The (Factually) Greatest Drummer

It's alright to have the speed measured by a "drumometer" but can the human ear really discriminate 1247 bpm and tell the difference between it and a roll at 900 bpm? Even if speed would be an element for judging musical pleasure, if our ear can not really tell the difference and we need a machine to measure the difference, the exercise is technically admirable but pointless.

Edited by Gerinski - September 23 2012 at 05:22

^^^ I don't necessarily agree completely on those points.   A singer who can sing beyond the human auditive spectrum would most likely also possess the strength to hit much more pleasing, much stronger 'normal' high notes.   A drummer who can play at some insane BPM obviously has the ability to play very fast and may be able to do it quite effortlessly, which also creates a more pleasing effect.   What is for sure is that those are very limited facets of what makes a drummer or a singer or any other musician amazing.  I don't think this even needs to be spelt out.  But just because things like highest pitches or BPMs can be measured doesn't mean they are highly relevant.  Unfortunately or fortunately, some of the most important qualities that a great musician possesses tend to be subjective and unquantifiable.  I am ok with it, I wanted to listen to musicians, not geeks after all.

HolyMoly wrote: I think that people here who are criticizing Geoff for his inconsistency (i.e. "it's all a matter of preference" on one hand, but then "the factually greatest drummer" on the other hand) are kind of missing the point of the thread.  I think there was always a bit of winking irony in his tone from the get-go, and the thread merely seems to say: - we all know that "greatest" is a matter of preference - but occasionally there ARE quantitative methods to measure skill - such as this drumming speed record - which my main man in DT has just BROKEN - woo hoo - take that, you dogs, ha ha Just a fun way to bait the people who tend to react negatively any time Dream Theater is mentioned.  It's not saying, "aha! now they've finally proven that he's the greatest!", but more of a philosophical query, "in the absence of any other objective, quantifiable methods to measure 'greatness', couldn't one theoretically conclude that Mangini is the greatest?"   I don't think the answer to the latter question is an unqualified "Yes", but it's not a stupid question either.  It's worthy of discussion and there's no need to have to paint things in black and white - as usual, the answer is somewhere in the middle. I'm not particularly impressed by drumming speed, but I have to admit that it does undeniably put a drummer at an advantage.  Those messengers in Ancient Greece had to be able to run fast to get the job done.  Of course I'd want to hire a person who has intelligence and common sense, but it would help if he could run fast too.

HolyMoly wrote:   Those messengers in Ancient Greece had to be able to run fast to get the job done.  Of course I'd want to hire a person who has intelligence and common sense, but it would help if he could run fast too.

So, we have a tendency to shoot the messenger.

Run, Pheidippides, one race more! the meed is thy due!

'Athens is saved, thank Pan,' go shout!" He flung down his shield,

Ran like fire once more: and the space 'twixt the Fennel-field .

And Athens was stubble again, a field which a fire runs through,

Till in he broke: "Rejoice, we conquer!" Like wine thro' clay,

Joy in his blood bursting his heart, he died--the bliss!

 

- Robert Browning

Edited by Dean - September 23 2012 at 06:24

Gerinski wrote: Buddy Rich or Gene Krupa's snare rolls were fast enough for me to "sound as a really fast snare roll",.

How great is Gene Krupa, right? Man, what a drummer he was.

^Barrie Barlow is pretty amazing. Especially on Heavy Horses

dtguitarfan wrote: thellama73 wrote: I think it's interesting that the OP keeps saying "it's just a matter of preference" and chastising people for being ishonest in their reviews and not acknowledging this, but then he makes threads  with titles like "the factually best drummer" and links articles like "why you should listen to dream theater." A little inconsistent there, guy. Haha, you've got to see there's some bit of joking going on here.  Mangini is the best in the only measurement - the only way it can be fact.  And I happen to like him the best so I love to point that out.  I happen to think he's also good at other things besides being fast, and like him best because of that, and that's just preference.

thellama73 wrote: I think it's interesting that the OP keeps saying "it's just a matter of preference" and chastising people for being ishonest in their reviews and not acknowledging this, but then he makes threads  with titles like "the factually best drummer" and links articles like "why you should listen to dream theater." A little inconsistent there, guy.

I think the whole thread was in response to the "raters who suck" discussion; it was "playing at your own game," if that makes any sense.

HolyMoly wrote: I think that people here who are criticizing Geoff for his inconsistency (i.e. "it's all a matter of preference" on one hand, but then "the factually greatest drummer" on the other hand) are kind of missing the point of the thread.  I think there was always a bit of winking irony in his tone from the get-go, and the thread merely seems to say: - we all know that "greatest" is a matter of preference - but occasionally there ARE quantitative methods to measure skill - such as this drumming speed record - which my main man in DT has just BROKEN - woo hoo - take that, you dogs, ha ha Just a fun way to bait the people who tend to react negatively any time Dream Theater is mentioned.  It's not saying, "aha! now they've finally proven that he's the greatest!", but more of a philosophical query, "in the absence of any other objective, quantifiable methods to measure 'greatness', couldn't one theoretically conclude that Mangini is the greatest?"   I don't think the answer to the latter question is an unqualified "Yes", but it's not a stupid question either.  It's worthy of discussion and there's no need to have to paint things in black and white - as usual, the answer is somewhere in the middle. I'm not particularly impressed by drumming speed, but I have to admit that it does undeniably put a drummer at an advantage.  Those messengers in Ancient Greece had to be able to run fast to get the job done.  Of course I'd want to hire a person who has intelligence and common sense, but it would help if he could run fast too.

And Steve just said it better than I ever could.


Edited by Ambient Hurricanes - September 23 2012 at 11:15

Wow, after participating in this thread for most of its existence, I finally watched the world record video.

The number of hits on the drumometer looked like the price going up when I fill my car with gas...

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: I think the whole thread was in response to the "raters who suck" discussion; it was "playing at your own game," if that makes any sense.

Well, I wouldn't say it was directly in response to that discussion, but I guess kind of inspired by that.  Steve (HolyMoly) did pretty much hit it on the head with his assessment of this thread though.  A very well put assessment of what's going on in this thread, and I liked the "take that you dogs, haha" part.