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BaldFriede View Drop Down

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 04:19

Dean wrote:

garfunkel wrote:

No. Some folks believe that if there is an ordinance that "makes" everyone accept everyone, then racism, sexism and whatever other nonsense will go away. Safe spaces for everyone!

TeleStrat wrote:

You can be trained to do a lot of things but in the back of your mind you are going to think the way you've always thought. Only you can change the way you think.

Laws will not change human nature.

Laws can only control actions. They cannot control thoughts, opinions or beliefs.

As I said in an earlier post: "you cannot legislate against prejudice, you can only legislate against using prejudice to discriminate". If we permit discrimination then we are condoning prejudice. If you cultivate a society where prejudice is tolerated then you will never be able to educate people to think differently.

Racial prejudice has not gone away and it never will, and sexism and homophobia will never go away, but we can change the attitudes and perceptions of a significant majority of the population.

Exactly, Dean. Racial prejudice has to do with the stone age man inside us. What looks unfamiliar is dangerous. This is inherent in all of us. It takes a conscious effort to overcome this feeling.

BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.

lazland

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 05:09

BaldFriede wrote:

Dean wrote:

TeleStrat wrote:

You can be trained to do a lot of things but in the back of your mind you are going to think the way you've always thought. Only you can change the way you think.

Laws will not change human nature.

Laws can only control actions. They cannot control thoughts, opinions or beliefs.

As I said in an earlier post: "you cannot legislate against prejudice, you can only legislate against using prejudice to discriminate". If we permit discrimination then we are condoning prejudice. If you cultivate a society where prejudice is tolerated then you will never be able to educate people to think differently.

Racial prejudice has not gone away and it never will, and sexism and homophobia will never go away, but we can change the attitudes and perceptions of a significant majority of the population.

Exactly, Dean. Racial prejudice has to do with the stone age man inside us. What looks unfamiliar is dangerous. This is inherent in all of us. It takes a conscious effort to overcome this feeling.

I don't think it is as simple as that, Friede. People can be very fearful of the effect of issues such as mass immigration and cultural implications without being racially prejudiced. That is not a Stone Age gene, lurking inside of us, awaiting cultural extermination, much as the liberal establishment would like it to be.

My grandmother was a Maltese immigrant to Britain in the 1940's, as a result of my English grandfather being posted back home during the war, so I have absolutely no issue with the movement of peoples. However, with the massive change that globalisation is bringing to indigenous working class people, the reaction against further denigration of their jobs, pay, social provisions, etc, are entirely understandable, and a conundrum which European governments have yet to provide a credible answer to. Ditto America, btw.

Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!

BaldFriede View Drop Down

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 05:16

I think you misunderstood me. I was not referring to mass immigration at all. That is a completely different issue. Actually the topic of mass immigration is used to instill fears in people, even by some of the democratic parties, and then to play on these fears.

BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.

Triceratopsoil View Drop Down

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 12:35

A Person wrote:

I've seen numbers like 40% of all homeless youth being LGBT, it's crazy.

Is that legitimately discrimination, or related to other issues?

RayRo wrote:

but we have nothing but hate crimes here, it seems.

If you honestly believe that, you need to look at some crime stats

Edited by Triceratopsoil - November 10 2015 at 12:36

RayRo

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 14:11

Triceratopsoil wrote:

A Person wrote:

I've seen numbers like 40% of all homeless youth being LGBT, it's crazy.

Is that legitimately discrimination, or related to other issues?

RayRo wrote:

but we have nothing but hate crimes here, it seems.

If you honestly believe that, you need to look at some crime stats

If you don't know what the expression "it seems" generally means, you should do yourself a favor and find out.

Edit: You probably need a hint. It's related to appearance .

Edited by RayRo - November 10 2015 at 14:19

RayRo

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 14:48

TeleStrat wrote:

You can be trained to do a lot of things but in the back of your mind you are going to think the way you've always thought. Only you can change the way you think.

Laws will not change human nature.

Laws can only control actions. They cannot control thoughts, opinions or beliefs.

Yes, as I've stated before, it is not the purpose of Law to change human nature. But it can have conscious or subliminal effects on some individual's thinking, similar to someone reading the Ten Commandments.

"Thou shalt not kill." So killing must be bad. Why? Because the Bible said not to do it. The Bible does not explain why killing is bad, it just says not to do it.

Now before people go off halfcocked, I want to say that I'm an atheist and I'm only using the above as an example.

But the bottom line is that Law is an ever changing set of rules that fluctuate, generally, as social mores change.

That's why some laws are repealed over time. And some never are or never will be repealed, or fall out of favor, over time.

I personally have a tough time with seatbelt laws. It's my life, my health and my car. Why should some government agency force me to wear a seatbelt when I drive?

But for the few laws that I object to, I'm grateful for the other thousands that stand on the books.

Only a foolish person would fail to see value in Law. Civilization is built upon it. Hammurabi's Code was an ancient set of laws that made modern civilization possible.

Until next time. Keep the faith.

Edited by RayRo - November 10 2015 at 17:34

*frinspar* View Drop Down

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 16:43

You're arguing against a lot of things that no one here has said, and making a lot of general statements based on your own beliefs that aren't helping you get your point across. I'm still not entirely sure what you hoped to achieve by opening this particular discussion here.

No one's said we shouldn't have laws, or anything close to it. Focus your energy a little better.

And, as far as how things "seem" to you, if you spent more time arguing the facts then you might not meet with such regular resistance. Jus' sayin'. Smile

RayRo

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 17:00

^I'm sorry that I don't have time to reply to each individual post that I've addressed. The people that have questioned the validly of laws, or assumed to know what their functions are, were answered.

I'm an attorney, so time is tight for me at times. But the people who asked specific questions will know which statements of mine are relevant to their inquires or assumptions.

And stating facts are not arguments. Arguments are arguments and I've put forth very few.

Edited by RayRo - November 10 2015 at 17:03

*frinspar* View Drop Down

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 17:09

Curiouser and curiouser...
Hokay! :)

The Dark Elf View Drop Down

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 17:12

RayRo wrote:

....But it can have conscious or subliminal effects on some individual's thinking, similar to someone reading the Ten Commandants.

The Ten Commandants? Was that written by‎ Boris Pasternak's slightly addled cousin, Timmy?

RayRo wrote:

"Thou shalt not kill." So killing must be bad. Why? Because the Bible said not to do it. The Bible does not explain why killing is bad, it just says not to do it.

Ummm....as an atheist, I'm not much of a defender of the bible; however, having read scripture on a number of occasions, I must say there are a sufficient amount of biblical passages that effectively illuminate why killing is bad.

...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

RayRo

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 17:39

The Dark Elf wrote:

RayRo wrote:

The Ten Commandants? Was that written by‎ Boris Pasternak's slightly addled cousin, Timmy?

In the rush I'm in right now, I'll say yes.

RayRo wrote:

"Thou shalt not kill." So killing must be bad. Why? Because the Bible said not to do it. The Bible does not explain why killing is bad, it just says not to do it.

And that's the extent of my biblical knowledge. I know that the Ten Commandments are based on "thou shalt", not on "why thou shalt". Do you dig me?

Edited by RayRo - November 10 2015 at 17:47

The Dark Elf View Drop Down

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 17:59

RayRo wrote:

The Dark Elf wrote:

RayRo wrote:

The Ten Commandants? Was that written by‎ Boris Pasternak's slightly addled cousin, Timmy?

In the rush I'm in right now, I'll say yes.

RayRo wrote:

"Thou shalt not kill." So killing must be bad. Why? Because the Bible said not to do it. The Bible does not explain why killing is bad, it just says not to do it.

And that's the extent of my biblical knowledge. I know that the Ten Commandments are based on "thou shalt", not on "why thou shalt". Do you dig me?

No, I don't dig you. If the extent of your biblical knowledge does not go further then what Charlton Heston rattled off in a movie, then you aren't really qualified to make blanket statements about it. The Ten Commandments are a culmination of Hebraic law; there are ample reasons for each commandment with extensive passages bolstering them in the Torah.

If one reads the various articles of the U.S. Constitution and its amendments, they are basically "thou shalt" statements without any "why thou shalt" explanations, like the First Amendment, for instance:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

There is no "why thou shalt" in that statement; however, there are reams of case law and precedents backing it.

...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

RayRo

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 18:04

The Dark Elf wrote:

RayRo wrote:

The Dark Elf wrote:

RayRo wrote:

The Ten Commandants? Was that written by‎ Boris Pasternak's slightly addled cousin, Timmy?

In the rush I'm in right now, I'll say yes.

RayRo wrote:

"Thou shalt not kill." So killing must be bad. Why? Because the Bible said not to do it. The Bible does not explain why killing is bad, it just says not to do it.

And that's the extent of my biblical knowledge. I know that the Ten Commandments are based on "thou shalt", not on "why thou shalt". Do you dig me?

There is no "why thou shalt" in that statement; however, there are reams of case law and precedents backing it.

If you can find commentaries in the following, please point them out:

1st	I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.	1st	I am the LORD thy God. Thou shalt have no strange gods before Me.
2nd	Exodus 20:4-6 You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my Commandments.		Deleted. See also idolatry in the Catholic Church (There is idolatry in the Papal system so the second Commandment has been deleted or sometimes it has been absorbed into the first. All remaining Commandments are therefore shifted along one count.)
3rd	Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God In vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.	2nd	Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.
4th	Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.	3rd	Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day. (The Sabbath is the fourth Commandment by normal count. The day to be kept is no longer mentioned since they changed the Sabbath to Sunday.) (Note that God had more to say about the fourth Commandment than all others and with good reason. It is very important.)
5th	Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.	4th	Honour thy father and thy mother.
6th	Thou shalt not kill.	5th	Thou shalt not kill.
7th	Thou shalt not commit adultery.	6th	Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8th	Thou shalt not steal.	7th	Thou shalt not steal.
9th	Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.	8th	Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10th	Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.	9th	Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife. (The Tenth Commandment is split into two to get back to Ten Commandments.)
		10th	Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods.

Edited by RayRo - November 10 2015 at 18:29

RayRo

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 18:14

^Now, I don't like to discuss the obvious influence of Judeo-Christian religion on American laws and statutes because I've passed my Bar Exam and find it boring.

But if it floats your boat, by all means, knock yourself out.

The Dark Elf View Drop Down

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 18:47

RayRo wrote:

The Dark Elf wrote:

RayRo wrote:

The Dark Elf wrote:

RayRo wrote:

The Ten Commandants? Was that written by‎ Boris Pasternak's slightly addled cousin, Timmy?

In the rush I'm in right now, I'll say yes.

RayRo wrote:

"Thou shalt not kill." So killing must be bad. Why? Because the Bible said not to do it. The Bible does not explain why killing is bad, it just says not to do it.

And that's the extent of my biblical knowledge. I know that the Ten Commandments are based on "thou shalt", not on "why thou shalt". Do you dig me?

There is no "why thou shalt" in that statement; however, there are reams of case law and precedents backing it.

If you can find commentaries in the following, please point them out:

Again, there are several hundred pages of the Torah that quantify the Law found in the Ten Commandments...obviously that amount of loquacity could not be chiseled onto two stone tablets.

...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

The Dark Elf View Drop Down

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 19:21

RayRo wrote:

Look, I know where your coming from. But laws started, as I said, with the Sumerians. Hebraic laws derived from them.

I've studied the history of Law in depth, but I just don't find that to be relevant to my stand alone example of "thou shalt not kill." That particular phrase in that portion of the Bible did not have any commentary. What came latter, to me, is irrelevant.

And many Hebraic commentaries such as the Talmud did not come about until the 2nd Century C.E.

Perhaps you should check this out a bit more before you say more.

I highlighted your comment because you seem to have a disconnect in regards to your alleged knowledge and what you actually stated.

As you said yourself, you have no clue about the bible, save for the bits and pieces you wish to spew and denigrate. Perhaps you should do more research before referring to Talmudic commentary without first reading Exodus and Deuteronomy, which further detail the covenantal summarization of the Commandments. Leviticus is also a gateway to understanding the Commandments as they were written by the priestly caste to bolster the patriarchal system of the Hebrews

Again -- and perhaps you should read this s-l-o-w-l-y in order to gain comprehension -- the Amendments to the Constitution do not explain "why" they have been amended into the document, but there is ample legal background to back them up for inclusion.

Edited by The Dark Elf - November 10 2015 at 19:22

...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

RayRo

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 19:30

The Dark Elf wrote:

Again, there are several hundred pages of the Torah that quantify the Law found in the Ten Commandments...obviously that amount of loquacity could not be chiseled onto two stone tablets.

I just realized that you don't have a clue about what we are talking about.

The Torah or the first five books of the Bible are laws without commentary.

The Talmudic commentaries did not come about until the 200's C.E. Two hundred year after Christ lived and died. The Talmud is what explains the laws and tells you the reasons Why.

Perhaps you should check things out a bit more before you go through all this foolish exposition.

If you were trying to impress me, you failed.

Edited by RayRo - November 10 2015 at 19:37

The Dark Elf View Drop Down

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 19:39

RayRo wrote:

I just realized that you don't have a clue about what we are talking about....

...Perhaps you check things out a bit more before you go through all this foolish exposition.

I can only go on your own stated ignorance:

RayRo wrote:

And that's the extent of my biblical knowledge.

Suddenly, you wish to pronounce an expertise which obviously doesn't exist, save for pulling flawed gems from Wikipedia.

Stay thirsty, my friend.

...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

RayRo

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 19:43

You can also look up this 2nd Century Judaic text called the Midrash. It is also the other key commentary on the Biblical laws.

Again, sad. Just sad.

And if anyone sounds like they are surfing Wiki, it's you my friend. Without a doubt, as you are truly clueless.

Edited by RayRo - November 10 2015 at 19:45

Dean

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Posted: November 10 2015 at 19:47

the tone of this exchange is starting to look all too familiar.

What?