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Love Beach vs St. Anger (Albums)
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Poll Question: Which album do you prefer?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
21 [77.78%]
6 [22.22%]
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Hugh Manatee View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

It appears to me that within the fandom of ELP there seems to be a split between those who prefer Emersons contrubutions and those who prefer Lakes approach to their output.

Personally, I fall into the Lake camp. I listen to ELP mostly for Lakes meanderings, on "Works" and across the rest of the ELP catalogue, whereas a lot of Emersons work leaves me cold for the most part.

Greg has a superb voice and I personally think both Lizard and Islands would have sounded better for their inclusion. I am sure their co-writing on the first 5 albums brought out the best in each other and when they distanced themselves for Works, they both suffered but for me, Lake's side of the disk is fairly forgettable, sorry. 

Nothing to be sorry about. I am truly pleased that there are those that appreciate the Emerson contributons that I find so hard to access at times.

For me the two highlights of the self titled debut are "Take a Pebble" and "Knife Edge", both ostensibly Lake songs, although they are very much lifted by Emersons contributions to the extent that I believe Emerson deserves a co-write credit on both. The same apllies to "Lucky Man", which is hugely aided by Emersons magnificent moog solo.

On "Tarkus" Emerson and Lakes song writing talents meshed wondefully, particularly on the title track, and yet still for me the outstanding sections are Lakes parts; so reminiscent of his work on "...Crimson King", as highlighted by the snippet of "Epitaph" on the live "Tarkus" from "Welcome Back My Friends..."

"Trilogy" for me was the last time Emerson and Lake clicked together, particularly on the wonderful title track and Lakes supurb "From the Beginning".

This for me was when Emerson and Lake retreated to their respective corners, and the gradual decline began.

From here on in it is very easy for me to lean heavily towards the Lake side but as I have already expressed, I do appreciate those who prefer what Emeson put down.

Both factions of admirers contribute to the ongoing popularity of ELP, a popularity that would surely be diminished without both perspectives.



Edited by Hugh Manatee - April 27 2023 at 04:34
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VianaProghead View Drop Down
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Love Beach (ELP). It has its nice moments. Besides, I don't particularly like Metallica.
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Originally posted by VianaProghead VianaProghead wrote:

Love Beach (ELP). It has its nice moments. Besides, I don't particularly like Metallica.

St Anger is Metallica hitting rock bottom. I bet you would love some of their songs when they were at their peak. Smile
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Jared View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

Both factions of admirers contribute to the ongoing popularity of ELP, a popularity that would surely be diminished without both perspectives.


a very fine post, well worded... Clap
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Prog-jester View Drop Down
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Ima die on this hill but StAnger is one of my favourite Metallica albums, if not THE favourite. Yes each song should've been 1/3 shorter, yes the snare sounds like garbage, but it's so RAW and REAL! I'd rather see them being completely honest like that, but looks like they chose the Blatant Self-Plagiarism road instead (Magnetic, Hardwired, Seasons)
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Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

Ima die on this hill but StAnger is one of my favourite Metallica albums, if not THE favourite. Yes each song should've been 1/3 shorter, yes the snare sounds like garbage, but it's so RAW and REAL! I'd rather see them being completely honest like that, but looks like they chose the Blatant Self-Plagiarism road instead (Magnetic, Hardwired, Seasons)

there is no such thing as self-plagiarism. makes no sense to me. 
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geekfreak View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

I can't believe you made me vote for Love Beach LOL



Me too 😂
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Prog-jester View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

there is no such thing as self-plagiarism

there absolutely is though: for example, on 72 Seasons "Sleepwalk My Life Away" is "Enter Sandman", "You Must Burn!" is "Sad But True", "Lux æterna" is a Kill'Em All medley, "Inamorata" is "My Friend Of Misery", etc etc. Hard to miss the similarities
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Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

there is no such thing as self-plagiarism

there absolutely is though: for example, on 72 Seasons "Sleepwalk My Life Away" is "Enter Sandman", "You Must Burn!" is "Sad But True", "Lux æterna" is a Kill'Em All medley, "Inamorata" is "My Friend Of Misery", etc etc. Hard to miss the similarities

so how is it plagiarism, you can call those recycled riffs, you can call it predictable, generic. But self-plagiarism? Are they stealing their own ideas? The term is illogical. 
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richardh View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Prog Network Prog Network wrote:

Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

I can't vote. because... and I don't know whether you'll believe this, but I have actually never listened to Love Beach... and I really don't want to. My listening experience with ELP finishes with Works Vol II (and EL Powell).. I just don't want to go any further.

I heard St. Anger when it first came out and thought it was a pointless noise with few redeeming features. 20 years later, my view might possibly have changed, but in view of the fact that I didn't like Hardwired either, I somehow doubt it...

Honestly, if you stop at Works Vol II you aren't missing much in my opinion.

But there are only a couple decent songs that appear later in their career.

- The Score (9:08)
- Desde La Vida (7:06)
- Memoirs Of An Officer And A Gentleman (20:13)
- Changing States (6:01)

That's probably fair comment although you could possibly include the whole of Side One of ELPowell not just the opening track. I also rather like their version of Mars. The main issue I have with that album is the terrible vocal production, so much echo it's ridiculous.

Changing States may well be the best track off Black Moon but it's nice to hear the return of the Hammond on Paper Blood as well.

Love Beach only has one out and out bad track (A Taste Of My Love) which could have been ok if it had intentionally been ironic. For You is a good song and its interesting to hear some female backing vocals on The Gambler (literally the only time ELP ever did use female vocals). Perhaps slightly sadly this was the last ELP album that had Carl Palmer playing with real energy and precision. He changed his whole outlook on drumming after ELP first split up and was never the same. Greg Lake is also very good on Love Beach, it suited him well. Keith Emerson on the other hand is just a ghost of the man who took rock music by storm in the late sixties. He was clearly depressed at this time. Not his greatest moment but it shows how much ELP was about him and why it's such an unsatisfying album.
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felonafan View Drop Down
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side B of "Love Beach" is very good!
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Are they stealing their own ideas?
They are. They're deliberately structuring riffs (and then riffs in the songs) to make you think of their own earlier (and arguably better) compositions. Many artists do that, it's nothing new
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Prog Network View Drop Down
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Originally posted by felonafan felonafan wrote:

side B of "Love Beach" is very good!

Agreed! It's very underrated as well.


Edited by Prog Network - April 27 2023 at 15:28
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Pekka View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

there is no such thing as self-plagiarism

there absolutely is though: for example, on 72 Seasons "Sleepwalk My Life Away" is "Enter Sandman", "You Must Burn!" is "Sad But True", "Lux æterna" is a Kill'Em All medley, "Inamorata" is "My Friend Of Misery", etc etc. Hard to miss the similarities

As you said above, this is nothing new. If these are examples of self-plagiarism to you (I think Dream No More is much more a Sad But True than You Must Burn! is) then the same applies to for example Fade to Black -> Welcome Home -> One, and they even went as far as putting all of them as the fourth track on their respective albums. Plus of course they all begin with the exact same chord shape in the exact same spot on the neck. That's the most blatant one of their entire career, except maybe if you want to call every fast tremolo picking song a ripoff of Hit the Lights or Whiplash or something. They have a certain number of tools in their box and on the last three albums they've just rediscovered some of the old comfortable tools they put aside as years went by.

BTW I don't know how Inamorata is super similar to My Friend of Misery except for the use of the word "misery" (Hit the Lights -> Lux æterna is the only obvious one of your examples in my opinion).

Voted for St. Anger, I even like the snare but it's still their weakest album.
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Originally posted by Pekka Pekka wrote:

I don't know how Inamorata is super similar to My Friend of Misery
same harmony solo
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Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:


Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Are they stealing their own ideas?
They are. They're deliberately structuring riffs (and then riffs in the songs) to make you think of their own earlier (and arguably better) compositions. Many artists do that, it's nothing new

you can't call that plagiarism... Confused
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Pekka View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

Originally posted by Pekka Pekka wrote:

I don't know how Inamorata is super similar to My Friend of Misery
same harmony solo

It's not the "same solo", just a similarish vibe. A really damn fine section in its entirety, though. There are some solo licks on the new album that I could swear Kirk has used before, but I haven't been able to put my finger on the originals yet.


Edited by Pekka - April 27 2023 at 13:27
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:


Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Are they stealing their own ideas?
They are. They're deliberately structuring riffs (and then riffs in the songs) to make you think of their own earlier (and arguably better) compositions. Many artists do that, it's nothing new

you can't call that plagiarism... Confused
EXACTLY ! Self-Plagiarism is an oxymoron. And you do understand what the root of THAT word is right ???
From the Greek Oxus (sharp) and Mõros (foolish).

Forever, musicians have used, re-used and then re-used again their own themes, licks and ideas just like many other artists. It's one of those 'defining' things about artists people talk about.


Edited by JD - April 27 2023 at 14:22
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Points: 43814 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2023 at 16:03
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:


Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Are they stealing their own ideas?
They are. They're deliberately structuring riffs (and then riffs in the songs) to make you think of their own earlier (and arguably better) compositions. Many artists do that, it's nothing new

you can't call that plagiarism... Confused
EXACTLY ! Self-Plagiarism is an oxymoron. And you do understand what the root of THAT word is right ???
From the Greek Oxus (sharp) and Mõros (foolish).

Forever, musicians have used, re-used and then re-used again their own themes, licks and ideas just like many other artists. It's one of those 'defining' things about artists people talk about.

thank you for the vocabulary lesson, but i knew what an oxymoron was. ConfusedOuch
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Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:


Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Are they stealing their own ideas?
They are. They're deliberately structuring riffs (and then riffs in the songs) to make you think of their own earlier (and arguably better) compositions. Many artists do that, it's nothing new

you can't call that plagiarism... Confused
EXACTLY ! Self-Plagiarism is an oxymoron. And you do understand what the root of THAT word is right ???
From the Greek Oxus (sharp) and Mõros (foolish).

Forever, musicians have used, re-used and then re-used again their own themes, licks and ideas just like many other artists. It's one of those 'defining' things about artists people talk about.

This was tested in court when John Fogerty was sued for plagiarising himself.

"This case did not settle out of court. It moved relentlessly through the judicial system, all the way to a jury trial in 1988. In one of rock’s most bizarre moments of the 80s, John Fogerty sat in the witness box with a guitar on his lap and explained to the jurors what what must have seemed obvious to the entire courtroom – of course the two songs are going to sound the same, considering that they were written and performed by the same artist in that artist’s signature swampy style. But they could still be wholly different songs."
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