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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2012 at 15:10
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

I've lost track of this thread, but I think I know a good solution to all of this.

No matter what we do, there will still be someone who is crazy who will do crazy things to innocent people. No matter what we do, whether guns are outlawed or laws are made stricter, someone who wants to hard enough, will find access to guns (or other weapons) and use them to harm others.
Sure, but is that a good reason to make it easy for them?
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:


But.......

What if a single bullet cost $50,000? or $100,000?

I think that would bring down the rate of firing a gun down considerably, no?



No. Bullets are easy to make and the black market in "forged" bullets would quickly appear.
 
On the plus side, anyone using them would probably die when the explode in the chamber.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2012 at 15:20
Dean I really appreciate your words of wisdom on this subject.  There are so many in our country who buy into the propaganda and don't bother to exercise reason...

I probably missed it in this thread but this should give you a minute to pause an think my fellow US dwellers:
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/12/24/1375651/career-criminal-set-a-trap-for-murdered-firefights-say-police/?mobile=nc
Then again maybe not...


Edited by Slartibartfast - December 27 2012 at 15:34
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2012 at 16:50
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


Dean I really appreciate your words of wisdom on this subject.  There are so many in our country who buy into the propaganda and don't bother to exercise reason...I probably missed it in this thread but this should give you a minute to pause an think my fellow US dwellers:http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/12/24/1375651/career-criminal-set-a-trap-for-murdered-firefights-say-police/?mobile=ncThen again maybe not...

Well, obviously this means firemen and policemen need guns!
(Sarcasm)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2012 at 17:36
guns, and violence makes me sick to my stumack, i really can't handle it, hatred and insane anger, i want to stop all of it, cause it's makes me quazy  X( 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2012 at 17:59
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:


Dean I really appreciate your words of wisdom on this subject.  There are so many in our country who buy into the propaganda and don't bother to exercise reason...I probably missed it in this thread but this should give you a minute to pause an think my fellow US dwellers:http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/12/24/1375651/career-criminal-set-a-trap-for-murdered-firefights-say-police/?mobile=ncThen again maybe not...

Well, obviously this means firemen and policemen need guns!
(Sarcasm)


Yeah,we'll send in swat teams with all our first responders to fires.  We'll arm all the teachers.  And the NRA will voluntarily foot the bill....
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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The T View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2012 at 21:11
I don't have a problem with a world with less guns.

Make them lose their appeal. Teach other things instead of violence and shooting.

Don't make house handguns illegal though (I know, nobody's asking that... For now). They will go away by themselves.

Edited by The T - December 27 2012 at 21:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2012 at 05:10
Originally posted by Alitare Alitare wrote:

I think I read some statistics somewhere that stated that you're twice as likely, per capita, to be stabbed in the UK than shot in the US. I don't know the validity of the stastics (I think they dated back to 2006). So if you take guns away, doesn't that simply prove that they'd resort to knives?
You've got to be careful when comparing oranges to apples. Per capita, you are six times more likely to be stabbed in the US than shot in the UK, so it doesn't simply prove that they'd resort to knives, they are already using knives, it's a different "they". What you don't do is make it easy for them - a drive-by knifing is very hard to implement, mass-stabbing massacres are difficult too. Knifing someone to death is a lot harder than shooting them to death.
 
Per capita, you are twenty times more likely to be murdered in the US than in the UK, you are one hundred and fifty times more likely to shot to death in the US than in the UK, statisitic show a lot more if you consider every statistic involved (and not just the ones I've cherry-picked Wink) but it is very difficult to argue that a reducing in offensive weapons does not lead to a reduction in murder and death.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2013 at 16:57
[]

Cult YouTube gun channel boss found shot dead on rural Georgia road


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2259190/Keith-Ratliff-Popular-online-guns-explosives-expert-shot-death-rural-Georgia-road.html#ixzz2HWPaiuTm


I Just f**king Shot Myself - The Musical


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XTGmTrQXrwg

The Myth Of Hitler’s Gun Ban

http://propagandaprofessor.net/2011/09/26/the-myth-of-hitlers-gun-ban/

For those too lazy to read it:

Whenever a politician, or anyone else, starts talking about regulating guns, it’s a safe bet that someone will bring up how Hitler supposedly outlawed guns in Germany, which supposedly enabled him to do all the mischief he did.  As we’ve noted before, Adolf is a staple reference among propagandists. It’s become an automatic response to compare anyone you don’t like to Der Fuhrer, on the grounds that since he was evil incarnate, everything he ever said or did must also be evil. People have even been known to suggest that since he was a vegetarian, vegetarians are evil. It’s not surprising, then, that you often see this quote pop up:

“This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!”  –Adolf Hitler, 1935

Trouble is, Hitler never made such a speech in 1935. Nor is there any record that he ever spoke these particular words at all.  This little “speech” was obviously written for him, many years after his death, by someone who wanted you to believe that gun registration is Hitler-evil.

What he did say, seven years later, was this: “The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so.” So it’s fair to conclude that he believed “gun control” had its uses. But that’s quite a different thing from claiming that “gun control” was instrumental in the NAZI rise to power.

And the truth is that no gun law was passed in Germany in 1935. There was no need for one, since a gun registration program was already in effect in Germany; it was enacted in 1928, five years before Hitler’s ascendancy.  But that law did not “outlaw” guns, it just restricted their possession to individuals who were considered law-abiding citizens, and who had a reason to own one. And there’s no reason to consider that law particularly significant, either; the NAZIs didn’t seize control of their own country with gunpowder. They used a much more potent weapon: propaganda.

Under their reign, Jews were prohibited from owning guns, just as they were prohibited from doing many things. And it has become an article of faith among the gun culture that had they been armed, the Holocaust would not have happened (that is, among those members of the gun culture who know that the Holocaust really did happen). But the concept of a handful of citizens armed with hunting rifles and Saturday night specials fending off an army is delusional hubris peculiar to gun addicts. On American soil, its most glorious day in the sun has been perhaps Waco. And we all know how well that turned out.

The gun culture is right about one thing, however. Hitler really did enact a new gun law. But it was in 1938, not 1935 – well after the NAZIs already had the country in its iron grip. Furthermore, the new law in many ways LOOSENED gun restrictions. For example, it greatly expanded the numbers who were exempt, it lowered the legal age of possession from 20 to 18, and it completely lifted restriction on all guns except handguns, as well as on ammunition.

Given all of this, it’s pretty hard to make a case that “gun control” played a significant role in NAZI conquest. In fact, one might well say that when gun addicts brandish Hitler as a weapon, they are unwittingly arguing against their own cause.




Edited by Slartibartfast - January 09 2013 at 17:12
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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The T View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2013 at 00:25
^Again, just playing devil's advocate, the thing is that even with that in mind, people in Nazi Germany still didn't have guns. Whether the ban happened way before (which it did) or just after January 30 1933 is another story. Also, true that guns wouldn't have stopped the Nazis. Remember anyway that Nazis didn't really go and go all out on their people, they did it like every regime like it, slowly but surely, with normal individuals hardly noticing that anything was happening except for some stories heard from other people. As for Nazi invasion of other places, true, weapons wojldn't have stopped the army but there was no need to, there were armies trying to do it that failed (and even locals welcoming their arrival -to their later horrendous regret- like in many areas of Stalin-starved Ukraine.). And also, just playing it the whole way, let's remember what a handful of guns did for some jews that died heroically in the Warsaw ghetto. Thanka to that small amount of weapons they could resist deportation and inflict some minor but morally disturbing damage to the already-damaged oppressor (that Stalin refused to help them with the red army is a different story, their rebelion could've meant even more). They fought the nazis. Yes they died in the end (it was too uneven a battle) but still, weapons helped them. So the nazi example for or against gun control, though I agree is better left unused, can be utilized in both directions.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2013 at 05:39
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Remember anyway that Nazis didn't really go and go all out on their people, they did it like every regime like it, slowly but surely, with normal individuals hardly noticing that anything was happening except for some stories heard from other people

Hmmmm....why does that sound so damn familiar.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2013 at 09:44
A couple of stats published in December in a popular right wing newspaper here in the UK (not one I'd normally read but the link was widley circulated) -

94,388 people in the US shot so far this year. 39 people shot in the UK. (The US is much bigger, but still …)

50% of guns worldwide are in the US for 5% of world population, 300m in private hands.

95 shots were fired by German police this year (including 49 warning shots). 90 shots used to kill one 19 year old by LAPD after high speed chase.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2013 at 09:45
93,000 people have been shot in the US in the past 10 days?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2013 at 09:48
Busy little buggers aren't you.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2013 at 09:54
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

93,000 people have been shot in the US in the past 10 days?
 
He didn't say killed, he just said shot... 
 
That 9300/day over a population of 310 M people...(that makes one gun wound per 33 500 people/day) >> certainlmy keeps the hospuitals busy... wonder how that going to account for the costs of the new healthcare...
 
 
Somewhat unsurprising numbers from a European perspective (which is generally anti-gun)... though one would have to see the source of that stat...
 
 
 
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2013 at 10:17
It's not that it seems unbelievable when you break it down, but it's a staggering thing to digest. I would like to see the source though because I'm not quite sure how statistics for that would be available already. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2013 at 10:22
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

It's not that it seems unbelievable when you break it down, but it's a staggering thing to digest. I would like to see the source though because I'm not quite sure how statistics for that would be available already. 
Geoff did state the report was published in December - it would be safe to assume it was accurate for most of the year.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2013 at 10:27
The report was for the year 2012.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2013 at 10:30
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

It's not that it seems unbelievable when you break it down, but it's a staggering thing to digest. I would like to see the source though because I'm not quite sure how statistics for that would be available already. 
Geoff did state the report was published in December - it would be safe to assume it was accurate for most of the year.


I missed that because it was in a different font I think. That makes much more sense.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2013 at 10:44
You can pick and choose numbers from various sources to make a point, there is nothing to doubt the validity of each individual statistic but it all becomes a bit dubious when comparing numbers from different sources, and of course when comparing stats from two seperate countries that's inevitable. However, the general magnitude of the numbers and their relationship to population are indicative of something, though that something seldom what the person quoting the stats wants you to believe it is. The quoted stat is misleading because it equates shooting (but not necessarily death) in one country with actual gun-deaths in another - it makes the ratio look bad because 93,000 is soo much bigger than 38, which is bloody silly.
 
For example another stat claims 8,775 gun-deaths in the USA compared to 58 in the UK ... even when comparing actual gun-deaths to actual gun-deaths (rather than shootings in one country to gun-deaths in another) they still cannot agree on the actual numbers, but now 8,775 isn't 93,000 and the 8,775 is still sooo much bigger than 58, but isn't bloody silly, and now it does show the USA with 5 times the population and 151 times the gun-murder rate.
 
Now with clever statisitics you can fiddle and fart about with the actual values as much as you like, 10,000 can become 9000 or 8000, and 100 can be 60 or even 50 by cunningly excluding self-defense or accidental death or whatever,  but you cannot (get away with) changing the magnitudes - you cannot make 38 (or 58) into 380 or 3,800 and you cannot change 8,775 (or 10,000) into 875 or 87.. and it is the proportional ratio of the magnitides that people should take heed of, not the actual (or made-up) values.
 


Edited by Dean - January 10 2013 at 10:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2013 at 11:19
How is it when you compare not with other countries but with the same country over time? Did the UK have much more gun-related deaths when gun control laws were less strict (whenever that was)? Was the rate of gun deaths in the US higher or lower when gun control laws were more strict? 
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