually pretty straight forward. |
Actually, it was a pretty decent argument and you answered it with a useless post.
I find Danney Carey interesting and the bassist too...actually, I adore him.
Also, I think the lyrics are straightfoward, but I took a quote out of a review for the album...shows how people take these straightforward lyrics and turn them into something there not.
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Last remarkable song of Aenima is its title track. The lyrics of “Aenima” are about Southern California being all washed beneath the surface of the sea after some kind of disaster. It seems like Maynard James Keenan hates LA and wants to flush it all away. If we look deeper at what’s behind those lyrics is seems to me that the band is just outing its disapproval of the “emptiness” we have in our lives today. The more we work, the more we have, the less our lives become worth. We should go “back to basics” some times to really take the most out of our lives and learn how to estimate its true value again."
How did he come up with that?...I would really, really like to know.
Edited by ProgBagel - August 21 2007 at 14:33
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jimidom
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 02 2007
Location: Houston, TX USA
Status: Offline
Points: 570
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 14:37 |
I don't get where those lyrics come from either, but I love Tool's music. My favorite song from Aenima is "H".
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Online
Points: 35817
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 14:54 |
Tool is not something you get into, you must let Tool get into you. A wrenching experience. Tool doesn't turn me on either, but I do respect the band never-the-less. If a band doesn't click, I tend to just move on. There are lots of bands that don't do it for me in the archives. As to whether or not they're Prog, it depends on how Prog is defined. There's lots of music I love at this site, and not on this site, considered to be part of the "Prog" categories represented here that I wouldn't strictly define as Prog (progressive music, sure, but not purist Prog -- music that is embraced by many under the Prog umbrella...). Try TAAL instead (if you haven't already).
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explodingjosh
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 10 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 507
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 16:55 |
ProgBagel wrote:
explodingjosh wrote:
ProgBagel wrote:
No care for them at all... They seem to be a pretty overrated band to me. Tool is the only band that takes 3-5 years between albums that still contains 3-5 useless filler tracks. And cut the crap out of lyrical content...their just high beyond belief. I love when people try to make sense of their lyrics. And tell me their playing in 33/22 time...ugh! |
Well that was a 'useless post' comment.
If you enjoy an interesting drummer, I'd reccommend Tool, or any of the Adrian Belew solo "Sides" with Danney Carey.
Guess what... I make alot of sense out of ther lyics. They're actually pretty straight forward. |
Actually, it was a pretty decent argument and you answered it with a useless post.
I find Danney Carey interesting and the bassist too...actually, I adore him.
Also, I think the lyrics are straightfoward, but I took a quote out of a review for the album...shows how people take these straightforward lyrics and turn them into something there not. " Last remarkable song of Aenima is its title track. The lyrics of “Aenima” are about Southern California being all washed beneath the surface of the sea after some kind of disaster. It seems like Maynard James Keenan hates LA and wants to flush it all away. If we look deeper at what’s behind those lyrics is seems to me that the band is just outing its disapproval of the “emptiness” we have in our lives today. The more we work, the more we have, the less our lives become worth. We should go “back to basics” some times to really take the most out of our lives and learn how to estimate its true value again."
How did he come up with that?...I would really, really like to know.
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Thinking, probably. He took the lyrics and the message and applied it to his view of the world, or atleast LA. Nothing wrong with that, I would actually argue that what he did is better than taking the lyrics literally. He's applying ideas, he may be in the minority as far as lyrical interpretations go, because I think MJK just hates LA and loves Bill Hicks' comedy, but music is subjective, to each his own I guess.
In all honesty, meinmatrix, I believe Tool is a very talented bass made of 4 very talented musicians who take musical cues mostly from King Crimson and grunge alternative, a genre in which Tool were created. IMO they are about as melodic as 90s/2000s King Crimson as well, which is, not very melodic at all. I think that they are sometimes hated on because of their popularity, and their sketchy fanbase, which are awful reasons not to explore or enjoy a band. I would suggest reading the reviews on 10k days, Lateralus and AEnema to see why people do or do not like this band, but don't let it influence your opinion juust yet. Then take the time to sit and listen without prejudice, but also kind of have in mind the reasons (gimmicks?) why other poeple enjoy this music. If you have dedicated a good amount of time listening to the albums to see if they resonate with you, and at the same time listened for the things that most people enjoy about Tool, and you still don't enjoy the band, then that's all you can do. You've done the proper work needed to deeply enjoy the music, and its all up to brain chemistry and subjectivity in taste (e.g. 'no melody') from that point on. No need to force yourself to enjoy anything, that is pretense.
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magnus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 19 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 865
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:00 |
ProgBagel wrote:
explodingjosh wrote:
ProgBagel wrote:
No care for them at all... They seem to be a pretty overrated band to me. Tool is the only band that takes 3-5 years between albums that still contains 3-5 useless filler tracks. And cut the crap out of lyrical content...their just high beyond belief. I love when people try to make sense of their lyrics. And tell me their playing in 33/22 time...ugh! |
Well that was a 'useless post' comment.
If you enjoy an interesting drummer, I'd reccommend Tool, or any of the Adrian Belew solo "Sides" with Danney Carey.
Guess what... I make alot of sense out of ther lyics. They're actually pretty straight forward. |
Actually, it was a pretty decent argument and you answered it with a useless post.
I find Danney Carey interesting and the bassist too...actually, I adore him.
Also, I think the lyrics are straightfoward, but I took a quote out of a review for the album...shows how people take these straightforward lyrics and turn them into something there not.
"
Last remarkable song of Aenima is its title track. The lyrics of “Aenima” are about Southern California being all washed beneath the surface of the sea after some kind of disaster. It seems like Maynard James Keenan hates LA and wants to flush it all away. If we look deeper at what’s behind those lyrics is seems to me that the band is just outing its disapproval of the “emptiness” we have in our lives today. The more we work, the more we have, the less our lives become worth. We should go “back to basics” some times to really take the most out of our lives and learn how to estimate its true value again."
How did he come up with that?...I would really, really like to know.
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Seems to me your hate for Tool lies with their fans, not the actual music...
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The scattered jigsaw of my redemption laid out before my eyes
Each piece as amorphous as the other - Each piece in its lack of shape a lie
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explodingjosh
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 10 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 507
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:02 |
Oh, meinmatrix, if you wanna hear something melodic and (IMO) absolutely gorgeous, listen to the guitar solos in Parabola. I get goosebumps eveytime I hear them.
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ProgBagel
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2819
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:20 |
magnus wrote:
ProgBagel wrote:
explodingjosh wrote:
ProgBagel wrote:
No care for them at all... They seem to be a pretty overrated band to me. Tool is the only band that takes 3-5 years between albums that still contains 3-5 useless filler tracks. And cut the crap out of lyrical content...their just high beyond belief. I love when people try to make sense of their lyrics. And tell me their playing in 33/22 time...ugh! |
Well that was a 'useless post' comment.
If you enjoy an interesting drummer, I'd reccommend Tool, or any of the Adrian Belew solo "Sides" with Danney Carey.
Guess what... I make alot of sense out of ther lyics. They're actually pretty straight forward. |
Actually, it was a pretty decent argument and you answered it with a useless post.
I find Danney Carey interesting and the bassist too...actually, I adore him.
Also, I think the lyrics are straightfoward, but I took a quote out of a review for the album...shows how people take these straightforward lyrics and turn them into something there not.
"
Last remarkable song of Aenima is its title track. The lyrics of “Aenima” are about Southern California being all washed beneath the surface of the sea after some kind of disaster. It seems like Maynard James Keenan hates LA and wants to flush it all away. If we look deeper at what’s behind those lyrics is seems to me that the band is just outing its disapproval of the “emptiness” we have in our lives today. The more we work, the more we have, the less our lives become worth. We should go “back to basics” some times to really take the most out of our lives and learn how to estimate its true value again."
How did he come up with that?...I would really, really like to know.
| Seems to me your hate for Tool lies with their fans, not the actual music... |
Well I already mentioned the useless filler tracks but I'll put it this way, Tool makes some great songs, just not great albums.
If they put out a greatest hits album, or even combine the good songs from two albums together it would be 5 stars.
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GoldenSpiral
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3839
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:22 |
A couple years ago when I first started here at this site, there was a thread exactly like this one in which someone said that Tool is not prog and there's no way to prove that they are. I then went to the 'Definition of Progressive Rock' page on PA, copied and pasted, and then listed ways in which Tool fulfills every single one of the aspects of progressive music listed here. Since there's about 4 million threads just like this, I cant find that post, but it's there. trust me.
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:26 |
Pointless thread that should be closed.
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explodingjosh
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 10 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 507
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:34 |
I think the closest thing to a "Greatest Hits" we might ever get from Tool is a live album or DVD. I think (hope) they're one of the few bands out there who would never release a GH album. They (Maynard especially) seem too delibrately non-commercial for that.
Speaking of commercial, what do you guys think of their shows? I've been to two, and they were both "greatest hits ever meets some new songs from 10k days" ... I would've much rather enjoyed an "experience" show, complete with improvs and a unique setlist. The performance was powerful, tho.
....maybe there's a tool appr. thread in which I can yap about them
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: hell
Status: Offline
Points: 28427
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:53 |
GoldenSpiral wrote:
A couple years ago when I first started here at this site, there was a thread exactly like this one in which someone said that Tool is not prog and there's no way to prove that they are.
I then went to the 'Definition of Progressive Rock' page on PA, copied and pasted, and then listed ways in which Tool fulfills every single one of the aspects of progressive music listed here.
Since there's about 4 million threads just like this, I cant find that post, but it's there.
trust me.
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Here:
GoldenSpiral wrote:
The Following are -quotes/not necessarily universal characteristics- from the "Prog Rock?" definition page:
let's have a look, shall we....?
"Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with
intricate melodies and harmonies that require repeated listening to
grasp."
Tool's songs are epics in their own
right, they average over 7 minutes, "Third Eye" on Aenima is over 13
minutes. The songs "Disposition" "Reflection" and "Triad" on
Lateralus were originally conceived as one song, but later split.
together they add up to over 20 minutes.
"Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives,
covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion,
war, love, and madness."
Umm..... listen to Lateralus or Aenima. they lyrics are quite dense, but are more metaphysical then storytelling.
"Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play."
Lateralus and Aenima could each be
argued as a concept album, but loosely as in a DSOTM sort of
concept. Not all prog bands need concept albums anyway.
"Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant."
Maynard has an unusual vocal style. if you cannot hear that, try listening.
"Prominent use of electronic instrumentation — particularly keyboard
instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog
synthesizer..."
Not all prog bands use these, but a good portion of Danny Carey's drum set is electronic, plus he uses tabla drums.
"Use of unusual time signatures, scales, or tunings. Many pieces use
multiple time signatures and/or tempi, sometimes concurrently. Solo
passages for virtually every instrument, designed to showcase the
virtuosity of the player."
While Tool does not generally indulge
in outright displays of virtuosity, they CERTAINLY use unusual time
signatures. Take the RADIO SINGLE "Scism" for example, which is
in 12/8 time comprised of alternating measures of 5/8 and 7/8.
Their other RADIO SINGLE "Lateralus" features a 3-measure chorus riff
in which each measure progresses from 9/8 to 8/8 to 7/8. These
are only 2 examples out of many.
"Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start
their concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite..."
So they dont draw from classical influences directly. so what?
"An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by
The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the
prog heyday."
This is one of the aspects of prog
Tool does best. The guitarist Adam Jones does the art direction
for each album himself, often contributing his own work. the
Lateralus art was done by artist Alex Grey, whose other works were
featured during Tool's performances on the Lateralus tour.
Ask yourself how many of these apply to Tool. Yes, as the person I
have quoted has asked, do please check the definition page. I've
attempted to play devil's advocate in an unbias
way in response to a Tool-fan - and that is all.
ALL OF THEM APPLY TO TOOL.
any thing else I can help you with? |
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66264
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 18:31 |
I am also a member of the "Tool is prog??? camp". I seem to be finding a lot of bands on PA lately that don't seem like prog to me but have been brought under the umbrella. I think that it is a matter of where my central point is on the prog charts. I am by no means a Tool expert. My exposure to date is 10,000 Days and Undertow. I agree with the grunge label but I don't see the prog label from my tastes. I got Undertow when it first came out and I really didn't know what to make of it at the time. I guess "good grunge" but I preferred Pearl Jam/Soundgarden. Since joining PA, I did purchase 10,000 Days, and I have also picked up a couple of their other albums but I have not had the chance to listen to them yet, so I suppose my opinion could still change.
I borrowed Meshuggah's Catch-33 from my local library to give them a listen. To me this was some of the most god-awful noise I had ever heard. (sorry not constructive but my first opinion on a band that I have seen as highly recommended by some on this website).
For me Opeth has been a third disappointment for me in regards to ProgArchives' recommendations. The music and clean vocals are really good, but I for one cannot get past the death growls or "cookie monster" vocals. They just ruin the whole experience for me.
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zvinki
Forum Groupie
Joined: October 06 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 53
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 19:56 |
Tool has given me hope that you can still be successful and popular by making music on your own tems, just like our prog heroes in the 70's. The secret, like back then, is that you have to be very very good at it to stand out from the crowd.
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t d wombat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 14 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 504
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 21:12 |
From what I've heard thus far, and that is limited, bands like Tool and The Mars Volta are a bit to thashy bass and drums for my tastes. By that I simply mean I find the dominance of the bass and drums obscures anything else. That is said from the perspective of an old fart who readily acknowledges that as he's aged his taste in music has mellowed somewhat.
My nephew , who is a big fan of both T and TMV, has suggested I start with a track called "Third Eye".
Any thoughts ??
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explodingjosh
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 10 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 507
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 22:35 |
t d wombat wrote:
From what I've heard thus far, and that is limited, bands like Tool and The Mars Volta are a bit to thashy bass and drums for my tastes. By that I simply mean I find the dominance of the bass and drums obscures anything else. That is said from the perspective of an old fart who readily acknowledges that as he's aged his taste in music has mellowed somewhat.
My nephew , who is a big fan of both T and TMV, has suggested I start with a track called "Third Eye".
Any thoughts ?? |
"Third Eye" is a great track, but is not at all mellow, its pretty much a powerhouse track ending in a polyrithmic crash and bang. I would recommend "Disposition", "Reflection" and "The Patient" from Lateralus. The Patient is very ... patient, slow and mellow but it crescendos about halfway through into their heavier sound.... it might actually be a good track to get you more comfortable with their heavyness, since it's tastefully used. I would also recommend "Intension" and "Right in Two" from 10k days, but Right in Two behaves like The Patient. IMO all very enjoyable.
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t d wombat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 14 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 504
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Posted: August 21 2007 at 22:58 |
explodingjosh wrote:
"Third Eye" is a great track, but is not at all mellow, its pretty much a powerhouse track ending in a polyrithmic crash and bang. I would recommend "Disposition", "Reflection" and "The Patient" from Lateralus. The Patient is very ... patient, slow and mellow but it crescendos about halfway through into their heavier sound.... it might actually be a good track to get you more comfortable with their heavyness, since it's tastefully used.
I would also recommend "Intension" and "Right in Two" from 10k days, but Right in Two behaves like The Patient.
IMO all very enjoyable.
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Thanks for the info. So it looks like Lateralus is the album to start off with. Let's see how we go.
Zounds !! Listening to The Patient as I type. Probably a tad heavy for these tired old ears to really get into but wow, this almost makes me want to be young again. No doubt it's good stuff.
Edited by t d wombat - August 21 2007 at 23:17
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mrcozdude
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 25 2007
Location: Devon,UK.
Status: Offline
Points: 2078
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Posted: August 22 2007 at 00:22 |
I feel like i should like them considering their charcteristics ,but i cant. Their cover of no quarter was pretty decent though there is a chord which sounds disgusting on it which almost ruins it.
I think my problem is the vocals though i respect them musicaly i think i just find them a bit dull & cliched
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puma
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 15 2007
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 484
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Posted: August 22 2007 at 02:35 |
It's all about context. If you sit around listening to Yes and King Crimson and Van der Graaf and you hear Tool, I don't blame you for not being impressed. But in the context of alternative rock (which is what I have always defined Tool as), that's where they shine. I heard them on an alt-rock radio station in Boston, WFNX, and I heard Schism lodged between an Alice in Chains song and a Smashing Pumpkins song 5 years ago. Needless to say I was shocked at how different they sounded and how much I liked it. I feel like there's a lot to like about their music. It's not the most melodic thing you'll ever hear, but hey, we're not all Jethro Tull over here. They're a very passionate band who care about the experience. They are a band where you have to turn it up loud and pay attention, and then the "filler" tracks make sense in the album's context. You can hear the love they put in their music and the care they put into making it an experience for the listener, something that 99% of bands that receive heavy radio airplay do not do. I hate to sound like a fanboy because I'm not, but I think Tool's positives far outweigh their negatives.
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queenlerxst
Forum Groupie
Joined: June 17 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 84
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Posted: August 22 2007 at 13:10 |
Most of the Tool fans I know HATE progressive rock or any complex music.
I don't know what that says about Tool's music....
...actually, I can see why they fall in the prog category, and as much as I respect them, they don't really do anything for me. Though they do have neat music videos.
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Mikerinos
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Planet Gong
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Points: 8890
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Posted: August 22 2007 at 14:12 |
Tool to me are OK, but they are merely a small planet in an endless universe of music So basically what I'm saying is if you don't like them, simply check out other stuff instead. Even if you DO like them, check out other stuff as well. Progressive music is about progressing music taste as well (at least it is to me)
Edited by Bluesaga - August 22 2007 at 14:13
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