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Quo Vadis Ukraine? |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18064 |
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Hi, Not to mention how many "governors" also fit the bill!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65602 |
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^ Yeah, well, if the people of a state elect a particular governor, that's who they get. Democracy in action the way it should be. But a Right-wing national party that has lost the popular vote for the last twenty years or so that is so out of control & desperate that their leader tries to subvert your Constitution, that's a bigger problem. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Online Points: 21594 |
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^ Trump really is your Voldemort, isn't he?
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65602 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Online Points: 21594 |
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^ Wow, the Uniparty really did a trick on you if you seriously believe that. But ok, I’ll play - if Trump is Palpatine, who is Biden in the Star Wars analogy?
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65602 |
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^ I see-- I think the tricks around here are being played by you. Do I seriously believe what ? That Donald Trump is in reality a Sith Lord ? That's fiction, Mike, from a movie. And besides we all know Trump wouldn't make it past the first trials of Sith training. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Online Points: 21594 |
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You’re copping out … fine. There goes your opportunity to appear like a grown-up.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 06 2023 at 17:03 |
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65602 |
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You really are quite a master baiter. And I mean that with no suggestive humor at all.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Online Points: 21594 |
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People can read our exchange and come to their own conclusions as to who has been an ass-hat here.
![]() Well, after this short reminder of why one shouldn’t feed a troll, maybe we could get back to Ukraine, where there are actual fascists. Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 07 2023 at 01:07 |
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Sean Trane ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20414 |
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I'll answer Suitkees' comment later, when I go more time.
Though he (Wlado) should look into his own side for his own neo-nazis before giving lessons, Putin is relatively right with this "nazi" claim. It's little secret that most of the death camps were established in actual western Ukraine & southern Poland (provinces of Silesia, Galicia, Ruthenia, Bessarabia etc...), because anti-jew progroms were common since the middle of the XIXth C (entire villages massacred). But those people were not nazis before WW2. I suspect that the Third Reich established their death camps there (as opposed to Alsace or North Holland) because they knew it was fertile grounds for such things. I've said this before in other Ukr threads here, but after Chicago, Toronto is the second-biggest Ukrainian city outside Ukraine (and third biggest Polish city outside Poland). When, during the 80's, I lived in the Jane & Bloor Street and High Park area, this was "Little Kiev" (my personal expression) and I had many Ukrainian-descent friends/buddies/acquaintances (and even a GF for a few months), and believe me, when I looked in their dad or grandad's library, there were tons of Hitler/Reich-related books. There is little reasons to imagine that it was different in the US (Chicago/Wisconsin) or southern Manitoba/Winipeg area. One of my best buddy was actually born in Chicago. I also understand many of these grandfathers still alive in the early 90's went back to their homelands to finish their lives free of any problems. I can easily see some Russian authorities (probably still communists back then) seething & fuming at this "returning-home thing", but not being able to do anything about it, since the fall of USSR. Canada and the US didn't search deep enough the background of these "refugees" when welcoming these populations who were fleeing communism at the start of the cold war, instead of being sent to goulags in Eastern Siberia by the Soviets. And then there is the Azov (or whatever) Bataillon/militia, but I'm sure the same thing exist 300km across the border. |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Mirakaze ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Eclectic, JRF/Canterbury, Avant/Zeuhl Joined: December 17 2019 Location: (redacted) Status: Offline Points: 4229 |
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Edited by Mirakaze - October 07 2023 at 10:56 |
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omphaloskepsis ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 19 2011 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 6799 |
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Crimea and four other Ukraine Oblasts voted overwhelmingly to join Russia since 2014. Sure, Ukraine voted differently over 30 years ago. ![]() |
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15149 |
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How legitimate do you think these referenda were? I think not one bit, but I admit I didn't go there personally to check.
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65602 |
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They sure can, not that I care much, I sure don't mind being 'the ass-hat here'. I ain't no politician. Unfortunately Trump is and gave nuke sub secrets to some punk-ass Australian who has shared it with countless others. So don't tell me about who the traitor is, how to judge American politicians, or about reality in any shape or form. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Online Points: 21594 |
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^ If you have a bone to pick with Trump, why not create a thread about him instead of hijacking this one? And as speaking of traitors and corrupt politicians, do I have to mention Hunter‘s laptop?
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 08 2023 at 01:39 |
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Sean Trane ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20414 |
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Probably not any more so than were the separation from USSR (not Russia) referendums of 91. ![]() But it was openly admitted that 95% of the population in Crimea was Russian still in 2014. Less so, for the four Oblasts, but still over 50% were. But 91 was also a vastly different context as well. By 2008, Ukraine had become a hostile country to the Russian culture, pushed by NATO and the West in general. The ex-Soviet republics/countries had no idea of what an open democracy (election and/or referendum) was then in 91. Probably none do still today, with the possible exception of Estonia and Lithuania (Latvia still hasn't given the 300 000 non-citizens in its territory), if you're looking at Central Asia "Istans" or what is currently happening in the Caucasian mountain ranges. ![]() BTW, Europe & NATO is doing nothing to help Armenia , because its gas & oil feeding it is coming from Azerbaidjian, instead of Russia. BTW, the only country that chose not to join that ex-USSR "Commonwealth" in 91 was Georgia (and paid the price of it by being invaded in Abkasia & South Ossetria). ![]() BTW again, the 91 Ukrainian referendum Wikipedia page was last modified in may of this year, which shows revionism to fit (skew) the truths of today. =============== Mmmhhh!!!... I don't really have time to participate fully to this thread (got a life outside the web), so I may end my posting here. This will avoid me getting involved in the potential naqsdtyness this thread is likely to veer into. .
Edited by Sean Trane - October 08 2023 at 05:35 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15149 |
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It's quite some difference if a referendum is held and the way it is carried out and its results are widely acknowledged by everyone involved, or whether a country invades another one and in the middle of fighting or occupation the army runs around and organises a referendum that - surprise, surprise! ![]() Of course we can't rule out that a good number of people changed their opinion in the meantime. You may speculate about reasons why people voted something in the earlier referendum that they may have later regretted, but you can do this for every democratic voting and it doesn't change matters. People freely vote for something, then it happens, that's democracy in action. Migration as a consequence of war and occupation will also have played its role between then and now. In any case the 2022 referenda aren't really anything to go by.
So what? Are you saying a majority shouldn't count because ethnic origins are more important that what people vote? I know Ukrainians of Russian origin who a very anti-Putin and pro-Ukraine.
I think that the "pushed by NATO and the West" bit lacks some respect for the eastern European people. If I remember correctly, you have written similar things about the NATO extension, but in the first place it was the Polish, Hungarian, Lithuanian, Czech, Bulgarian etc. people who wanted to join NATO, and for very good reasons, or so it seems these days. I think that one can be critical of the American/NATO drive to expand their influence. I certainly don't see this as a force for the good in general, but at the same time we should acknowledge that a major driver was what was going on in the eastern European countries and what they and their politicians wanted. Expanding NATO was problematic for sure but don't ignore that there were very good reasons for doing it, and sometimes bold decisions need to be made and whatever you can decide comes with risks and disadvantages. You blame NATO now for what happens, but none of us can know what would've happened had NATO let the eastern European countries alone.
The Latvian situation is difficult and we also need to acknowledge that during Soviet times there was a major effort to put Russian people there to get hold of the country (and many Latvians were resettled or driven out of the country). I can see why the Latvians are very reluctant to give them the leverage to change things their way now (I'm not saying I think they're right; understanding pros and cons for me often has priority over promoting one or the other side). Other than that, there are already many Latvian citizens of Russian origin, it isn't the case that none of them is integrated into Latvian society.
Edited by Lewian - October 08 2023 at 11:59 |
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omphaloskepsis ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 19 2011 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 6799 |
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In 2014, an American/NATO-backed coup turned over the democratically elected Ukrainian government. Dept of State- Victoria Newland was recorded on a phone call deciding who would be the next leader of Ukraine. The Dombass did not want to follow the coup. Immediately, America armed Ukrainian attacks on the Dombass people. From 2014 to Dec 2021, the American-backed Ukraine government killed 14,000 Ukrainians in the Dombass. That was one of the main reasons why Russia attacked Ukraine. Russia claimed they were defending the Dombass ethnic Russian population. Is it any surprise that the Dombass voted overwhelmingly to join Russia?
After Crimea voted to join Russia. Ukraine cut off all freshwater supplies to Crimea. Some people don't think elections are valid if they disagree with the winner. Hillary complained about the 2016 election. Trump complained about 2020. It's legal for Hillary to complain. It's illegal for Trump to complain. On Prog Archives, I will reiterate for the nth time since 2015...I am not Republican. I am for the American people. I am for peace. I am against the GOP/DEM Uni-party. I didn't vote for Trump. I'm voting for Kennedy in 2024. Edited by omphaloskepsis - October 08 2023 at 11:47 |
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15149 |
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^ I will agree that the western meddling in the 2014 Euromaidan uprising may well have been a mistake and contributed for sure to the situation we have now. (Not that Russia didn't try to manipulate events their way as well, they were just less successful.)
Where's that information from? I have read quite a bit on this and you generally find a number of around 14,000 dead on both sides combined, that includes victims of the Russia-supported rebels. Russia actively supported these rebels, so it doesn't wash to present events as if innocent Russian-minded population was massacred by evil Ukranians. It was a civil war. In fact there was a rebel government in place that declared independence already before Russia invaded Ukraine. Also you find that it was very difficult to get reliable information from that area from that time as both parties weren't keen on letting journalists do independent work, so you must have very special sources to claim what you claim there with confidence. That you still refer to the referendum results under Russian military rule as if they were legitimate is ridiculous. Maybe for starters try to write Donbass correctly if you want some confidence for the "information" that you try to spread here...
Edited by Lewian - October 08 2023 at 11:34 |
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Prog-jester ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 05 2005 Location: Love Beach Status: Offline Points: 5909 |
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oh wow didn't know Sean Trane is ok with trusting Putin's talking points (and trusting Putin in general) and using those in arguments with sane ordinary people.
I'm so sorry we Ukrainians still somehow exist, bro. At least I hope you're entertained by the genocide so don't worry, with friends like you we won't even need enemies like russia, we'll be gone soon |
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