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Dean
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 11:09 |
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What?
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The T
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 11:14 |
^Godwin's law is erroneous anyway. Depending the subject you are discussing, referencing the Nazis might actually be reasonable.
And this brings us to the collaboration between the Catholic Church and....
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 11:20 |
The T wrote:
Ivan, no matter what Lumen Gentium says, most Catholics haven't read it and what matters is their actions, not one document that is completely ignored by a large amount of its population.
And even that document still isn't as "love all people" as it would be nice to believe. |
Well tell me
¿Do Catholics evangelize in home by home? ¿Do Catholics take all the TV stations to evangelize? ¿Do Catholics attack other religions? ¿Don't most Catholics accept evolution? ¿Don't we accept the Big Bang (Proposed by Monsignor Georges Lemaitre)?
We are by far the most tolerant religion T.
We are taught to respect all religions, that's why we have a great relation with Jews and Moslems, even with the Dalai Lama who always visits the Pope.
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Nogbad_The_Bad
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 11:40 |
I not sure Catholics are as tolerant as Pagans, Hindu's and Buddhists.
While I applaud the doctrine you quote I haven't seen much of that behaviour displayed by North American Catholics. No they are not as extreme as the Evangelicals but they are pretty intolerant of others beliefs here in the USA.
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 11:41 |
The T wrote:
^Godwin's law is erroneous anyway. Depending the subject you are discussing, referencing the Nazis might actually be reasonable.
And this brings us to the collaboration between the Catholic Church and.... |
That has been proved false by Rabi David Dalin and Jewish historian Pinchas Lapide
Criticism like Rabbi Hier's shows cruel ingratitude for the Vatican's extensive help to persecuted Jews during the war years. In a 1967 book, Three Popes and the Jews, Jewish historican and Israeli government official Pinchas Lapide strongly defends the Vatican's record. "The Catholic Church, under the pontificate of Pius XII, was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000 Jews," writes Lapide.
In the following essay, a seasoned Vatican observer takes a strikingly different view of the wartime role of the Holy See. Contrary to widely-held perception, she argues that Pius XII strongly opposed National Socialist Germany, did everything in his power to aid Europe's persecuted Jews, and actively aided the Allied cause during the war.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n5p26_Martinez.html |
Pius XII's Christmas addresses of 1941 and 1942, broadcast over Vatican radio to millions throughout the world, also help to refute the fallacious claim that Pope Pius was "silent." Indeed, as The New York Times described Pius' 1941 Christmas address in its editorial the following day, it specifically applauded the Pope, as a "lonely" voice of public protest against Hitler: "The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas…In calling for a 'real new order' based on 'liberty, justice, and love'…the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism. Recognizing that there is no road open to agreement between belligerents 'whose reciprocal war aims and programs seem to be irreconcilable,' Pius XII left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace." The Pope's Christmas message of 1941, as reported by The New York Times and other newspapers, was understood at the time to be a clear condemnation of Nazi attacks on Europe's Jews.
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0020.html
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Less than two months after World War II broke out, on October 27, Pius XII issued his first encyclical, Summi Pontificatus. On the same day, the New York-based Jewish Telegraphic Agency, the equivalent of the Associated Press, reported that, "the unqualified condemnation which Pope Pius XII heaped on totalitarian, racist and materialistic theories of government in his encyclical Summi Pontificatus caused a profound stir... Although it had been expected that the Pope would attack ideologies hostile to the Catholic Church, few observers had expected so outspoken a document..."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/issues/pius12gs.htm
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Kossoff quotes the view of Pius "he was no Oskar Schindler". That is correct: there were fewer than 1,200 names on Schindler's list. The Jewish historian Pinchas Lapide, who made the most exhaustive study of the subject, concluded that Pius XII "was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands".
On the Pope's orders, Jews were hidden in 155 monasteries and convents throughout Rome, 3,000 at Castel Gandolfo, the Papal summer residence; even the ranks of the Palatine Guard were hugely swollen (membership gave Vatican citizenship). Across Europe the Church mounted a massive rescue operation. Those who lived through that era had no doubt of the debt they owed Pius XII.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/5527727/Pius_XII_had_a_much_longer_list_to_his_credit_than_Oskar_Schindler/ |
Please don't start with that T
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The T
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 11:43 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The T wrote:
Ivan, no matter what Lumen Gentium says, most Catholics haven't read it and what matters is their actions, not one document that is completely ignored by a large amount of its population.
And even that document still isn't as "love all people" as it would be nice to believe. |
Well tell me
¿Do Catholics evangelize in home by home? No but Catholic acquaintances can be pretty annoying ¿Do Catholics take all the TV stations to evangelize? Nyet, but they do have a network. ¿Do Catholics attack other religions? Yes, in the private sphere. ¿Don't most Catholics accept evolution? We would have to make a study. ¿Don't we accept the Big Bang (Proposed by Monsignor Georges Lemaitre)? You can't speak for all, though it's clear Catholics accept it much more than evangelists.
We are by far the most tolerant religion T. I would have chosen Budhism for that field though I might be wrong.
We are taught to respect all religions, that's why we have a great relation with Jews and Moslems, even with the Dalai Lama who always visits the Pope. What the Pope does is not always what actual regular Catholics do. |
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The T
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 11:48 |
No Ivan, you seem to attribute everything related to the Catholic Church to the Pope. If the Pope does this, then you generalize that ALL Catholics do the same. I've read plenty about Nazi Germany and WWII and though there were remarkable Catholics who helped Jews (and Roma and even gays, don't exclude them), there were plenty who refused to act, who stayed silent, and who even supported deportations and helped in the process. There was a little bit of everything. The Church as an official institution saved some Jews but remember that persecution of the Jews is not all that was wrong with Nazi Germany, and the Catholic Church was pretty silent including the concordat signed years before the war with the Nazi regime.
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Equality 7-2521
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 12:04 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I didn't make the number up. Dean has posted my source.
American Protestantism is evangelistic. And belief in Creationism exists in other sects such as Catholics.
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Again it's a Latin expression as in the case of neuralgic centre
"No puedo creer que existan" (I can't believe they exist)
It's not that I doubt what you say, it's an expression that describes how ridiculous is the situation that we now is real.
I believe you, what i can't believe is how fanatic people can be.
Again a problem of translation.
Iván
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That's not what you said. You said
Honestly, can't believe that almost 50% of the population are creationists. |
You said that you in all honesty do not believe the numbers that I quoted.
The words are as clear as day.
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Equality, if I had said that, I would had recognized my mistake.
That's how we Latin Americans speak, it's easy for us to translate what we say, but not to know if the expression means the same here and there.
| I just cannot believe it. |
| Todavía no me lo puedo creer que ahora tengo estos dientes perfectos y blancos. | I still find it hard t o believe that I am the owner of straight, white teeth. |
| Sinceramente, casi no me lo puedo creer | Sincerely, I almost couldn't believe it |
| Nuestros hijos se están desarrollando de una forma que no me lo puedo creer. | Our children are developing themselves in a way thatI cannot believe. |
| Sinceramente no me lo puedo creer. | Honestly I can't believe it. |
http://www.linguee.es/espanol-ingles/traduccion/no+me+lo+puedo+creer.html |
I'm not an ignorant
- I know about the Bible Belt. - I have seen photos of the Creation Museum and made fun of them. - I remember when the phrase "Evolution is only a theory as Creationism" forced to be printed in books - I know USA has almost 40% of evangelicals (Of multiple denominations) and ALL OF THEM HAVE LITERAL BELIEF IN CREATION.
I have many defects, but I never deny what I said and never lie, if I said something I'll stick to it, or if I'm wrong i would say sorry, I dion't knew.
But when I say we use this expression is because we use it.
Iván |
My comment has flown sufficiently over your head it appears, as well as Teo's.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Dean
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 12:05 |
The T wrote:
^Godwin's law is erroneous anyway. Depending the subject you are discussing, referencing the Nazis might actually be reasonable.
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Sure, I imagine it's invoked on the storm front forum every other post.
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What?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 12:12 |
The T wrote:
No Ivan, you seem to attribute everything related to the Catholic Church to the Pope. If the Pope does this, then you generalize that ALL Catholics do the same. I've read plenty about Nazi Germany and WWII and though there were remarkable Catholics who helped Jews (and Roma and even gays, don't exclude them), there were plenty who refused to act, who stayed silent, and who even supported deportations and helped in the process. There was a little bit of everything.
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Of course
- There are communist priests, despite the catholic Church condemns communism. That's why Ernesto Cardenal was publicly reprehended by John Paul II
- There were priests fighting in the Franco army
And priests fighting with the Republican army.
- There were priests with Videla and Priests with The Mothers of Plaza de Mayo.
Priests and Catholics are humans, we are entitled to our own ideas.
But the Church is represented EXCLUSIVELY BY THE POPE.
T wrote:
The Church as an official institution saved some Jews but remember that persecution of the Jews is not all that was wrong with Nazi Germany, and the Catholic Church was pretty silent including the concordat signed years before the war with the Nazi regime. |
¿Some jews?
760,000 TO 800,00 JEWS SAVED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS MORE THAN ANY GOVERNMENT OR ALL THE OTHER RELIGIONS TOGETHER.
With a great difference:
Most Protestants were in ally territory (The Church of Germany was the Evangelical Christian Church and the REICH BISHOP was the Lutheran Ludwig Muller).
The Vatican was surrounded by enemies and still took the risk
BTW: Read about the Concordat from Jewishs
The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: An Interview with Rabbi David G. Dalin
What about the Concordat? Woods: What do you think students of history should make of the Vatican’s 1933 concordat with Germany? Was that agreement in any way an endorsement of National Socialism? Rabbi David: The Vatican’s 1933 Concordat with Nazi Germany is one of the issues that critics of Pius XII have used to attack him. Critics of the Reich Concordat, as the Vatican’s 1933 concordat with Nazi Germany has come to be known, claim that it silenced German Catholics who otherwise might have openly opposed Hitler and held him in check. Students of history need to know that such criticism is historically false and misleading. On the contrary, as historian Jose Sanchez has pointed out, the concordat was a pragmatic and morally defensible diplomatic measure to protect German Catholics and the relative freedom of the Catholic Church in Germany. “The Germans had proposed the concordat,” Sanchez reminds us, and for the Vatican “to have rejected it out of hand would have been prejudicial to the rights of Catholics in Germany.” It was morally defensible from the vantage point of German Jews as well, as it had been signed in July 1933, well before Hitler had enacted any of his anti-Semitic legislation or decrees. Contrary to what Pacelli’s critics have alleged, the concordat did not precipitate the collapse of Germany’s Catholic Center Party. The Vatican wanted the concordat “primarily to protect German Catholics in political situations in which their traditional protector, the Catholic Center Party, no longer existed.”… The Center Party’s influence had steadily declined during the last years of the Weimar Republic. By 1933, it was hardly a political factor at all. In fact, on July 5, 1933, two weeks before the concordat was signed, the party membership decided to dissolve. As even the papal critic James Carroll reluctantly concedes, “Even before the concordat was formally signed, the Center Party had ceased to exist.” Critics of Pacelli argue that Hitler pressed for the concordat in order to give his Nazi regime moral legitimacy. As Sanchez points out, however, the concordat gave no moral approval to Hitler’s regime. Indeed, when Hitler tried to make this claim, hailing the Vatican’s “recognition of the present government,” Pacelli specifically denied it in two articles in the Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano. All the Church had done was to negotiate a treaty and nothing more, Pacelli argued. Students of history need to be reminded that, contrary to what Pius XII’s critics have falsely alleged, the concordat did not imply a moral endorsement of Hitler or National Socialism. Professor John Conway of the University of British Columbia, while not uncritical of Pius XII, says,
The conclusion of the Reich Concordat with the new Nazi regime in 1933 is…not to be seen as a sign of the Vatican’s approval…but rather as an attempt to control [the regime’s] unpredictable revolutionary fervor within some legally binding framework. The German historian Konrad Repgen agrees that for the Catholic Church, the concordat “was not an alliance but an instrument of defense
http://catholicexchange.com/the-myth-of-hitlers-pope-an-interview-with-rabbi-david-g-dalin |
The Concordat was to protect CATHOLICS in Germany, AND WAS SIGNED ON JULY 20, 1933.
BEFORE HITLER KILLED JEWS, AS A FACT WHEN SIGNED, USA, UK AND ALL THE ALLIES HADD FORMAL RELATIONS WITH GERMANY
I've wrote articles about this issue, all the accusations are defamation.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 31 2014 at 12:20
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Dean
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 12:19 |
Thank f_ck this is the atheist thread where Ivan can defend catholicism without fear of protestant reprisals.
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What?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 12:21 |
Dean wrote:
Thank f_ck this is the atheist thread where Ivan can defend catholicism without fear of protestant reprisals. |
No problem with Protestants...But with Evangelicals.
And I take replies Dean, this is something they know.
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Dean
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 12:24 |
...but no one was attacking catholicism for there to be any need to flood the thread with posts.
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What?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 12:26 |
Dean wrote:
...but no one was attacking catholicism for there to be any need to flood the thread with posts. |
Yes Dean, read the posts.
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad
He's hardly a troll, he puts forward his arguments in books and discussion forums. If you attack Christians with the same vitriol that Christians attack atheist this makes you a troll? |
We donn't attack atheists
The T wrote:
^Godwin's law is erroneous anyway. Depending the subject you are discussing, referencing the Nazis might actually be reasonable. And this brings us to the collaboration between the Catholic Church and....
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We didn't collaborate with the Nazis
Placing us in the same sack as fanatics, is an insult for us.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 31 2014 at 12:30
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Equality 7-2521
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 12:30 |
Well you both believe in similar big men living in the sky, so it's not exactly as if it's an arbitrary categorization.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 12:31 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Well you both believe in similar big men living in the sky, so it's not exactly as if it's an arbitrary categorization.
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Our beliefs are our right.
We are entitled to believe as you are entitled not to believe
But accusing us of attacking atheists is a LIE.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 31 2014 at 12:33
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timothy leary
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 12:38 |
You must of forgot this fine fellow.........Alois Hudal
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Dean
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 12:42 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Dean wrote:
...but no one was attacking catholicism for there to be any need to flood the thread with posts. |
Yes Dean, read the posts.
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad
He's hardly a troll, he puts forward his arguments in books and discussion forums. If you attack Christians with the same vitriol that Christians attack atheist this makes you a troll? |
We donn't attack atheists |
Not all christians are catholics. There is no need to defend catholics because of this post, it is not an attack on catholics.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The T wrote:
^Godwin's law is erroneous anyway. Depending the subject you are discussing, referencing the Nazis might actually be reasonable. And this brings us to the collaboration between the Catholic Church and....
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We didn't collaborate with the Nazis |
Shame the emoticon doesn't mean the same thing in Spanish as it does in Spanish, trick stuff this translation business.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Placing us in the same sack as fanatics, is an insult for us.
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But no one did.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
But accusing us of attacking atheists is a LIE.
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But no one did.
People call the idiot Ralph an idiot, as an atheist I do not take that personally nor do I presume it applies to all atheists. The same is true when people attack fanatics like Dawkins, I am not Dawkins, they are not attacking me even though he and I are both atheists.
Edited by Dean - January 31 2014 at 12:43
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What?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 12:48 |
timothy leary wrote:
You must of forgot this fine fellow.........Alois Hudal |
Hudal was banned from Rome
After he was banned from Rome by the Vatican of Pope Pius, he withdrew to his sumptuous residence in Grottaferrata near Rome, embittered towards Pope Pius XII. However, not only the Vatican, but also the Austrian public were upset with Hudal especially at his last trip to Austria in 1961.[70] He died in 1963. His diaries were published in Austria thirteen years after his death and describe perceived Vatican injustices he experienced under Pope Pius XI and Pius XII after the publication of his book. He maintains the opinion that a Faustian bargain between socialism, nationalism and Christianity is the way of the future |
He said what HE believed and was banned
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: January 31 2014 at 13:03 |
Dean wrote:
People call the idiot Ralph an idiot, as an atheist I do not take that personally nor do I presume it applies to all atheists. The same is true when people attack fanatics like Dawkins, I am not Dawkins, they are not attacking me even though he and I are both atheists. |
There's a difference and you know it Dean, you're an intelligent person
We said Ralph...This only involves Ralph
It was said Christians, it involves Catholics because we are Christians
Dean wrote:
But no one did. |
Yes they did.
Equality 7 2521 wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Well you both believe in similar big men living in the sky, so it's not exactly as if it's an arbitrary categorization. |
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 31 2014 at 13:06
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