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Quo Vadis Ukraine?

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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2023 at 16:07
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Thanks.  Hope your country never elects a disturbed sociopathic traitor like the U.S. did.   


Hi,

Not to mention how many "governors" also fit the bill!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2023 at 16:21
^ Yeah, well, if the people of a state elect a particular governor, that's who they get.   Democracy in action the way it should be.   But a Right-wing national party that has lost the popular vote for the last twenty years or so that is so out of control & desperate that their leader tries to subvert your Constitution, that's a bigger problem.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2023 at 16:27
^ Trump really is your Voldemort, isn't he? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2023 at 16:33
Maybe.  I'm not a Potter fan.  He's more like Palpatine.
Star Wars Finally Answers How Palpatine Returned From The Dead


Edited by Atavachron - October 06 2023 at 16:33
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2023 at 16:38
^ Wow, the Uniparty really did a trick on you if you seriously believe that. But ok, I’ll play - if Trump is Palpatine, who is Biden in the Star Wars analogy?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2023 at 16:46
^ I see--  I think the tricks around here are being played by you.   

Do I seriously believe what ?   That Donald Trump is in reality a Sith Lord ?   That's fiction, Mike, from a movie.   And besides we all know Trump wouldn't make it past the first trials of Sith training.  


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2023 at 17:00
You’re copping out … fine. There goes your opportunity to appear like a grown-up.

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 06 2023 at 17:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2023 at 17:10
You really are quite a master baiter.   And I mean that with no suggestive humor at all.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2023 at 00:48
People can read our exchange and come to their own conclusions as to who has been an ass-hat here.

Well, after this short reminder of why one shouldn’t feed a troll, maybe we could get back to Ukraine, where there are actual fascists.

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 07 2023 at 01:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2023 at 03:52
I'll answer Suitkees' comment later, when I go more time.

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Well, after this short reminder of why one shouldn’t feed a troll, maybe we could get back to Ukraine, where there are actual fascists.


Though he (Wlado) should look into his own side for his own neo-nazis before giving lessons, Putin is relatively right with this "nazi" claim.  It's little secret that most of the death camps were established in actual western Ukraine & southern Poland (provinces of Silesia, Galicia, Ruthenia, Bessarabia etc...), because anti-jew progroms were common since the middle of the XIXth C (entire villages massacred). But those people were not nazis before WW2. I suspect that the Third Reich established their death camps there (as opposed to Alsace or North Holland) because they knew it was fertile grounds for such things.

I've said this before in other  Ukr threads here, but after Chicago, Toronto is the second-biggest Ukrainian city outside Ukraine (and third biggest Polish city outside Poland). When, during the 80's, I lived in the Jane & Bloor Street and High Park area, this was "Little Kiev" (my personal expression) and I had many Ukrainian-descent friends/buddies/acquaintances (and even a GF for a few months), and believe me, when I looked in their dad or grandad's library, there were tons of Hitler/Reich-related books. There is little reasons to imagine that it was different in the US (Chicago/Wisconsin) or southern Manitoba/Winipeg area. One of my best buddy was actually born in Chicago. I also understand many of these grandfathers still alive in the early 90's went back to their homelands to finish their lives free of any problems. I can easily see some Russian authorities (probably still communists back then) seething & fuming at this "returning-home thing", but not being able to do anything about it, since the fall of USSR.

Canada and the US didn't search deep enough the background of these "refugees" when welcoming these populations who were fleeing communism at the start of the cold war, instead of being sent to goulags in Eastern Siberia by the Soviets.

And then there is the Azov (or whatever) Bataillon/militia, but I'm sure the same thing exist 300km across the border.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mirakaze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2023 at 10:51
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

The map above is taken from Wikipedia's Ukraine page, so it's not a pro-russia deformation map. (...) As you can also see, Crimea was Russian (as were cities on the Black Sea like Odessa - constructed by the Tsar in the XIXth C) and remember that Krutchev was Ukrainian.
With all due respect, none of this is relevant. What matters is what the people of Ukraine actually want; any lingering debate on supposed historical injustice should have been settled after 1991, when a majority of voters in every single region of Ukraine (including Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk and Sevastopol) voted to secede from Russia. The Russian government then recognized Ukraine's independence and officially pledged to respect its territorial integrity on four separate occasions in 1991, 1994, 1997 and 2008. You'd think they would have raised the issue of territorial claims on supposedly "historically Russian" lands a little sooner if they had an actual legitimate case for it.

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

What Putin really wants are the lands given by the USSR to its Ukraine Republic (the ones mainly populated by Russian-descent (therefore in blue). That's where 99% of the fighting is done.

As you can see, he's barely touched the lands in Yellow, if only to pressure Kiev
Those areas are where 99% of the fighting happens now, but certainly not at the start of the invasion; I'd hardly call the heavy fighting in and around Kyiv as well as other major urban centres like Sumy and Chernihiv in 2022, not to mention the repeated bombings of Lviv and other western cities and the countless civilian massacres, "hardly touching". I know Putin has since claimed that the Kyiv offensive was merely a distraction from the main Russian offensive in the south but this could just as well be post-hoc saving face after its failure to put a quick end to the war by rapidly storming across these areas.

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

which Russia's first historical capital, if you remember well
This is also not accurate. Kyiv is the historical capital of Rus', which modern Russia is obviously named after but of which it is not a direct successor and certainly not the only descendant; it has never been the capital of Russia. In a distant past the Russian tsars claimed to also be the legitimate successors of the Roman emperors but obviously no one in their right mind would call Rome the historical capital of Russia.


Edited by Mirakaze - October 07 2023 at 10:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2023 at 11:02
Originally posted by Mirakaze Mirakaze wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

The map above is taken from Wikipedia's Ukraine page, so it's not a pro-russia deformation map. (...) As you can also see, Crimea was Russian (as were cities on the Black Sea like Odessa - constructed by the Tsar in the XIXth C) and remember that Krutchev was Ukrainian.
With all due respect, none of this is relevant. What matters is what the people of Ukraine actually want; any lingering debate on supposed historical injustice should have been settled after 1991, when a majority of voters in every single region of Ukraine (including Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk and Sevastopol) voted to secede from Russia. The Russian government then recognized Ukraine's independence and officially pledged to respect its territorial integrity on four separate occasions in 1991, 1994, 1997 and 2008. You'd think they would have raised the issue of territorial claims on supposedly "historically Russian" lands a little sooner if they had an actual legitimate case for it.

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

What Putin really wants are the lands given by the USSR to its Ukraine Republic (the ones mainly populated by Russian-descent (therefore in blue). That's where 99% of the fighting is done.

As you can see, he's barely touched the lands in Yellow, if only to pressure Kiev
Those areas are where 99% of the fighting happens now, but certainly not at the start of the invasion; I'd hardly call the heavy fighting in and around Kyiv as well as other major urban centres like Sumy and Chernihiv in 2022, not to mention the repeated bombings of Lviv and other western cities and the countless civilian massacres, "hardly touching". I know Putin's has since claimed that the Kyiv offensive was merely a distraction from the main Russian offensive in the south but this could just as well be post-hoc saving face after its failure to put a quick end to the war by rapidly storming across these areas.

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

which Russia's first historical capital, if you remember well
This is also not accurate. Kyiv is the historical capital of Rus', which modern Russia is obviously named after but of which it is not a direct successor and certainly not the only descendant; it has never been the capital of Russia.


 


Crimea and four other Ukraine Oblasts voted overwhelmingly to join Russia since 2014.  Sure, Ukraine voted differently over 30 years ago.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2023 at 14:21
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:


Crimea and four other Ukraine Oblasts voted overwhelmingly to join Russia since 2014.  

How legitimate do you think these referenda were? I think not one bit, but I admit I didn't go there personally to check.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2023 at 21:09
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

People can read our exchange and come to their own conclusions as to who has been an ass-hat here.

They sure can, not that I care much, I sure don't mind being 'the ass-hat here'.  I ain't no politician.   Unfortunately Trump is and gave nuke sub secrets to some punk-ass Australian who has shared it with countless others.   

So don't tell me about who the traitor is, how to judge American politicians, or about reality in any shape or form.


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2023 at 01:37
^ If you have a bone to pick with Trump, why not create a thread about him instead of hijacking this one? And as speaking of traitors and corrupt politicians, do I have to mention Hunter‘s laptop?

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 08 2023 at 01:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2023 at 04:53
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:


Crimea and four other Ukraine Oblasts voted overwhelmingly to join Russia since 2014.  

How legitimate do you think these referenda were? I think not one bit, but I admit I didn't go there personally to check.

Probably not any more so than were the separation from USSR (not Russia) referendums of 91. Wink
But it was openly admitted that 95% of the population in Crimea was Russian still in 2014. 
Less so, for the four Oblasts, but still over 50% were.
But 91 was also a vastly different context as well. By 2008, Ukraine had become a hostile country to the Russian culture, pushed by  NATO and the West in general.

The ex-Soviet republics/countries had no idea of what an open democracy (election and/or referendum) was then in 91.
Probably none do still today, with the possible exception of Estonia and Lithuania (Latvia still hasn't  given the 300 000 non-citizens in its territory), if you're looking at Central Asia "Istans" or what is currently happening in the Caucasian mountain ranges.Ouch
BTW, Europe & NATO is doing nothing to help Armenia , because its gas & oil feeding it is coming from Azerbaidjian, instead of Russia. 

BTW, the only country that chose not to join that ex-USSR "Commonwealth" in 91 was Georgia (and paid the price of it by being invaded in Abkasia & South Ossetria).  Tongue


BTW again, the 91 Ukrainian referendum Wikipedia page was last modified in may of this year, which shows revionism to fit (skew) the truths of today.

===============

Mmmhhh!!!... I don't really have time to participate fully to this thread (got a life outside the web), so I may end my posting here.
This will avoid me getting involved in the potential naqsdtyness this thread is likely to veer into.



.


Edited by Sean Trane - October 08 2023 at 05:35
let's just stay above the moral melee
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2023 at 07:04
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:


Crimea and four other Ukraine Oblasts voted overwhelmingly to join Russia since 2014.  

How legitimate do you think these referenda were? I think not one bit, but I admit I didn't go there personally to check.
Probably not any more so than were the separation from USSR (not Russia) referendums of 91. Wink
It's quite some difference if a referendum is held and the way it is carried out and its results are widely acknowledged by everyone involved, or whether a country invades another one and in the middle of fighting or occupation the army runs around and organises a referendum that - surprise, surprise! Cool - has a result that benefits that army.

Of course we can't rule out that a good number of people changed their opinion in the meantime. You may speculate about reasons why people voted something in the earlier referendum that they may have later regretted, but you can do this for every democratic voting and it doesn't change matters. People freely vote for something, then it happens, that's democracy in action. Migration as a consequence of war and occupation will also have played its role between then and now. In any case the 2022 referenda aren't really anything to go by. 
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But it was openly admitted that 95% of the population in Crimea was Russian still in 2014. 
Less so, for the four Oblasts, but still over 50% were.
So what? Are you saying a majority shouldn't count because ethnic origins are more important that what people vote? I know Ukrainians of Russian origin who a very anti-Putin and pro-Ukraine.
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But 91 was also a vastly different context as well. By 2008, Ukraine had become a hostile country to the Russian culture, pushed by  NATO and the West in general.
I think that the "pushed by NATO and the West" bit lacks some respect for the eastern European people. If I remember correctly, you have written similar things about the NATO extension, but in the first place it was the Polish, Hungarian, Lithuanian, Czech, Bulgarian etc. people who wanted to join NATO, and for very good reasons, or so it seems these days.

I think that one can be critical of the American/NATO drive to expand their influence. I certainly don't see this as a force for the good in general, but at the same time we should acknowledge that a major driver was what was going on in the eastern European countries and what they and their politicians wanted. Expanding NATO was problematic for sure but don't ignore that there were very good reasons for doing it, and sometimes bold decisions need to be made and whatever you can decide comes with risks and disadvantages. You blame NATO now for what happens, but none of us can know what would've happened had NATO let the eastern European countries alone.
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The ex-Soviet republics/countries had no idea of what an open democracy (election and/or referendum) was then in 91.
Probably none do still today, with the possible exception of Estonia and Lithuania (Latvia still hasn't  given the 300 000 non-citizens in its territory), 
The Latvian situation is difficult and we also need to acknowledge that during Soviet times there was a major effort to put Russian people there to get hold of the country (and many Latvians were resettled or driven out of the country). I can see why the Latvians are very reluctant to give them the leverage to change things their way now (I'm not saying I think they're right; understanding pros and cons for me often has priority over promoting one or the other side). Other than that, there are already many Latvian citizens of Russian origin, it isn't the case that none of them is integrated into Latvian society.  


Edited by Lewian - October 08 2023 at 11:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2023 at 11:05
In 2014, an American/NATO-backed coup turned over the democratically elected Ukrainian government.  Dept of State- Victoria Newland was recorded on a phone call deciding who would be the next leader of Ukraine.  The Dombass did not want to follow the coup.  Immediately, America armed Ukrainian attacks on the Dombass people.   From 2014 to Dec 2021,  the American-backed Ukraine government killed 14,000 Ukrainians in the Dombass.  That was one of the main reasons why Russia attacked Ukraine.  Russia claimed they were defending the Dombass ethnic Russian population.   Is it any surprise that the Dombass voted overwhelmingly to join Russia?   

After Crimea voted to join Russia.  Ukraine cut off all freshwater supplies to Crimea.  


Some people don't think elections are valid if they disagree with the winner. Hillary complained about the 2016 election. Trump complained about 2020.  It's legal for Hillary to complain.  It's illegal for Trump to complain.  On Prog Archives, I will reiterate for the nth time since 2015...I am not Republican.  I am for the American people.  I am for peace.  I am against the GOP/DEM Uni-party.  I didn't vote for Trump.  I'm voting for Kennedy in 2024.  


Edited by omphaloskepsis - October 08 2023 at 11:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2023 at 11:30
^ I will agree that the western meddling in the 2014 Euromaidan uprising may well have been a mistake and contributed for sure to the situation we have now. (Not that Russia didn't try to manipulate events their way as well, they were just less successful.)
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From 2014 to Dec 2021,  the American-backed Ukraine government killed 14,000 Ukrainians in the Dombass.
Where's that information from? I have read quite a bit on this and you generally find a number of around 14,000 dead on both sides combined, that includes victims of the Russia-supported rebels. Russia actively supported these rebels, so it doesn't wash to present events as if innocent Russian-minded population was massacred by evil Ukranians. It was a civil war. In fact there was a rebel government in place that declared independence already before Russia invaded Ukraine. Also you find that it was very difficult to get reliable information from that area from that time as both parties weren't keen on letting journalists do independent work, so you must have very special sources to claim what you claim there with confidence. 

That you still refer to the referendum results under Russian military rule as if they were legitimate is ridiculous. Maybe for starters try to write Donbass correctly if you want some confidence for the "information" that you try to spread here...


Edited by Lewian - October 08 2023 at 11:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Prog-jester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2023 at 11:42
oh wow didn't know Sean Trane is ok with trusting Putin's talking points (and trusting Putin in general) and using those in arguments with sane ordinary people.

I'm so sorry we Ukrainians still somehow exist, bro. At least I hope you're entertained by the genocide so don't worry, with friends like you we won't even need enemies like russia, we'll be gone soon
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