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Krautrock |
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Hosydi ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: December 25 2024 Location: Rolling Hills Status: Offline Points: 1163 |
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15355 |
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According to Wikipedia, the term "kosmische Musik" was coined originally by Edgar Froese and referred the kind of soundscapes Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Ash Ra Tempel and others came up with. Label manager Rolf-Ulrich Kaiser used it more generally to market German artists on his new labels, but I don't think it was ever in broad use for general influential German bands; "kosmisch" as a term would fit some early German material but for sure not all. Some of Kaiser's business practices meant that the term went out of fashion rather quickly; at least most important musicians associated with it distanced themselves from it around 1973. The term has been used internationally later by some people pretty much synonymously to Krautrock (also acknowledging the pejorative origins of the Krautrock label), but in Germany itself it was dead in the water by the mid 1970s.
Edited by Lewian - January 20 2025 at 03:08 |
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kirk782 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 06 2024 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 241 |
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What would be the ideal diving point into Popul Vuh's discography or one should just listen from the debut? Regarding German films, and this is off topic, but I really liked Fritz Lang though he worked in the halcyon silent era.
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kirk782 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 06 2024 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 241 |
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I think Faust took this term in a positive manner when they named one of their songs from their Faust IV LP, I think after the genre.
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Hosydi ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: December 25 2024 Location: Rolling Hills Status: Offline Points: 1163 |
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Then the pejorativeness of the term was lost, and krautrock denoted only bands like Can, Kraftwerk, Neu!, La Düsseldorf, Popol Vuh, and so on, while German minimalistic electronic music artists with heavy use of sequencers and spacey atmosphere, such as the aforementioned Tangerine Dream or Klaus Schulze, got the tag "Berlin School."
Today, krautrock is synonymous with motorik psych, characterized by repetitive patterns and a minimalistic approach to music, and contemporary bands use it as a tag among other tags in favor of describing their music. |
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cstack3 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 7490 |
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^Brillliant, M! I am a huge fan of Werner Herzog, Klaus Kinski and the entire cinema movement they founded!!
Kraut Rock bands like Popul Vuh were instrumental to the amazing atmosphere conveyed by these films!
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18385 |
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Hi, It is a vast umbrella, specially as this did not just happen in rock music(and some jazz) in that country. Film, Theater and Literature were also a part of the whole thing, and I guess we never saw/heard Werner Herzog and Wim Wenders filming some of this stuff way back when, and then using actors in complete improvisational ways just like a lot of the early music ... it lost this improvisation later as it got more commercially accepted and started selling. The tough part is folks not realizing that this was not just a music thing ... and I'm not sure that this "thing" will get respect as long as the rest of it is denied. I often say that there is little difference between Damo Suzuki and Klaus Kinski (specially early days!!!) ... in their work ... they got into it and went on non-stop with some scary stories by Werner Herzog in the film "My Friend" about KK. It's tough to think of the idea that folks in Germany were too stupid to not know what the rest of the arts were doing at the same time. And they were all their friends, and neighbors ... !!!
Edited by moshkito - January 17 2025 at 19:33 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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cstack3 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 7490 |
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I've also read that ("Krautrock" as a somewhat derisive term). Hmmmm....has anyone ever used the term "Yank Rock?" Kansas, Styx etc.?
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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
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cstack3 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 7490 |
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Really good question, and welcome to PA! I look forward to the answers that forum members provide, as I have often had the same questions!! And now, for some Amon Duul II!! I love this song! |
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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18385 |
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Hi, This is all clearly explained and shown in the book "Future Days" that shows several areas and what their ability/talent was ... and they were all different.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15355 |
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Kraftwerk, Neu! and LaDüsseldorf were all connected; a few creative personalities created a very productive network there. Düsseldorf also was a major center when German punk/new wave started in the end 70s and early 1980s. Not sure whether that was related at all, but different from other prog bands, Kraftwerk, Neu!, LaDüsseldorf were well appreciated by a number of people who started something new at that point (also Can). Düsseldorf is also surrounded by other major cities, partly also music centers like Cologne, which for sure helps. |
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kirk782 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 06 2024 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 241 |
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This opinion might invite ridicule but whilst I loved Can's sound,I wasn't the biggest fan of Suzuki's vocals.Some of my favorite Can albums like Monster Movie or Landed don't have their iconic lead singer on it.
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kirk782 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 06 2024 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 241 |
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Was Dusseldorf a major center from where multiple kraut rock bands originated? La Dusseldorf is one that comes to my mind.
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18385 |
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I think that the Internet and websites like this one, help a lot ... and hope that this improves with time ... I think a student getting will known for a piece of music that a professor rejected, is going to hurt that professor's credibility sooner or later ... and doing it a 2nd and 3rd time, is probably going to make it worse. I like the idea of making sure things get seen ... and the only request I have is that there should be more honesty about it, not more comparison to something else.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Jacob Schoolcraft ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: December 22 2021 Location: NJ Status: Offline Points: 1273 |
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And that just shows why so many folks dumped classical music and are playing in rock or jazz bands. And it explains the majority of the keyboard players that we love dearly ... Keith would be laughed at and trashed if he brought a score to a professor of TARKUS ... because it would be thought of as inconsistent, with sections that did not flow and connect well ... and then in the hands of someone else on piano almost 50 years later? An astounding piano concerto, but no one on PA will see that, I don't think! They were snobs. But there's open minded people everywhere. Many classically trained keyboardists I knew in the 70s loved Tarkus and spent hours learning how to play it. They certainly realized that the Classical community was full of snobbery...they had to deal with it everyday. There are all kinds of music snobs. They make my skin crawl. There are stupid snobs.. they walk in on you as you practice and say..."Well...I can tell when you're making a mistake" I'm suppose to be making mistakes because I'm practicing...NOT PERFORMING. They are conceded individuals. Music is not a stunt car driver on the track. Gymnastics fall into play sometimes but that doesn't mean you can't put some feeling into it. I don't like guitar battles...or cutting heads. It's not music! It's a macho game between musicians competing to see who is most clever. In the music business there are band leaders who try to buy you. They need a guitarist to play The Eagles, CCR, etc...Southern Rock and they act as if John Fogerty is Mozart . All you have to do is be honest by saying that you don't prefer the style and you suddenly become this bad person in their eyes. Why? Because Fogerty is the messiah. It's ridiculous! "Oh it's a red flag if you don't like CCR. " No it is not! That's called honesty. When band leaders try to control their band members it's narcissistic. Music is free spirited . It never follows one particular path. Their taste is as such that signature lines played by CAMEL make them vomit. They'd rather hear 3 chord Swamp Rock and praise it like a religion. Their position is moronic. They are fixated on picking apart anybody that plays like John McLaughlin or George Benson. They are the opposite spectrum from Classical snobs..or Jazz snobs...nevertheless the point being that music is an art form not a game that narcissists apply to their own agenda... |
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Valdez ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 17 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1084 |
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More than enough audience. A glut of fantastic new music, but much of it is getting lost in the crowd. What's HOT is whatever the almighty media is jamming down our throats daily. Media outlets cockily hold their hand out, and whoever drops the most cash in the hand gets to play. Many media outlets own their superstars outright, and spend many thousands pushing them... to make millions. The media machine did latch on to 21 pilots in the beginning and at least they got that right. The 'Blurry face' & TRENCH albums are works of art. The media doesn't glom onto them anymore after they strayed away from their couple of monster pop hits. I prefer to do my listening underground, away from the flavor of the day. Old & New Krautrock style fits the bill. Logan and I both like YOO DOO RIGHT... Pretty obscure but we found them in the crowd. I don't follow classical or the composers, but hopefully they are composing new material, because I don't care who plays Beethovens 5th... again. I found an old Villa-Lobos album and played it through and was really impressed. It took me by surprise. I never know what's going to grab me until it actually does. I'm not a fan of categorizing... Genres just confuse me, and I am not knowledgeable enough to argue about them, because I honestly don't care. It's the reason I don't post often. Some heated conversations here may as well be in outer space.
Edited by Valdez - January 15 2025 at 18:08 |
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https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/new-2025-broken-hearts-troubled-minds
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Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 38231 |
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Covers of songs and adaptations of works are being made of music that interpret music in different ways to this day that are getting positive notice. I think that this "we" construct is not as universal and homogenous as you seem to believe.
Again this internet audience you speak of is not as homogenous a group as you seem to think, nor do I believe that this audience you speak of is stopping it. Concerts still take place with new interpretations of music. There is still space for lots of different approaches and it can be all too easy to over-generalise. Edited by Logan - January 15 2025 at 14:35 |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18385 |
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And that just shows why so many folks dumped classical music and are playing in rock or jazz bands. And it explains the majority of the keyboard players that we love dearly ... Keith would be laughed at and trashed if he brought a score to a professor of TARKUS ... because it would be thought of as inconsistent, with sections that did not flow and connect well ... and then in the hands of someone else on piano almost 50 years later? An astounding piano concerto, but no one on PA will see that, I don't think!
The difference here is the director/conductor, in the piece ... and sometimes they are the problem, not the player! The main issue with a lot of rock music, is not having an outside voice and person to help ensure the pieces are more complete and defined, instead of simply follow a high school format! Modern folks think a recording tells them all they want to see and hear. It is not an exact science since you are dealing with people, but there is not a whole lot wrong with interpretation of a piece and its score. The main issue, in these modern times, is that we think the original is perfect and everyone else is crap! So, today, there would not be room for a Karahan, or Leinsdorf, or Bernstein, or Ozawa, or Stokowski ... because the Internet audience would not like it! It's like watching "Waiting for Godot", and you don't realize it, but you might see it 10 times, and there are going to be different moments all 10 times, because there is room in the piece for the actors to work ... it does NOT deter from the piece at all ... and likewise I have, and enjoyed 5 different versions of Tosca, and Turandot, and I can tell you that the differences are neat ... and work just fine, and complement the support by the orchestras.
Not in my case. What happened 20 years ago is a part of that specific time and place, and does not belong in anything I do today. In the arts, and specially music, it maybe different as the audiences these days want to hear the "hit", or the well known part, and ignore the rest .... but for me, that is an issue with the commercial environment that is killing classical music because of the sales in all popular music, be it rock, jazz blues, rap ... whatever. I remember a special on Isaac Stern, and he commented that he didn't think he played pieces when he was 60, any better than when he was 30. He hoped that everyone thought it sounded right ... not "different". If you look at some other arts, there is no past ... the painting is finished ... the novel is published ... and it is weird that we are thinking that is has to be different ... it doesn't, and more often than not it won't be. But hearing a geriatric someone sing and play their hit from 30/40 years ago, in rock music, is getting to be a really tiring experience, and very boring ... and the feeling and desire to do it for its own life, is not there!
This is different for everyone. Some folks will practice and be looking for new spots and specific places when they can do something to it ... others are merely making sure their notes are in order. But expecting John Myung, or Robert Fripp to do it simply to find something is not likely ... but if Robert is honest about how he came up some 50 years with so much new music, you can say right away it was not by accident ... and it was not by design either ... and likely a combination of factors that required something else, depending on what he does for fun in between. This is the really hard part in "krautrock" and not all the bands were really good in concert ... with Tangerine Dream probably being the one that made sure that things were together and clear ... you always recognized the piece. And then you can see Grobschnitt, and in one album (Solar Music Live Remastered) there are several versions of the same piece, and it suggests that even in concert they could not stick to a script and loved to flow around, AND DID! Can was likely not to be the same, although the recent release of them live showed some of the limitations that Damo accidentally created for himself and the band. But no one said it was bad or wrong, and if you watch the Jaki Liebezeit tribute ... it was magnificent with both Damo and Michael Rother just far out and amazing! Amon Duul 2 is the only band that did not exactly sound good in concert after their first 10 years, when they likely wanted to be freer and not be tied to rehearsals and more band fights ... and it is sad in many ways, although the show that has some #Nada Moonshine Number ... seems to be much better rehearsed, but the rest of their material wasn't at all it feels like! It's really hard to determine here what the issue was ... but the members were known to be very independent and sometimes not cooperative with each other. Guru Guru is another example ... I am not sure that Mani cared what the music sounded like as long as he and the band could have fun for the audience and his antics and costumes would help the party ... but they also lost a lot in the translation ... which I think goes back to the lack of a rehearsal. Long live Krautrock ... folks just don't seem to care how it came about and with whom, except their ideas about this and that, which can be easily dismantled in the next band listed. But it all worked, and came alive ... and we remember it, more than ever! I think that says more about the very process than it does "music" per se ... but in this case the process was not exactly written anywhere ... it was being born each and every time with each person involved .. .and that is the history of it ... that sometimes we don't like because it is so vastly different than all the other conventional music around that we know and listen to!
Edited by moshkito - January 15 2025 at 14:09 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Jacob Schoolcraft ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: December 22 2021 Location: NJ Status: Offline Points: 1273 |
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Hi, Practice is only as good as the individual depends on it ... but, with my experience in acting with actors, and complete improvisation, I will change this comment to something different ... practice is dependent on your ability to concentrate, and sometimes, practicing 10 hours is a sign that this person's interest and commitment to a piece of music, is a problem ... otherwise the player would pick it up much better and easier. I don't see this being strongly true . Or perhaps your description of this applies mostly to rare cases. I grew up in a Classical family. What practice meant was improvement overtime. An example would be perhaps learning a strange but beautiful Mozart piece that is melodic and intricate. You learn the piece from the manuscript then you memorize the piece and toss the manuscript away or put it on file for a reference guide. Now the piece is in your head. The question is...how will you interpret the piece? Will you add embellishments? Will you get creative with the piece or will you insist on playing the same way everytime?...which is exacting to the manuscript. For example you listen to a recording of yourself age 20 playing that piece and you are age 40 something now and hear the improvement in yourself. When you play the piece now it's like a waterfall of notes. It sounds universal now where before it just sounded like a musician with good technique...but robotic...or afraid to walk alone. Practice and performing develops independence. If you don't practice much you'll have less chance in discovering your abilities...for example the one's that you wish to expand on. You can discover them through performing improvisation workshops . Some of these workshops I participated in introduced more spontaneity in playing Egyptian music. Improvising Egyptian style alongside hearing other kinds of instruments. Wind instruments for example. Musicians blending together or improvising while people danced or even meditated. But....hell..we all practiced for hours at home. Everybody practiced for hours to develop daily independence |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18385 |
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... And we still do not recognize how much of this individualism was what created what we consider "krautrock" that was also massive in film and theater, where these things are more visible. And, in many ways, someone from the outside making that comment about the Germans, was obviously a loser that will never get on stage and play music ... and think himself bigger than the music, the musician, or the artist ... and this is a bad issue when it comes to discussing intuitive materials ... like here, some folks are not going to like it! I'm OK with that ... but the arts are not your idea or mine, or theirs ... but one thing that scares us, is when it is intuitive, and we can not see where it comes from! Heck, we don't know anything about the human spirit any more than we do the Universe! |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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