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Zac M 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 03 2005
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Points: 3577
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 Posted: February 04 2007 at 19:32 |
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That's not what I said.....
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"Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression."
-Merleau-Ponty
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: February 04 2007 at 19:33 |
 BaldFriede wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
... a God that arrives at such a great variety of organisms through such a complicated process as evolution via mutation and selection... |
Now you’re talking. And talking like a real creationist. |
Excuse me???? I am what??? Please read the whole paragraph again.
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You like making people re-reading your stuff. There's no need. It's not that complicated. Convoluted maybe
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: February 04 2007 at 19:34 |
Zac M wrote:
That's not what I said.....
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?????????????
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Zac M
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Joined: July 03 2005
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Points: 3577
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Posted: February 04 2007 at 19:36 |
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What do you want me to say?
Evolution does exist, I've studied experiments, written papers, etc....
I could never believe intelligent design, like I said, I think it's all BS. I've heard a lecture on it. It's just another term for creationism.
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"Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression."
-Merleau-Ponty
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 04:27 |
Zac M wrote:
What do you want me to say?
Evolution does exist, I've studied experiments, written papers, etc....
I could never believe intelligent design, like I said, I think it's all BS. I've heard a lecture on it. It's just another term for creationism.
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If I may............
Intelligent design (or creationism) is not complete BS. It is an ill-advised attempt from the christians to modernize their views, adapt them to today's science. Sort of a last ditch effort to remain credible.
Obviously their "good" book (gone a little stale with today's knowledge) and their theories needed a modernization in order to remain credible in the credulous and gullible followers' eyes , so they came up with this theory by appropriating part of Darwin's theories. They also had to adapt once they realized how wrong they had been after Galileo was excommunicated for finding out that the Earth revolved around the sun and not the opposita as was thought before.
But the fact that they admit to a certain evolution is rather a good thing (and a non-committing feeling of guilt about misleading their flocks) , even in their lame terms the creationism) , it represents some kind of progress.
Pretty soon, they'll include themselves in that intelligent design theory, since they are evolving too.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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mystic fred
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Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
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Points: 4252
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 14:37 |
if so-called "intelligent design" exists, why isn't everything perfect? for example what happened on Mars? why isn't it a world supporting life? surely these intelligent designers could have fixed it couldn't they? 
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 Prog Archives Tour Van 
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darkmatter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 23 2006
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 2760
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 14:42 |
mystic fred wrote:
if so-called "intelligent design" exists, why isn't everything perfect? for example what happened on Mars? why isn't it a world supporting life? surely these intelligent designers could have fixed it couldn't they?
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Very true, the biggest flaw of intelligent design I can see.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 14:53 |
mystic fred wrote:
if so-called "intelligent design" exists, why isn't everything perfect? for example what happened on Mars? why isn't it a world supporting life? surely these intelligent designers could have fixed it couldn't they?
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Define perfect? It's subjective, and in the eyes of a creator, maybe mars turned out just as it wanted it to.
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 14:56 |
mystic fred wrote:
if so-called "intelligent design" exists, why isn't everything perfect? for example what happened on Mars? why isn't it a world supporting life? surely these intelligent designers could have fixed it couldn't they?
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Hmm lets think where has humanity screwed up really badly? Oh wait I know! Genesis. The idea of original sin. Sin corrupted the earth.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 15:00 |
progismylife wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
if so-called "intelligent design" exists, why isn't everything perfect? for example what happened on Mars? why isn't it a world supporting life? surely these intelligent designers could have fixed it couldn't they?
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Hmm lets think where has humanity screwed up really badly?
Oh wait I know! Genesis. The idea of original sin. Sin corrupted the earth.
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That's where I think the literal interpretation of creation gets silly. It's a complete metaphor in my mind. Besides, we're born, and we've already got blood on our hands for something we did not do. If you ask me, it seems unbecoming of a supreme god to believe that he would create something in his image and have it fail on him and then doom all humanity unless they repent for their sins. By creating man in his image, and having man fail, is that not like saying God failed? It should not be interpreted literally IMO.
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
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Points: 15535
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 15:05 |
Okay the tree in the middle of the garden was a test that could have been easily passed but man decided to (of his own free will) disobey God. The fruit was a metaphor for the knowledge of good and evil. It tainted the first humans and thy passed it on to their children - the knowledge of good and evil.
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Neil
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Joined: October 04 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1497
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 15:08 |
Intelligent design still basically says that the universe to the creator is as a train set is to a model enthusiast. Not really very credible.
As far as we can measure at present the universe is so big that our planet is less relevant to the universe than one molecule of water in the ocean is to our planet. Therefore if intelligent design made the universe how come so much time was spent on something less relevant than a drop of water? Interesting thought. 
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When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory.
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stonebeard
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Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 15:08 |
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I know the story, but I find it offensive to my intellect actually. So two people do something wrong and every human after them pays the price. Yeah, alright. Not to mention that having knowledge of good and evil if portrayed as a bad thing.
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 15:12 |
stonebeard wrote:
I know the story, but I find it offensive to my intellect actually. So two people do something wrong and every human after them pays the price. Yeah, alright. Not to mention that having knowledge of good and evil if portrayed as a bad thing.
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They were perfect to start with and got corrupted. Knowledge of evil was the main thing. Releasing evil on the world (sort of like Pandora's box) is pretty bad and does affect the rest of humanity.
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 15:14 |
Heavyfreight wrote:
Intelligent design still basically says that the universe to the creator is as a train set is to a model enthusiast. Not really very credible.
As far as we can measure at present the universe is so big that our planet is less relevant to the universe than one molecule of water in the ocean is to our planet. Therefore if intelligent design made the universe how come so much time was spent on something less relevant than a drop of water? Interesting thought. |
Maybe so much time wasn't spent on one thing. I don't deny that there could be other planets out there. In fact there is an interesting science fiction book by C.S. Lewis that had things about alien life on other planets and stuff like that. It was really interesting.
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 15:17 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Zac M wrote:
What do you want me to say?
Evolution does exist, I've studied experiments, written papers, etc....
I could never believe intelligent design, like I said, I think it's all BS. I've heard a lecture on it. It's just another term for creationism.
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If I may............
Intelligent design (or creationism) is not complete BS. It is an ill-advised attempt from the christians to modernize their views, adapt them to today's science. Sort of a last ditch effort to remain credible.
Obviously their "good" book (gone a little stale with today's knowledge) and their theories needed a modernization in order to remain credible in the credulous and gullible followers' eyes , so they came up with this theory by appropriating part of Darwin's theories. They also had to adapt once they realized how wrong they had been after Galileo was excommunicated for finding out that the Earth revolved around the sun and not the opposita as was thought before.You know that was the Catholic church and in Isaiah it does mention that the earth is an orb floating in space going around the sun
But the fact that they admit to a certain evolution is rather a good thing (and a non-committing feeling of guilt about misleading their flocks) , even in their lame terms the creationism) , it represents some kind of progress.
Pretty soon, they'll include themselves in that intelligent design theory, since they are evolving too. |
Oh and another thing the Bible isn't "going stale" as you like to put it. Have you ever read the psalms? Some of those are really good bits of information. Same with Proverbs.
Edited by progismylife - February 05 2007 at 15:19
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mystic fred
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Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
Status: Offline
Points: 4252
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 15:35 |
progismylife wrote:
Heavyfreight wrote:
Intelligent design still basically says that the universe to the creator is as a train set is to a model enthusiast. Not really very credible.
As far as we can measure at present the universe is so big that our planet is less relevant to the universe than one molecule of water in the ocean is to our planet. Therefore if intelligent design made the universe how come so much time was spent on something less relevant than a drop of water? Interesting thought. |
Maybe so much time wasn't spent on one thing.
I don't deny that there could be other planets out there. In fact there is an interesting science fiction book by C.S. Lewis that had things about alien life on other planets and stuff like that. It was really interesting.
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I stayed up late to watch a fascinating "Sky at Night" programme last night, which covered the subject of Mars exploration which i've been thinking about all day - to the delight of their inventor those little tracked robots are still trundling around up there after 2 years, and have even been given new tasks. On the dodgy subject of are there , or are there not .....space people (that sounds familiar - who said that?  ), Patrick Moore said there MUST be planets in the outer universe (our solar system is just the back yard) that support intelligent life, which I believe could look exactly the same as us, they may even visit us one day - do they believe in the same God -do we share the same creator?
are there space people on these planets who believe we don't exist? 
do they play music? ...what i wouldn't give to hear some!
Edited by mystic fred - February 05 2007 at 16:39
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Prog Archives Tour Van
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Jeams Pfirp
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 03 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 163
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 20:18 |
mystic fred wrote:
progismylife wrote:
Heavyfreight wrote:
Intelligent design still basically says that the universe to the creator is as a train set is to a model enthusiast. Not really very credible.
As far as we can measure at present the universe is so big that our planet is less relevant to the universe than one molecule of water in the ocean is to our planet. Therefore if intelligent design made the universe how come so much time was spent on something less relevant than a drop of water? Interesting thought. |
Maybe so much time wasn't spent on one thing.
I don't deny that there could be other planets out there. In fact there is an interesting science fiction book by C.S. Lewis that had things about alien life on other planets and stuff like that. It was really interesting.
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I stayed up late to watch a fascinating "Sky at Night" programme last night, which covered the subject of Mars exploration which i've been thinking about all day - to the delight of their inventor those little tracked robots are still trundling around up there after 2 years, and have even been given new tasks. On the dodgy subject of are there , or are there not .....space people (that sounds familiar - who said that? ), Patrick Moore said there MUST be planets in the outer universe (our solar system is just the back yard) that support intelligent life, which I believe could look exactly the same as us, they may even visit us one day - do they believe in the same God -do we share the same creator?
are there space people on these planets who believe we don't exist?
do they play music? ...what i wouldn't give to hear some!
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That's thought provoking.
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rileydog22
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 8844
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 20:20 |
stonebeard wrote:
I know the story, but I find it offensive to my intellect actually. So two people do something wrong and every human after them pays the price. Yeah, alright. Not to mention that having knowledge of good and evil if portrayed as a bad thing.
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I think it's a quite nice parable if you're a priest trying to keep people from ditching Christianity; "Adam and Eve are sinners because they tried to gain knowledge! God will hate you if you gain knowledge, because if you're smart, you'll realize there's no logic behind religion!" Yet another display of church-led ignorance.  That's how I see it anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see no other moral, besides "don't learn things!"
Edited by rileydog22 - February 05 2007 at 20:30
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Zac M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 03 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: February 05 2007 at 22:16 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Zac M wrote:
What do you want me to say?
Evolution does exist, I've studied experiments, written papers, etc....
I could never believe intelligent design, like I said, I think it's all BS. I've heard a lecture on it. It's just another term for creationism.
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If I may............
Intelligent design (or creationism) is not complete BS. It is an ill-advised attempt from the christians to modernize their views, adapt them to today's science. Sort of a last ditch effort to remain credible.
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of course, i got a little bit ahead of myself  i just can't see how someone can believe this stuff. it's good to have differing opinions though, no doubt.
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"Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression."
-Merleau-Ponty
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|
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Creationism/Intelligent Design
