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billbuckner ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: May 07 2006 Status: Offline Points: 433 |
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![]() ![]() (bottom left) ![]() Aerospace Web states:
Aerospace Web is not a partisan orginazation.
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
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All you CT maniacs - answer me a simple question:
Let's assume for a moment that there is a conspiracy, and that those behind it want us to believe that Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon. Now: Do you really believe that they would use a cruise missile instead, then brainwash all the witnesses, abduct the real plane and somehow let it disappear, then put fake debris at the Pentagon crash site ... ... or isn't it more likely that if it was a conspiracy that they simply abducted the plane and let it crash into the Pentagon? They could have simply installed a "remote control" if you will - that's a fairly easy thing to do for the military. |
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Fitzcarraldo ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1835 |
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billbuckner ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: May 07 2006 Status: Offline Points: 433 |
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More proof about the engines.
The 3rd Edition (2002) of the AirWays Magazine North American Airlines Handbook lists the engines of all of American Airline's 144 (at 2002) Boeing 757-200s as RR RB211-535E4B. The Handbook may be purchased here. http://www.airwaysmag.com/store/shop_detail.tpl?command=search&db=airways.db&eqskudata=A-23&cart=1148513332891 Edited by billbuckner - May 24 2006 at 19:34 |
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Fitzcarraldo ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1835 |
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VanderGraafKommandöh ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
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I know the 757-200 had Rolls-Royce engines... but none of what you've posted proves anything. Three blurred images. One piece of debris that is too small to determine what it is. And another piece that, again, even though it matches the colourscheme, it's not easily discernable as to where it's from on the 'plane
It would be interesting to see if there are closer photos that show more detail, I've yet to see any myself. Edit: I was referring to your first post of photographs. I want to see a photograph of a rotor hub from the RR engines used in 757-200s for comparison purposes. Edited by Geck0 - May 24 2006 at 19:42 |
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billbuckner ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: May 07 2006 Status: Offline Points: 433 |
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![]() Debris from a 757 landing gear, found at the Pentagon. ![]() More fusulage debris |
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Fitzcarraldo ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1835 |
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UPDATE: Further to my earlier post giving the results of my calculations, I e-mailed Mike Wilson and he kindly ran his 3D scale model to find out the position of the nose of the 757 that corresponds with the aircraft's position in the still frame from the video. He pointed out that the fisheye lens on the CCTV camera makes extrapolation of lines on drawings problematic, so his model is useful for these experiments. He found that the 757 nose was approximately 174 feet from the facade in the still from the video. He also viewed the 757 from the position of the CCTV camera with the nose at 205 feet from the facade, which was my rough estimate, and he told me the 757 tail was noticeably further away from the pedestal than in the still.
So, there you have it: the nose was approximately 174 feet from the Pentagon outer wall in the still frame of the video. So the end of the 757 was approximately 174 + 155 = 329 feet from the facade in the video still, giving a time for the end of the aircraft to reach the facade (if assuming no compression upon impact) of 329/506 = 0.65 seconds if the aircraft was travelling at 345 mph according to the flight data recorder (see my earlier post). If the interval between frames was indeed approximately one second as stated in the ASCE/SEI report then the distance for the tail to cover is *well* within the time between one frame and the next, i.e. it is highly plausible not to see the 757 on more than one frame of the Pentagon video.
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Fitzcarraldo ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1835 |
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^My previous post is the important post but, just for interest, here's a snapshot from a video of Mike Wilson's 3D scale model that he has on his Web site (I say "scale" but actually the model is full size in the sense that all dimensions in the computer model are the actual ones). I captured this still just before the 757's port wing hits the fifth lamp pole (five lamp poles were found pulled out of the ground and very badly damaged - you can find photos on various Web sites). It was possibly debris from one or more of these lamp poles that entered one or both engines and caused the smoke seen in the still from the Pentagon video, just to the right of the right pedestal at the security point.
Some of the computer modelling tools these days are amazing. To-scale and with full rendering. I have used AutoMod in the past, which is excellent, but it looks like SolidWorks - the tool used by Mike Wilson - is very cool too. He's done a very nice job with the model. BTW, lamp poles are designed to break off their pedestals relatively easily in the case of a car impact (for what I hope are obvious reasons). So it's not a surprise that the poles were knocked off their fixtures - albeit badly bent or broken - rather than staying upright and tearing through the wings.
![]() Edited by Fitzcarraldo - May 24 2006 at 23:31 |
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marktheshark ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: April 24 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1695 |
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What the hell are you talking about blurred images? They look pretty clear to me. Give it up will you! Good work guys, of course it won't steer any of these fantasists here. See what too much X-Files can do to you? ![]() |
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VanderGraafKommandöh ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
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I don't watch the X-Files!
![]() Blurred images! Edited by Geck0 - May 24 2006 at 23:47 |
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maani ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Founding Moderator Joined: January 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2632 |
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Sorry Fitz, I don’t buy the “scale model” above. Each floor of the building is between 10 and 12 feet high, given 8-10 foot ceilings and space between for wiring, etc. Thus, the fourth floor would be at least 40’ above the ground. We also know that the tail of a 757 is 44’ tall. Yet in the “scale model,” the tail barely reaches to the 3rd floor of the building. Uh-uh. His plane is way too small relative to the building as it is drawn in his simulation. Also, you offer the following quote: “Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at As for the alleged debris from a 757, how absolutely convenient that it was all in pieces small enough for people to pick up and carry. To say nothing of the fact that none of the shreds of the alleged fuselage had any scraping or burn marks. And there were only a handful: coincidentally just enough pieces – and with just enough red and blue on them - to claim they were from an AA 757. By the way, who are those people carrying the debris away? They certainly are not “first responders”; most of them are in suits and ties. Why were they allowed on the grounds - much less permitted to pick up “debris” from the “plane” and carry them away (where?)? As for the engine part, the wheel part, the landing strut part and the “rotor” part, while these may or may not be consistent with a 757, they are all also consistent with other commercial and non-commercial aircraft. And tell me, please, how it is that a wooden table and book in a room just four feet left of the impact zone were standing without a single singe mark from the fireball? (Go to: http://www.physics911.ca/Omholt:_9/11_and_The_Impossible_Pentagon, and scroll down about 5/6 of the way; daytime shot after collapse; look to left on 2nd floor; take the time to look at other photos as well). And why were the windows on the third floor just above the impact zone completely intact? I don’t care how much “reinforcement” was done; if the tail section was 44’ tall (and even the plane itself was 20’-30’ tall), if it was traveling at upwards of 450 miles per hour, there is no way on God’s earth (or in science) that the windows on the 3rd floor directly above the impact site would be left intact. Finally, and for the umpteenth time, if a 757 hit the Pentagon, why won’t the FBI release the other four videotapes of the crash? Either they don’t show the same thing as the Pentagon video, or the FBI (and others) are hard at work manipulating and editing the tapes so that they do show the same thing. Peace. P.S. to MeR: You say, “9/11 And The American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out" ... I wouldn't read a book that has such a biased and manipulative title.” You mean, unlike “The ‘Official’ 9/11 Commission Report” by a bunch of interest-conflicted cronies of the Bush and Clinton Administrations? LOL. Edited by maani - May 25 2006 at 00:15 |
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Fitzcarraldo ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1835 |
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Well, of course some do. Read, for example, the interview by the 'conspiracy theory' Web site owner with Mike Walker, one of the witnesses. I gave the URL of that site in an earlier post.
I could almost believe you are purposely being obtuse.
![]() The point I was hoping you would grasp is that a big jetliner - which, if it's patently big and obvious as it thunders over your head at 100 feet, 200 feet or whatever, will be FREAKING ENORMOUS when its 30 feet above you. Compare a jetliner that is 155 feet long with a wigspan of nearly 125 feet and a fuselage width of over 12 feet with a teeny, weeny cruise missle with a length of about 6 metres, diameter of 0.5 metres and wingspan of 2.7 metres.
Think, man: lengths: 155 feet versus 20 feet Wingspans: 125 feet versus 9 feet fuselages: 12 feet versus 1.6 feet (again: 12 feet versus 20 inches!) At 30 feet above your head (or whatever it is - the point it this is VERY, VERY close). Picture it. Think about it. Feel it. Now tell me that these people wouldn't appreciate the enormous difference between two such craft. (That's a rhetorical question, by the way. ![]() |
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maani ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Founding Moderator Joined: January 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2632 |
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FYI:
70 million Americans now believe that the government is covering up 9/11:
And a detailed look at the above:
Peace.
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maani ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Founding Moderator Joined: January 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2632 |
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Fitz:
With all due respect, some of us think that it is you (and MeR, bb et al) who seem to be "purposely obtuse." No missile? Fine. But no 757 either. Stalemate.
Peace.
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VanderGraafKommandöh ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
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Fitzcarraldo wrote:
BTW, lamp poles are designed to break off their pedestals relatively easily in the case of a car impact (for what I hope are obvious reasons). So it's not a surprise that the poles were knocked off their fixtures - albeit badly bent or broken - rather than staying upright and tearing through the wings. I've also read this. I've also read that if such poles were to easily break off on a highway after a vehicle has hit it, it could career off and hit other vehicles and/or cause accidents by blocking the road ahead (thus causing more devastation). Surely a light pole has electronics and wires inside it? How can a pole rip off with wires attached? Surely a light pole would be safer to all concerned, if they were to stay fixed to the ground? We don't have such light poles over here in the UK, from what I've seen, so it could be different over in the US. I know you've not read the newsletters I've cited and if you have, you've glossed over bits of it, as it goes into detail about a lot of the aspects covered. And as I've said before, the writer rules out not only a 757, but a missile also. He hasn't made a suggestion to what it could be though. There is a lot of defying the laws of physics going on here (as is the case with the WTC also). Edit: Also, if the witnesses were fake (as has been porported), then of course, the size of the aircraft makes no difference! This model looks a lot bigger: ![]() Edited by Geck0 - May 25 2006 at 00:51 |
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Fitzcarraldo ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1835 |
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Geck0, I have read it. In fact I came across it in my 'googling' before you posted the URL and was unimpressed. Let me give you just a couple of examples why: The guy's very first quote is incorrect! He's taken out of context the words of the very person who was interviewed by the site I referred to in an earlier post: Mike Walter! Read that, or at least the snippets I posted earlier.
And he discusses many, if not all, of the things raised on other Pentagon/Flight 77 sites (and I've lost count of the number I've visited in the last week). It's a litany of conjecture and speculation, and lack of specialist knowledge in many places. I've just scanned through it again and quickly found one quote to illustrate the quality of his analysis (and please don't expect me to post every paragraph of the site with a comment on it): "Next up is the photo to the right, which depicts ... uhhh, I have to be honest here -- I have no clue what it is supposed to be. Some kind of manifold or something. And it was discovered ... uhmm, somewhere in the Pentagon, I suppose, but that can't actually be determined from the photo. Obviously then it must be debris from Flight 77. To the left, jutting out prominently from a pile of indeterminate debris, and obviously better lit and in much sharper focus than other alleged interior shots of alleged aircraft debris, is what is claimed to be yet another component of a Boeing 757's apparently indestructible landing gear. Whatever." This is not the approach or language of methodological analysis that experts would use. Is it? Come on, be honest. How many technical reports or analyses have you read that contain that sort of talk? It's just arrant nonsense, even if he's trying to be sarcastic. Those of you who subscribe to the conspiracy theories are obviously not going to change your minds, and those people such as myself who think the crashes were basically as reported are not going to change our views when people trot out arguments like the above.
I have just scanned maani's latest post (and will read it carefully shortly, as I always do) and have noticed he mentions a wooden table and book. I'll look at the photograph but I'll wager it is the same or similar to a photograph on 'your' Web site. I am sure I have seen similar photos of houses damaged in the Blitz. Does that mean the Blitz was a conspiracy theory? Of course not. (I'm being facetious, but actually that is the sort of 'logic' some people are using.) I'd say I would look for examples to show you, but I know it would not change your opinion. If you look through the numerous 'conspiracy theory Web sites' -- and I'm sure I have not even scratched the surface so far -- there are so many 'conspiracy theories' (sometimes not even theories, just statements such as "impossible") to explain the same crash. Some of them I have encountered so far are: - A large airliner, but not a 757. And so on. I read words like "impossible" and "unbelievable" when some people refer to phenomena that are at odds with what they expect would have happened, or when the authors don't understand the phenomenon (the video stills is one example: to paraphrase "there is only one frame showing an aircraft, so the video MUST be fake". An un-burnt area of the building or other aspect of the crash is automatic proof that the crash was faked. Explosives or blasting experts and academics who study and model such effects may well have a scientific explanation. Un-burnt wreckage? Remember when Concorde, fully laden with fuel and burning badly just after takeoff, crashed into a small hotel in a fireball in 2000? There were scorched and un-scorched bits of aircraft wreckage then, some with parts of the Air France logo discernable. Not a directly comparable crash (which is what I would expect 'conspiracy theorists' to retort: that fact making it, to paraphrase, "impossible in the case of the Pentagon". Another speculation I have read is that the wreckage outside the Pentagon, and indeed inside the building, was planted. Read the interview of Mike Walter - as someone with media experience he said he made the conscious decision not to pick up the wreckage he saw as he made his way across to the Pentagon right after the impact, as he realised it was forensic evidence. But no doubt you have a theory to explain that too, parhaps along the lines of "There was some wreckage but other wreckage was planted afterwards". And so the theories go on. We'll just have to agree to disagree, as further to and fro is pointless.
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billbuckner ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: May 07 2006 Status: Offline Points: 433 |
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How were remains from the plane found at the scene, if the plane with
the Flight77 passengers didn't hit the damn Pentagon? How was debris
from Flight77 found?
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Bob Greece ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 1823 |
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They smashed up a new plane and scattered the parts around the Pentagon.
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billbuckner ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: May 07 2006 Status: Offline Points: 433 |
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Yeah, that'd be easy to do beside a crowded highway with nobody noticing.
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