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stonebeard View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 14:46
^^^ calling abu graib and guantanamo bay "atrocities" is a huge overstatement. they are horrible exhibitions that americans do not know how to handle the war on terror, and choose to desecrate the religion and stature of the islamist fundamentalists we are trying to gain "valuable information" from. if the u.s. continues to do stuff like that, i will be able to see why islamic fundamentalists will want to harm citizens and the u.s. economy. i still would not agree with them, but i would know why they were doing it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 14:33

I have now been accused of "America-bashing."  To me, that is a euphemism for the belief that "dissension is unpatriotic."

It is not "bashing."  It is being aware of the truth about my own country, and its history both national and international.  It is the knowledge that "people in glass houses" (the U.S.) should not throw stones.  It is the knowledge that "manifest destiny" was a genocide of a far greater order than anything Hitler ever dreamed of (Hitler: 6 million.  White America: 50+ million).  It is the knowledge that (as has been pointed out by others) the U.S. has still not eliminated its endemic racism against Blacks, despite 40 years passing since the civil rights movement.  It is the knowledge that U.S. imperialism still thrives, though now under the euphemism of "nation-building."  It is the knowledge that the U.S. - essentiall barely a "toddler" at less than 250 years old - has become the world's sole hyperpower, and expects to have its policies, whims and fancies adhered to by the global community without argument or dissent.  It is the knowledge that U.S. transnational corporations now own over 45% of the world's wealth, and control over 75% of the world's critical resources, from water to oil to food.  It is the knowledge that much of the "problem" in the "Third World" (a borderline racist term) was and is caused by the "West" and its control of global wealth and its unwillingness to truly do anything substantive to correct the problems.

Yes, the internal political situations in many of those countries may be "home-grown" and responsible for the remainder of the problem.  But even here, many of the current political situations - including dictatorships, benevolent dictatorships, quasi-socialist democracies, etc. - are the result of failed U.S. or other Western imperialism (which devolved into civil war, leading to the present situations), and some are the result of continued U.S. and other Western power policies of "propping up" all the wrong dictators (is there such a thing as a "correct" dictator?) and other government leaders.

I am not "bashing" America.  I am simply not going to turn a blind eye to all the atrocities - yes, atrocities - committed by the U.S. over the past 250 years, especially when the u.S. continues to perpetuate old atrocities and commit new ones (think Abu Gharib and Guantanamo, for starters).

As the sayting goes "dissent is patriotic."  Indeed, I remain fully aware that my freedom to dissent was fought for by brave men and women who died in the Revolutionary and Civil Wars (and, to a lesser extent, in the two world wars).  Indeed, it is because I cherish that freedom - and honor those men and women for their service - that I will not go quietly while this country moves closer and closer to proto-totalitarianism (via "police state" tactics) and theocracy.

It is because I am watching as our Constitution is being slowly shredded, as our freedoms of speech, press, assembly and free movement are being diminished and ever more controlled, and as our government uses fear in order to control the populace that I find it critical to speak out, and do so loudly and often.

If you consider that "America-bashing," so be it.  I call it being a true patriot.  Because I am fighting to defend our freedoms, while some of you are more than willing to sacrifice those freedoms for a "security" that is not only illusory, but as phony as a nine-dollar bill.

Peace.

Peace.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 14:08
Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

stonebeard:


So you're saying that it's perfectly fine that a completely innocent man was shot in the back?  Please tell me that you are not rationalizing that way...


MTS:


I guess you haven't heard that, by every single counting method done after the Supreme Court's decision in Gore v. Florida - by nine different newspapers (of different political stripes), and dozens of independent firms and agencies - it was clear that, had the recount been permitted to proceed, Gore would have won Florida without question.  That is fact.  So I repeat my correct claim that the Supreme Court "coronated" (or, perhaps more appropriate to current events, "anointed") Bush as president.


And there was chicanery in the 2004 elections as well.  In that case, it was Ohio that was stolen by Bush via a number of outrageous, illegal tactics.  (See Mark Crispin Miller's article in the current issue of Harper's.)


Bush campaigned as a "uniter, not a divider," yet became a divider almost immediately upon taking office, and has become without question the most divisive president since Nixon.  He campaigned as a "compassionate conservative," but has fulfilled only the second part of that phrase.  He campaigned as a "listener," but listens to no one except his neocon cronies.  He didn't even listen to over30 million people in over 30 cities in 12 countries who protested simultaneously just prior to the invasion of Iraq: the largest protest against a single person in the history of the world!  As an aside, so divisive had he become by then that the protests included over 20,000 Jews and Palestinians marching arm in arm in Jerusalem to protest the planned invasion.


And here at home Bush and his neocon cronies, supported by the so-called "Christian Right" (which, like the Moral Majority before it, is neither), are slowly but surely shredding the Constitution, evoking "executive powers" above and beyond anything Nixon ever even dreamed of, and sending this country on the path toward a proto-totalitarian quasi-theocracy.


Yes, the "terrorists" have already won.  Except the terrorists were never Arab: they were right here under our noses.


Peace.


Well here's one for you to checkout Maani: www.judicialwatch.org/archive/2001/881.shtml

And here's another one: www.pbs.org/newshour/media/ media_watch/jan-june01/recount_4-3.html

Stop writing fiction will ya?

Edited by marktheshark
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 12:22

Originally posted by James Lee James Lee wrote:

^ you mean that didn't occur to you the first time you saw the films? I thought Lucas & co. were pretty heavy-handed about the social commentary. It was almost too pointedly relevant.

Actually, Lucas has emphatically stated that the rise of Palpatine is in no way intended to be a social commentary on the political situation in the U.S.  One only needs to look at the timeline of the films to realize that this is true.  First, the entire story for the prequel trilogy was drafted in the mid 90's, long before the world ever heard of W.  The first movie, The Phantom Menace came out in 1999.  The second movie, Attack of the Clones, came out in 2002; however, scripting was done on AotC in early 2001.  These were the two movies where Palpatine did most of his scheming.  The third movie, which was scripted and filmed after W's first election (appointment), deals more with Anakin's fall and the fruition of Palpatine's scheming. 

So by a simple analysis of the timeline of the prequel trilogy, one can see that there was no way Lucas could have intended this as a social commentary on the Bush administration.  Of course, you are free to draw your own parallels if you wish.

I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 06:43
I'd like to hear a cop's perspective. What happened to Danbo?
Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 06:38

Personally, I wish Chris Columbus had done like the vikings and left the natives to it.

Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 06:00
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

 I'm becoming more and more conservative regarding international policy.  And I'm beginning to think maybe it is time we kicked the U.N. out of New York.  Tis a blight on my home, it is.  There is no reason the U.S. should continue to house what is starting to amount to an enemy of the U.S., at least not in my home city.

Whooooo! What's this?!

So this is what it all boils down to really,isnt it? Anyone who disagrees with the US is an enemy. Because some on the UN Council choose not to kow-tow to the Big Apple,the UN should be expelled from your country?

Remember we are talking "Big Issues" here in the good ole "United Nations".Do you really think that American foreign policy should be allowed to go unchecked? Let your country ride rough-shod over the World on the basis of protecting American interests,I dont think so!

As for United Nations, you havent even got 50 United States singing off the same hymn sheet.Florida run like some local Bush fiefdom,Southern States still deeply entrenched in racism and bigotry,and California dragged back into the Dark Ages by an ex-"actor" who is soft on sexism, and hard on male rights as long as they are heterosexual.

"The Doctor"-answer me this: do you care about the thousands of innocent Iraqis who were killed by "Coalition" Forces during the taking of Iraq?

Let's face it they have far more reason to be full of hatred than you have.Afterall they had no input whatsoever into their "choice" of dictator!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 02:43
^ you mean that didn't occur to you the first time you saw the films? I thought Lucas & co. were pretty heavy-handed about the social commentary. It was almost too pointedly relevant.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 01:47
Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

Please excuse my moment of Star Wars geekiness:

Luke could never have wielded that kind of power that early in his training even if he did turn to the dark side.In the books that continue the story from the end of Return of the Jedi he is able to wield power like that about 25 years later.He ripped the engines out of a Star Destroyer and closed a mini black hole by using the force.But he never could have done it back then.

Nice to see someone else reads the books following Jedi!

took my advice, eh Cygnus?

I believe I have read every star wars novel published.  Hell, I think I've even read all the comic books.  I must say though that I prefer the prequel era to the original era, both in terms of novels and movies.  

Yeah, I'm a nerd.  What's it to you? 

I haven't read to that extent, but I've read a plenty amount of the novels. My favorites are Dark Saber and the fan favorite Shadows of the Empire. What are yours? (Sorry to get off topic)

My favorites would have to be Cloak of Deception (it's more political, but really gives an insight into the genius of Palpatine in setting up his rise to power), Darth Maul (even though this one has a rather tragic ending - but so did RoTS and that was my favorite movie), and Jedi Trial (about Anakin becoming a Jedi).

I guess for the original trilogy timeline novels I would have to say I, Jedi (although it got some things wrong about how Anakin became Vader and the background of the Old Republic) and Shadows of the Empire. 

I'm really looking forward to Dark Lord - The Rise of Darth Vader coming out in October. 

It's not really all that off topic if you think about it.  Some are accusing Bush of being this great mastermind who has plotted to make himself emperor by starting a war.  Holy sh** batman, Bush is Darth Sidious. 



Edited by The Doctor
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 01:39
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

^ I think THE DOCTOR and I are on the same page.

I am definitely in the Democratic party camp, as oppose to my earlier statements.  The Republicans are way to Christian, way to tricky, and show way to much disregard for nature and ecology for that to be my party.  However on some Issues I am starting to agree with them. 

I'm sure THE Doctor agrees with me it is time we said F.U. to international approval, no matter what we do they just get pissed off, and booted the UN out of NY.  All they do is pass resolutions against the US and Israel, I really despise them.  After all, this is the organization with Sudan on the humanitarian council.   

I agree.  The republicans are far too christian for me (my god, this is the 21st century, the blue laws should be gone for christ's sake, and don't get me started on abortion rights - of which i am fully in favor, or prayer in school).  They have a self-righteousness about them that I truly despise.  And yes, they have much more regard for big business than they do for the ecology.  However, while fairly liberal on a lot of domestic issues (minus feminism, affirmative action, the welfare state, etc. - basically i think the government should stay out of the lives of individuals, but not necessarily corporations), I'm becoming more and more conservative regarding international policy.  And I'm beginning to think maybe it is time we kicked the U.N. out of New York.  Tis a blight on my home, it is.  There is no reason the U.S. should continue to house what is starting to amount to an enemy of the U.S., at least not in my home city.

I agree with (limited) Affirmative action based primarily on economics, not race.  I go to a very affluent school, and we are much more advantaged than poorer kids when it comes to college entrance.

But I think welfare is a mainly a failure.  I'm a New Dealer, but now we have these families in the slums that have been on welfare that have been on assistance for three generations etc, that is so wrong, however I do agree with unemployment, medicare, social security.

And I am really conservative on foreign policy.

I'm also a New Dealer.  My parents grew up in the time of FDR, and I still think that Roosevelt did a lot for this country.  I also believe that we as a society have an obligation to take care of those who are unable to care for themselves (therefore, I believe in SSI, disability and unemployment), but I do not believe that we have a responsibility to those who are unwilling to take care of themselves.  That's one of my problems with the two party system in this country, the democrats (at least as they are now) think we should take care of everybody, and the republicans don't think we should help anyone.

A limited affirmative action based on income may not be so bad (hell, we sort of have that now with the college financial aid system), but it should not be based on race.

agreed.  saying blacks need help getting into college is admitting they are inferior.  who does that help?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 01:37
Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

^ I think THE DOCTOR and I are on the same page.

I am definitely in the Democratic party camp, as oppose to my earlier statements.  The Republicans are way to Christian, way to tricky, and show way to much disregard for nature and ecology for that to be my party.  However on some Issues I am starting to agree with them. 

I'm sure THE Doctor agrees with me it is time we said F.U. to international approval, no matter what we do they just get pissed off, and booted the UN out of NY.  All they do is pass resolutions against the US and Israel, I really despise them.  After all, this is the organization with Sudan on the humanitarian council.   

I agree.  The republicans are far too christian for me (my god, this is the 21st century, the blue laws should be gone for christ's sake, and don't get me started on abortion rights - of which i am fully in favor, or prayer in school).  They have a self-righteousness about them that I truly despise.  And yes, they have much more regard for big business than they do for the ecology.  However, while fairly liberal on a lot of domestic issues (minus feminism, affirmative action, the welfare state, etc. - basically i think the government should stay out of the lives of individuals, but not necessarily corporations), I'm becoming more and more conservative regarding international policy.  And I'm beginning to think maybe it is time we kicked the U.N. out of New York.  Tis a blight on my home, it is.  There is no reason the U.S. should continue to house what is starting to amount to an enemy of the U.S., at least not in my home city.

I agree with (limited) Affirmative action based primarily on economics, not race.  I go to a very affluent school, and we are much more advantaged than poorer kids when it comes to college entrance.

But I think welfare is a mainly a failure.  I'm a New Dealer, but now we have these families in the slums that have been on welfare that have been on assistance for three generations etc, that is so wrong, however I do agree with unemployment, medicare, social security.

And I am really conservative on foreign policy.

I'm also a New Dealer.  My parents grew up in the time of FDR, and I still think that Roosevelt did a lot for this country.  I also believe that we as a society have an obligation to take care of those who are unable to care for themselves (therefore, I believe in SSI, disability and unemployment), but I do not believe that we have a responsibility to those who are unwilling to take care of themselves.  That's one of my problems with the two party system in this country, the democrats (at least as they are now) think we should take care of everybody, and the republicans don't think we should help anyone.

A limited affirmative action based on income may not be so bad (hell, we sort of have that now with the college financial aid system), but it should not be based on race.

I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 01:34
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

Please excuse my moment of Star Wars geekiness:

Luke could never have wielded that kind of power that early in his training even if he did turn to the dark side.In the books that continue the story from the end of Return of the Jedi he is able to wield power like that about 25 years later.He ripped the engines out of a Star Destroyer and closed a mini black hole by using the force.But he never could have done it back then.

Nice to see someone else reads the books following Jedi!

took my advice, eh Cygnus?

I believe I have read every star wars novel published.  Hell, I think I've even read all the comic books.  I must say though that I prefer the prequel era to the original era, both in terms of novels and movies.  

Yeah, I'm a nerd.  What's it to you? 

I haven't read to that extent, but I've read a plenty amount of the novels. My favorites are Dark Saber and the fan favorite Shadows of the Empire. What are yours? (Sorry to get off topic)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 01:33
we're getting a bit off-topic. we need maani and tony to herd us back into the pen.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 01:32
Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

Please excuse my moment of Star Wars geekiness:

Luke could never have wielded that kind of power that early in his training even if he did turn to the dark side.In the books that continue the story from the end of Return of the Jedi he is able to wield power like that about 25 years later.He ripped the engines out of a Star Destroyer and closed a mini black hole by using the force.But he never could have done it back then.

Nice to see someone else reads the books following Jedi!

took my advice, eh Cygnus?

It was a minor influence.

well, then

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 01:31
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

Please excuse my moment of Star Wars geekiness:

Luke could never have wielded that kind of power that early in his training even if he did turn to the dark side.In the books that continue the story from the end of Return of the Jedi he is able to wield power like that about 25 years later.He ripped the engines out of a Star Destroyer and closed a mini black hole by using the force.But he never could have done it back then.

Nice to see someone else reads the books following Jedi!

took my advice, eh Cygnus?

I believe I have read every star wars novel published.  Hell, I think I've even read all the comic books.  I must say though that I prefer the prequel era to the original era, both in terms of novels and movies.  

Yeah, I'm a nerd.  What's it to you? 

I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 01:27
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

^ I think THE DOCTOR and I are on the same page.

I am definitely in the Democratic party camp, as oppose to my earlier statements.  The Republicans are way to Christian, way to tricky, and show way to much disregard for nature and ecology for that to be my party.  However on some Issues I am starting to agree with them. 

I'm sure THE Doctor agrees with me it is time we said F.U. to international approval, no matter what we do they just get pissed off, and booted the UN out of NY.  All they do is pass resolutions against the US and Israel, I really despise them.  After all, this is the organization with Sudan on the humanitarian council.   

I agree.  The republicans are far too christian for me (my god, this is the 21st century, the blue laws should be gone for christ's sake, and don't get me started on abortion rights - of which i am fully in favor, or prayer in school).  They have a self-righteousness about them that I truly despise.  And yes, they have much more regard for big business than they do for the ecology.  However, while fairly liberal on a lot of domestic issues (minus feminism, affirmative action, the welfare state, etc. - basically i think the government should stay out of the lives of individuals, but not necessarily corporations), I'm becoming more and more conservative regarding international policy.  And I'm beginning to think maybe it is time we kicked the U.N. out of New York.  Tis a blight on my home, it is.  There is no reason the U.S. should continue to house what is starting to amount to an enemy of the U.S., at least not in my home city.

I agree with (limited) Affirmative action based primarily on economics, not race.  I go to a very affluent school, and we are much more advantaged than poorer kids when it comes to college entrance.

But I think welfare is a mainly a failure.  I'm a New Dealer, but now we have these families in the slums that have been on welfare that have been on assistance for three generations etc, that is so wrong, however I do agree with unemployment, medicare, social security.

And I am really conservative on foreign policy.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 01:27
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

Please excuse my moment of Star Wars geekiness:

Luke could never have wielded that kind of power that early in his training even if he did turn to the dark side.In the books that continue the story from the end of Return of the Jedi he is able to wield power like that about 25 years later.He ripped the engines out of a Star Destroyer and closed a mini black hole by using the force.But he never could have done it back then.

Nice to see someone else reads the books following Jedi!

took my advice, eh Cygnus?

It was a minor influence.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 01:27
Originally posted by Cygnus X-2 Cygnus X-2 wrote:

Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

Please excuse my moment of Star Wars geekiness:

Luke could never have wielded that kind of power that early in his training even if he did turn to the dark side.In the books that continue the story from the end of Return of the Jedi he is able to wield power like that about 25 years later.He ripped the engines out of a Star Destroyer and closed a mini black hole by using the force.But he never could have done it back then.

Nice to see someone else reads the books following Jedi!

took my advice, eh Cygnus?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 01:22

Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

^ I think THE DOCTOR and I are on the same page.

I am definitely in the Democratic party camp, as oppose to my earlier statements.  The Republicans are way to Christian, way to tricky, and show way to much disregard for nature and ecology for that to be my party.  However on some Issues I am starting to agree with them. 

I'm sure THE Doctor agrees with me it is time we said F.U. to international approval, no matter what we do they just get pissed off, and booted the UN out of NY.  All they do is pass resolutions against the US and Israel, I really despise them.  After all, this is the organization with Sudan on the humanitarian council.   

I agree.  The republicans are far too christian for me (my god, this is the 21st century, the blue laws should be gone for christ's sake, and don't get me started on abortion rights - of which i am fully in favor, or prayer in school).  They have a self-righteousness about them that I truly despise.  And yes, they have much more regard for big business than they do for the ecology.  However, while fairly liberal on a lot of domestic issues (minus feminism, affirmative action, the welfare state, etc. - basically i think the government should stay out of the lives of individuals, but not necessarily corporations), I'm becoming more and more conservative regarding international policy.  And I'm beginning to think maybe it is time we kicked the U.N. out of New York.  Tis a blight on my home, it is.  There is no reason the U.S. should continue to house what is starting to amount to an enemy of the U.S., at least not in my home city.

I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2005 at 01:17

this does seem to be a "moderate democrat/libertarian" sort of party 'eh.

I got me them 'ol Red State blues.

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