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Why Isn't Chicago (the band) Considered Prog?
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

But seriously, what the heck is “completely prog”? People on this forum can’t even agree where the borders of what is or is not prog are, let alone what prog itself might be. You really think there is something that could be agreed by all to be “completely prog”? 😄🤪🤪🤪

It's a starting place by which a given team or admins can vote on inclusion.
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Brass Rock at it’s finest methinks.
Prog is just a sticker…perhaps one you can slap onto their first couple of outings. Who cares anyway? The music remains the same.
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

But seriously, what the heck is “completely prog”? People on this forum can’t even agree where the borders of what is or is not prog are, let alone what prog itself might be. You really think there is something that could be agreed by all to be “completely prog”? 😄🤪🤪🤪

It's a starting place by which a given team or admins can vote on inclusion.


😄 That is quite possibly the funniest thing I have ever read in the many years I’ve been reading this forum. 👏🏻👏🏻
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I don't think the question asked in the thread title is the right one, because here on PA they are considered prog, otherwise they would not have been here. 
Maybe the question is why aren't they more popular or more talked about here on PA and maybe elsewhere? 
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I'm so tired of having to check out all these so-called prog bands that sound nothing like Suppers Ready or Close to the Edge - we need a Completely Prog Sub-Genre!


Edited by Saperlipopette! - April 14 2022 at 02:01
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I'm so tired of hacing to check out all these so-called prog bands that sound nothing like Suppers Ready or Close to the Edge - we need a Completely Prog Sub-Genre!

LOL
And also a subgenre called "true prog". Evil Smile
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

But seriously, what the heck is “completely prog”? People on this forum can’t even agree where the borders of what is or is not prog are, let alone what prog itself might be. You really think there is something that could be agreed by all to be “completely prog”? 😄🤪🤪🤪
It's a starting place by which a given team or admins can vote on inclusion.
😄 That is quite possibly the funniest thing I have ever read in the many years I’ve been reading this forum. 👏🏻👏🏻

Isn't it ?   Also happens to be true, it's just rare and we haven't had to do that in a long time.  

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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

But seriously, what the heck is “completely prog”? People on this forum can’t even agree where the borders of what is or is not prog are, let alone what prog itself might be. You really think there is something that could be agreed by all to be “completely prog”? 😄🤪🤪🤪
It's a starting place by which a given team or admins can vote on inclusion.
😄 That is quite possibly the funniest thing I have ever read in the many years I’ve been reading this forum. 👏🏻👏🏻

Isn't it ?   Also happens to be true, it's just rare and we haven't had to do that in a long time.  


It is, and I suspect many may not have seen the humour. Here’s to prog that is “complete”! 🍻 
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Not to belabor it, but as an example, when Heavy Prog was in its infancy we had to decide if Journey should be included in the PA database as a prog rock band, and if so whether they should be considered HP.   We concluded that though Journey had released several albums that contained some progressive rock and rock-fusion material, they had never released an album that could be considered a prog rock release.   So we rejected them and Admin voted them into Prog Related.




Edited by Atavachron - April 14 2022 at 02:30
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Not to belabor it, but as an example, when Heavy Prog was in its infancy we had to decide if Journey should be included in the PA database as a prog rock band, and if so whether they should be considered HP.   We concluded that though Journey had released several albums that contained some progressive rock and rock-fusion material, they had never released an album that could be considered a prog rock release.   So we rejected them and Admin voted them into Prog Related.



That's kinda wild to me. I'm curious as why they were considered for heavy prog, when the jazz fusion category seems so much more applicable to their early work Confused

Also, while I'm satisfied with Journey being prog-related because of their overall discog, I do think their debut is a full-on prog record Smile


Edited by Necrotica - April 14 2022 at 02:44
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 So we rejected them and Admin voted them into Prog Related.


Ah yes, the Prog Related, that disorganised rabble of illigitimate ne'er-do-wells.

They are way to far removed to ever get near the crown even if they are allowed entrance to the throne room.


Edited by Hugh Manatee - April 14 2022 at 02:48
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Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Not to belabor it, but as an example, when Heavy Prog was in its infancy we had to decide if Journey should be included in the PA database as a prog rock band, and if so whether they should be considered HP.   We concluded that though Journey had released several albums that contained some progressive rock and rock-fusion material, they had never released an album that could be considered a prog rock release.   So we rejected them and Admin voted them into Prog Related.
That's kinda wild to me. I'm curious as why they were considered for heavy prog, when the jazz fusion category seems so much more applicable to their early work Confused
Also, while I'm satisfied with Journey being prog-related because of their overall discog, I do think their debut is a full-on prog record Smile

Didn't really matter so much initially because someone had to decide if they should be here at all, which is of course the main job of the teams.   Heavy Prog seemed a reasonable place to start.   When the band was rejected by us, no other team said "Hey we'll take those guys" so admin took on the task and a reasonable compromise was made.  

As you know , ProgRelated [and ProtoProg] is not a progressive rock category,  it is an historic & musicologic reference source.




Edited by Atavachron - April 14 2022 at 03:02
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Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 So we rejected them and Admin voted them into Prog Related.
Ah yes, the Prog Related, that disorganised rabble of illigitimate ne'er-do-wells.

They are way to far removed to ever get near the crown even if they are allowed entrance to the throne room.

A superstitious, cowardly lot, without question.
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I'm so tired of having to check out all these so-called prog bands that sound nothing like Suppers Ready or Close to the Edge - we need a Completely Prog Sub-Genre!

Hi,

The weird part of it all, is that if we look at a lot of Europe, and then Africa, and then Latin America, then South America, then Japan and the Far East ... there are a lot of bands that could be considered "prog" or "progressive", with one exception ... that the worst definition EVER of anything, states that it all has to SOUND LIKE or BE LIKE the top three or four that were crowned the best of these molds.

The result?

We stopped listening to music, and instead are always looking for something that is SIMILAR to those old buffoons (theses days, anyway!) ... instead of appreciating the very differences and really fine pieces of work out there that are completely ignored. You know what it is like? .... I'm bringing McDonald's and force you to eat burger and fries. ... we gonna loot and steal all the gold and resources so our upper class can get richer and keep the rest subservient while making sure that the royalty never go poop and are always so neat and far out and colorful, when they have some of the darkest history EVER in anything ... and you are going to BELIEVE that their media is right, of course.

Here, on PA, I think that many of the folks that made decisions, did it with a lot better thinking and ideas, than otherwise. That CHICAGO does not get the attention that it deserves, is NOT THEIR FAULT, but the result of a generation of fans that is so commercially attuned, that finding something different is stupid and not enjoyed or appreciated.

WHICH IS BIZARRE and CRAZY when it comes to the arts. England, and all of Europe, had magnificent, FILM, THEATER, WRITING, and other arts ... except one. ROCK MUSIC that will FOREVER, be banned by a commercially minded group of fans, that don't listen to music anyway ... they will forget many of these bands later and then say ... I was just young and didn't care! 

We either stand for the art ... or we don't. The classification of it is not even necessary ... but we need to believe in our "children" and their "children" ... or we will all die alone and forgotten, because we were the mememe generation that did not give a chit!
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Chicago is widely known for their hits. Genesis are widely known for their hits. To most anyone outside of places like this, prog is not a thing, and both of these acts are considered ‘artpop’.

Why is Prokofiev not considered prog?
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Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Not to belabor it, but as an example, when Heavy Prog was in its infancy we had to decide if Journey should be included in the PA database as a prog rock band, and if so whether they should be considered HP.   We concluded that though Journey had released several albums that contained some progressive rock and rock-fusion material, they had never released an album that could be considered a prog rock release.   So we rejected them and Admin voted them into Prog Related.
That's kinda wild to me. I'm curious as why they were considered for heavy prog, when the jazz fusion category seems so much more applicable to their early work Confused

Also, while I'm satisfied with Journey being prog-related because of their overall discog, I do think their debut is a full-on prog record Smile


Yup, the debut should be considered "fully-prog" because a bit JR/F indeed
The second LitF  one should be considered "prog-related", but it is more in the heavy prog genre
Wheras their Next album is heavy and has only two "proggy" tracks (the instrumental N&D and Find You if memory serves), the rest being subpar hard AOR

the rest of their discog is pure crap, IMHO.
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Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

Originally posted by yogev yogev wrote:

beacause they don't.





Yeah pretty much. This would be like asking why isn't The Clash or John Coltrane or Arlo Guthrie prog...their music isn't prog thus they aren't considered prog. 
You have just mentioned three of my favorites...add Patti Smith, Devo and Janis Joplin. Listening to them I can
forget prog for a while... 

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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

I'm not sure I understand the opening question: Chicago has a place here in the PA database--under Jazz-Rock/Fusion. 

Personally, I only considered their first two albums as progressive rock, though elements of prog sounds and stylings pervaded lots of other songs of theirs. 

P.S. Terry Kath didn't mean to leave the band, he left the planet: accidentally shot himself while cleaning his guns in January of 1978. (Not a suicide.) Those present at the incident were totally shocked because Terry was such a careful master of his weapons collection.    


I could be wrong but I believe there was only one other person he was showing his guns to (possibly a roadie or guitar tech but I'm not entirely sure -I'd have to look it up again). Apparently, the guy he was with told him to be careful and Terry said something like "don't worry, it's not loaded. See.." and pointed the gun to his head and that was it. One of the biggest tragedies in all of rock imo. Even with what he did do on the guitar up to the point of his death he should still be ranked up there with Clapton, Hendrix, Page, etc but unfortunately he usually isn't. To prove that point I saw this poster today while walking around in the mall (I don't remember which store exactly) and Terry Kath is nowhere to be found. https://www.ebay.com/itm/333699168102

I had heard conflicting statements at the time ( I was a BIG CTA/Terry Kath fan, had just seen them that summer of 1977 at Castle Farms), but you seem to be right: sources say that Don Johnson (not the actor, one of the band's roadies) was with him. It was not Russian roulette; it was totally an accident--by a seasoned gun collector!

People forget that Terry was quite gifted singer and songwriter as well. That gravelly, forceful "White Ray Charles" voice sang the leads on "Introduction," "Make Me Smile," "I'm a Man" and even "Color My World" among others.

I think they're considered prog for their singular sound, experimental guitar play, and very creative structures and forms--often with great song-ending jams. They were a great if polished concert (in 1977). 
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Sure, they're on here, but this is THE place --- the PROG archives.

But they're never talked about. But I imagine there's hundreds of Genesis conversations, who also are known for their singles, too. And yeah, bands change, but it doesn't remove those first few albums "prog credibility". And it was 1969 when their debut was out...

To piggyback on what Moshkito was saying, in any artistic field, the first who do something seem to have to take the hits while they're knocking the doors down to give artists that come after them precedent.

Unfortunately, too many in the avant-garde talking circles (which is what many do - talk more than work) think anything weird or indescribable "could sell and make millions of dollars!"

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And yes, this is why after Terry died, the band went to sh*t, and then REALLY went to sh*t with Cetera/Foster. Maybe I'll listen to their 70s albums after Kath died sometime, but after reading the review posted on here, I think I'm going to listen.

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Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

Sure, they're on here, but this is THE place --- the PROG archives.

But they're never talked about. But I imagine there's hundreds of Genesis conversations, who also are known for their singles, too. And yeah, bands change, but it doesn't remove those first few albums "prog credibility". And it was 1969 when their debut was out...

To piggyback on what Moshkito was saying, in any artistic field, the first who do something seem to have to take the hits while they're knocking the doors down to give artists that come after them precedent.

Unfortunately, too many in the avant-garde talking circles (which is what many do - talk more than work) think anything weird or indescribable "could sell and make millions of dollars!"


I can think of a ton of other bands that deserve to be talked about and it does not happen, so it's not because of the avant prog circles, or famous bands like Genesis and so on. It's also not about credibility. 

It seems like you want everyone to love this band as much as you do, oh well... it's not possible, it never is... 
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