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lazland 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
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 Posted: December 12 2017 at 12:36 |
 AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
progaardvark wrote:
^And to add to what Ivan said, before Prog magazine was Progression, dating back to 1992. I discovered that in a Borders bookstore (no longer in business, but was Barnes & Noble's biggest competitor until Amazon came around) and subscribed to that well into the 2000s. Before Prog Archives was GEPR, ProgressiveWorld.net, DPRP, Sea of Tranquility.<span style="color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: small;">
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AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
<span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">In my mind resurgence kind of implies a lot of people suddenly discovering something for the first time not something that they already knew about but found out is still around. To me that's what happened with prog in the 90's. </span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">It was mostly older fans rediscovering prog not younger fans discovering it for the first time. There has been a resurgence in prog but in my opinion that didn't happen until a larger number of younger fans discovered it for the first time and that didn't really start to happen until at least 2005 or so with Porcupine Tree and the Mars Volta being possibly the biggest catalysts for that. There were other factors also such as the appearance of this website, the growth of prog festivals and social media but none of those were around(except for the prog festivals which were still very small at that point)in the 1990's.</span><span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;"> |
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</span> Let's look at definitions of both terms, via Google define: rediscovery: <span style="color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: small;">the action or process of discovering again something that was forgotten or ignored.</span> <span style="color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: small;">resurgence: </span><span style="color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: small;">an increase or revival after a period of little activity, popularity, or occurrence.</span> <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
</span> <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">I think this whole conversation stems from the confusion of what these two words mean. Both rediscovery and resurgence could be applied to the 1990s. There is a subtle difference between the two and it depends on what context they are used. What happened in the 2000s (and to this day) was the continuation of what began in the 1990s. The 2000s couldn't be considered a resurgence because of the amount of activity that happened in the 1990s. If the 1990s were like the late 1980s, then yeah, you could call the 2000s as such, but that's not the case.</span> <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
</span> <span style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">For what happened in the 2000s, maybe "expansion" might be a better word, or something similar. </span> <span style="color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: Roboto, arial, sans-serif; font-size: small;">
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Yes, but the 90's were really just an expansion of the eighties. Because using your argument you could say things were starting in the 80's with the neo prog "revival." It doesn't take away from the fact that the larger public was mostly completely unaware of prog in the 80's and 90's. Sure, stuff happened in the 90's but stuff happened in the 80's too. The important thing is the audience. Like I said it was mostly people rediscovering the genre in the 90's. More people actually discovered prog in the 80's then the 90's because bands like Yes, Genesis were still pretty big then and enticed a lot of younger fans(such as myself at the time)to go backwards in their catalogs and discover the "good" stuff. You can call it a resurgence if you want in the 90's but the big question is a resurgence for who? My answer would be those who were already fans(for the most part)unlike the following decade were prog's audience probably tripled if not more so. So if the market is appealing to those who are already fans but just don't know the newer stuff how is that really a resurgence and not a rediscovery? Imo, it's a rediscovery much more than a true resurgence. If a bunch of people who collected stamps and coins as kids all of a sudden discovered a big warehouse that was full of old stamps and coins and that got them into it again does that mean there was a big resurgence in collecting stamps and coins?
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In fact, during the 1980's, the "neo prog revival" was very much in the public consciousness. Marillion sold albums and singles by the truckload.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 12 2017 at 12:48 |
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
Also, some of your dates are wrong. I don't know about Baja Prog but Progday's first festival was in 1995 and Nearfest's first one was in 1999(I was there!). They might have got the funding they needed or started planing in the year's you started though. That may very well have been the case(actually I know it was for NF). Yes, Progfest started in 1993. IQ played but apparently it was Anglagard who brought the house down. I didn't go since that was on the west coast and I'm an east coaster. ;)
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I'm talking about the year of creation:
The festival was founded in the spring of 1998 by Robert LaDuca and Chad Hutchinson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEARfest
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Posted: December 12 2017 at 14:30 |
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Well, in that case Progfest was probably created before 1993. Usually the planning takes place at least a year before the festival is put on.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 12 2017 at 17:21 |
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
Well, in that case Progfest was probably created before 1993. Usually the planning takes place at least a year before the festival is put on. |
Nope, Progfest was created two months before, it was supposed to be something small, probably a one time event, they didn't expected the success created by Anglagard
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 12 2017 at 17:22
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Posted: December 12 2017 at 21:20 |
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Well, you said 1993 if you weren't wrong as though you might not be sure(maybe just not sure of the year). I can at least confirm it was 1993 though. I can also confirm that Progday was 1995(at least as far as when the first one occurred). I think what is important is when the festival happened. Festivals by themselves don't mean a whole lot though if only two hundred people show up and they are mostly guys with beards wearing scrappy old Nektar t shirts. Not that I'm judging them but they are fans from the old days obviously.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 12 2017 at 23:17 |
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
Festivals by themselves don't mean a whole lot though if only two hundred people show up and they are mostly guys with beards wearing scrappy old Nektar t shirts. Not that I'm judging them but they are fans from the old days obviously. |
Where you there?
I was in 1994.
It was a small festival, planned for a hundred people and the show was full, most people was young, I honestly didn't cared about how people was dressed, I went for the music from Perú (Like 5 Peruvians went) and all were very young, I was in my late 20's
But that was the starting point, this festival encouraged promoters to hire new bands and start events like this one, everything that happened in the 21st century started there.
It meant a lot, Anglagard and Anekdoten became two legendary bands in USA with just one festival, and for the nostalgic, Giraffe played The Lamb complete.
People went from around the world to see them, not massive, but it was the resurrection of Prog...And this means a lot.
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moshkito
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Posted: December 13 2017 at 07:46 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
...
People went from around the world to see them, not massive, but it was the resurrection of Prog...And this means a lot.
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How could it be "resurrected" if it never died?
What kind of editorial comment is that which makes no sense whatsoever for an artist?
The arts NEVER DIE ... your perception and mine, DO! Why can we not accept the fact that the arts are not the issue ... our perception and how we get to it, is the issue?
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 13 2017 at 08:55 |
moshkito wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
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People went from around the world to see them, not massive, but it was the resurrection of Prog...And this means a lot.
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How could it be "resurrected" if it never died?
What kind of editorial comment is that which makes no sense whatsoever for an artist?
The arts NEVER DIE ... your perception and mine, DO! Why can we not accept the fact that the arts are not the issue ... our perception and how we get to it, is the issue? |
Prog was dying.
They only needed the death certificate.
BTW: Some genres die, a good example is Disco Music.
Punk changed so much that it became another genre after 2 years
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Posted: December 13 2017 at 19:03 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:
Festivals by themselves don't mean a whole lot though if only two hundred people show up and they are mostly guys with beards wearing scrappy old Nektar t shirts. Not that I'm judging them but they are fans from the old days obviously. |
Where you there?
I was in 1994.
It was a small festival, planned for a hundred people and the show was full, most people was young, I honestly didn't cared about how people was dressed, I went for the music from Perú (Like 5 Peruvians went) and all were very young, I was in my late 20's
But that was the starting point, this festival encouraged promoters to hire new bands and start events like this one, everything that happened in the 21st century started there.
It meant a lot, Anglagard and Anekdoten became two legendary bands in USA with just one festival, and for the nostalgic, Giraffe played The Lamb complete.
People went from around the world to see them, not massive, but it was the resurrection of Prog...And this means a lot.
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Was I at Progfest? No I already said I wasn't but I heard they had maybe 3-500 people in a venue that held 1300 or so based on what I've read.
My point is prog was still very small and underground in the 90's. Maybe it still is small compared to the larger population and unless you are big music fan you still might not know what it is but it sure is a heck of a lot bigger than it was back then. I'd say there are at least thirty times as many people into prog now as there were back then(and that's being conservative).
Yes, the 90's were a very important decade but really it was when Porcupine Tree and the Mars Volta entered the top 100 album charts where prog got to where it is now and that happened a little over ten years ago.
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - December 13 2017 at 19:08
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moshkito
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Posted: December 13 2017 at 20:08 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
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Prog was dying.They only needed the death certificate. BTW: Some genres die, a good example is Disco Music. Punk changed so much that it became another genre after 2 years
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Prog was NOT dying. It was always there, but had no media attention whatsoever, which made it look like it was not active. Please take a stop at EUROCK and read these years ... just as active as any others.
But we can't let go of our "gods" Ivan ... that's the real issue in the end! And they were being laughed at in the media.
And for my tastes, the Internet kinda stopped that ... COLD. There were too many folks that liked it and kept writing about it. These fans, were the ones that created things like ProgArchives and many of the "progressive" websites. They did not believe that sick media any more than you or I ... and the Internet was proving us right ... these people existed and the bands were being talked about.
DISCO didn't die!. It kinda changed into a different scene, and it became the RAVE thing for a while, and then something else ... it might have died in Peru on top of the mountain, where that music might not even be appropriate, but it's still around ... with a slight different bend ... this is the case in all music. The punk change is pretty much how music changes ... but the Internet, these days, will likely keep a lot of things from dying out ... there are way too many people that love too many things, and they still sell. Heck, now it's a movie about the Gibb brothers and the success ... and they were not "disco" when they started ... like many artists they morphed to stay alive.
It's still ... kinda the same music. The same thing with "progressive" because most you folks do not like to listen to the really far out and out there folk, rock, and other bands that are way and far more miles ahead of most bands mentioned here as "progressive", but because you can't define it ... it ain't progressive!
Go ahead ... tell me that Vivaldi is dead ... or Beethoven ... or Mozart ... MUSIC NEVER DIES ... it does not matter what its "style" or "kind" is. It will have different instruments that make it sound like something else, but its basis is the same. Mechanical, mathematical ... and not progressive, because those two bits are NOT progressive. Maybe in the far elements and the idealistic quantum sciences, but those are so far out there, few can actually read them and appreciate its discussion or create music for them!
Same thing here. And some of us, who should show a much better appreciation and understanding for the whole earth life and changes, including the Internet and how it changed the arts at that very valuable time, specially ... would really help what you write ... but you don't believe in the arts ... how can you possibly believe in the music except your favorite bands?
Most of those festivals might not have made it as well, without their ability to get to folks on the Internet. De Luca would not have the time and money to pass out so many postcards and addresses ... neither would Nearfest and anything else. Without it, these folks would not have had as large of a response as they did.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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The myth of the 1990's prog resurgence
