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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Guns, mass shootings, and related.
    Posted: December 19 2012 at 07:48
As per Jim's request. Leave News of the Day for News.
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Points: 14693 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 09:10
Thanks - although I'd have thought the thread title should be something lilke "Gun Control Debate Thread" or some such... again, just a thought

I'll go away now...

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 09:25
Edit at will Jim. I know I wasn't too inspired in the title
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Points: 3595 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 09:29
I been up since 4AM (EST) I've swallowed three large cups of coffee and my chest hurts. GOBGOBGOBGOBGOB! 

Dark days are upon us!

Actually, I have related input:

I have cousins and relatives planning for December 21st. They've got vests strapped and packed with shotgun shells and are making homebrew weapons and setting hunting traps and planning on barricading their house from travelers in case electricity gets knocked out and sends us into chaos.
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 09:40
I'm worried about people going apesh*t that day. Clearly, nothing is going to happen. But people in a panic do crazy things. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 34083 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 09:50
i once or twice shot with an air gun 
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Points: 3595 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 09:53
We survived the Crucifixion, Y2K and reality TV, we can survive this. Merc merc mercurial lightnin' McQueen daggerskin Alexander Graham Bale of Hey Tonight was a pretty good song offa CCR's England swing like a pendulum do bonnies on bicycles two by two westminster Abbey Road.. No more Hot Dogs.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 09:57
I have serious doubts about the intelligence of anybody who actually fears anything will happen on the 21st.

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Points: 34083 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 10:04
krrrmt krrmt supervulcano krrmt krrmt Stern Smile
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 10:30
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I have serious doubts about the intelligence of anybody who actually fears anything will happen on the 21st.


Yes, let's mix Christmas shopping at the malls with mass hysteria. I personally will be staying at home, not because I believe something will happen but because online shopping works for me.
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Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 10:38
Mad sh*t is going down on the 21 beware! My old dad turns 70. I hope he manages to get a few snaps before the big showdown....

Guns? They shoot.
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 11:57
Photo: More funny pics: http://bit.ly/9AaK3U
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 12:07
This is now the end of the world 2012 thread.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 12:35
Such a subject degradation. Basically we are the history channel of threads: grab a subject title and dumb it down to the maximum degree.
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Points: 6797 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 12:40
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

A question not often raised outside criminological circles is this: "How much crime (murders, burglaries, rapes, etc.) is prevented by responsible gun owners?"

Tough Targets, is an interesting and enlightening read thus far on defensive gun use. It offers a critical look at previous studies on the subject and the available data set. It compares and contrasts two universities in the same state, one that allowed concealed carry and one that prohibited firearms, and reported on their on-campus crime rates. In the appendix, it recounts numerous self-defense stories.

The question above is a question anyone serious about the gun debate in America should answer before pronouncing a broad judgment against firearms themselves. The report can be found here:

Tough Targets

By the way, there is a school district in Texas that has permitted faculty to carry weapons for going on five years.
Couple of questions Epi. If Teachers are armed will you force them to be armed? If someone refuses to carry a gun will they be unable to be a teacher? When they get a little old and their arm gets shakey? Will it be the teacher who gets the blame if they don't react as expected when confronted by a lunatic?
Also, you make yourself very clear about banning guns but what about only banning certain types of guns of the type being discussed.? I can't see the day when the states bans guns anyway. And I understand your argument.


I would not want to see a teacher required to carry a weapon, no. I'm not even in favor of saying "All districts must have armed teachers." I think that should be up to the districts themselves.

But if we entrust adults with our children, we should theoretically be able to entrust them with anything, including a gun, don't you think? The attitude that a "gun free zone" is best and the idea of armed teachers is "extreme" or a terrible proposition on its face is unreasonable.

As for specific guns, I don't think banning things keeps us any safer. People who really want something will find a way to get it. People who want to kill will try to kill.
I don't think it follows that if we trust a teacher with the education and care of our children that we would trust them to carry a gun around them and act as security. I'm really not sure the type of person that makes a good teacher of five year olds would also be the same person that would be able to shoot someone dead while that person is aiming a gun at them and the class. Especially as I am sure that they would be worried that they kill the very people they are asked to protect. How can you change from playing games with children to being able to kill in a second. I could also envisage a teacher losing it in the classroom and shooting the children after a hard day!
With the majority of the recent mass killings the arms have been obtained legally. With the most recent he got them from his mother. I don't think that with these types of senseless killings that the perpetrator would go out of his way into the criminal world to obtain this type of gun. Of course this is not always the case but why would you want to keep them legal? Why make it easy fo someone with mental issues to do this?
Why would anyone want them? I can only think that they want them for gangland murder or with this idea that American society is so fragile that they need them to protect themselves when it (society) breaks down. They surely can't be kept under the pillow in case of a burglar?
Your link doesn't work.
 
Oh well Just realised new thread so I moved it!
Help me I'm falling!
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Points: 10841 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 12:54
So, this new massacre is supposed to be big news in the USA? I thought the American were used to this kind of things now. 
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 13:13
What a classy predictable joke. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 3595 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 13:21
Yeah the coleslaw (I mean wholesale) slaughter of citizenry is old-hat. That's been done. Isn't LA due for another race riot? Ho-hum, what a bore. Child slayings are cheesy these days - outta style. If he'd really been smart he would've started a youtube video podcast cult. That seems reasonable. I bet it'd even fix that wily economy. Can't you just see it? Wile E. Conomy getting hammered AGAIN by a vicious deficit Acme anvil? When will he ever learn? Rascally fellow. 

Whaddaya call a Lockheed-Martin LGB that can solve advanced calculus problems?

A smart bomb, haw!
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 15:53
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

A question not often raised outside criminological circles is this: "How much crime (murders, burglaries, rapes, etc.) is prevented by responsible gun owners?"

Tough Targets, is an interesting and enlightening read thus far on defensive gun use. It offers a critical look at previous studies on the subject and the available data set. It compares and contrasts two universities in the same state, one that allowed concealed carry and one that prohibited firearms, and reported on their on-campus crime rates. In the appendix, it recounts numerous self-defense stories.

The question above is a question anyone serious about the gun debate in America should answer before pronouncing a broad judgment against firearms themselves. The report can be found here:

Tough Targets

By the way, there is a school district in Texas that has permitted faculty to carry weapons for going on five years.
Couple of questions Epi. If Teachers are armed will you force them to be armed? If someone refuses to carry a gun will they be unable to be a teacher? When they get a little old and their arm gets shakey? Will it be the teacher who gets the blame if they don't react as expected when confronted by a lunatic?
Also, you make yourself very clear about banning guns but what about only banning certain types of guns of the type being discussed.? I can't see the day when the states bans guns anyway. And I understand your argument.


I would not want to see a teacher required to carry a weapon, no. I'm not even in favor of saying "All districts must have armed teachers." I think that should be up to the districts themselves.

But if we entrust adults with our children, we should theoretically be able to entrust them with anything, including a gun, don't you think? The attitude that a "gun free zone" is best and the idea of armed teachers is "extreme" or a terrible proposition on its face is unreasonable.

As for specific guns, I don't think banning things keeps us any safer. People who really want something will find a way to get it. People who want to kill will try to kill.
I don't think it follows that if we trust a teacher with the education and care of our children that we would trust them to carry a gun around them and act as security. I'm really not sure the type of person that makes a good teacher of five year olds would also be the same person that would be able to shoot someone dead while that person is aiming a gun at them and the class. Especially as I am sure that they would be worried that they kill the very people they are asked to protect. How can you change from playing games with children to being able to kill in a second. I could also envisage a teacher losing it in the classroom and shooting the children after a hard day!
With the majority of the recent mass killings the arms have been obtained legally. With the most recent he got them from his mother. I don't think that with these types of senseless killings that the perpetrator would go out of his way into the criminal world to obtain this type of gun. Of course this is not always the case but why would you want to keep them legal? Why make it easy fo someone with mental issues to do this?
Why would anyone want them? I can only think that they want them for gangland murder or with this idea that American society is so fragile that they need them to protect themselves when it (society) breaks down. They surely can't be kept under the pillow in case of a burglar?
Your link doesn't work.
 
Oh well Just realised new thread so I moved it!


Guns should remain legally available so people can protect themselves from violence.  I explained that in my first post in this quote pyramid.  The assumption tossed around is that violent crime will decrease when guns are banned, but data from DC, Chicago, the universities in Colorado, and elsewhere in America tends to show that that assumption is greatly flawed.

And if your motivation for banning guns isn't lowering violent crime and saving innocent lives, then what is it?

Here is a link to Tough Targets.

Edited by Epignosis - December 19 2012 at 15:53
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:04
How are guns ever going to get banned in a country like USA? I think never. The land was taken from its inhabitants by way of the gun, and it has a legal foundation found at its core - pedestalling arms as a way of protecting oneself and family from harm.

I don't think any of us Europeans have anything interesting to add to this debate, mostly because we, at least myself that is, feel somewhat sickened just by seeing policemen bearing arms. I do. 
Frankly speaking, it's like when we try to immerse ourselves in the "peace talks" of the Middle east with all of our well meaning ideas and whatnot - not realising that we don't know the first thing about the quarrel. We haven't had our children killed in bombings and lost two thirds of the family to madmen with a different viewpoint to our own. Gross generalisation yes, but let me be the first to say that while I think the gun laws in the States are ridiculous, I also have no idea of just how it feels having been brought up in a country, where the wild west once was and reigned.
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
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