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arcer

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Joined: September 01 2004
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Posted: January 16 2005 at 16:29

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you all for a fascinating thread. It has made the last hours or so of work fly by and I'm hugely impressed by the erudition of the chief protagonists.

As one who went through every demeaning, personality-squashing, independent-thought killing variety of Catholic education in the most holy catholic of all catholic countries I can only offer this thought on Christianity, said to me by very wise and foolish dear departed father, who was a most religious medical man:

he said: "christianity is a fine religion but most of it is redundant. If everybody lived by its simplest tenet then the world would not need any other rules or religions. That rule is: Love thy neighbour."

That's it folks as far as I can see. Do that and if you do happen to believe, then you will get your reward in heaven, if you don't then you might just find it during your brief sojourn here.

As for my own belief I side with Reed, whose reasoned, well constructed, provocative arguments are aligned with most of my own. He said it better than I could have. My hat's off to you sir.

Maani: My hat is also off to you for your persistance and willingness to argue points which you may consider moot. The bible may admonish us to refrain from debate (a control issue if ever there was one) but I applaud your enlightened willingness to get stuck in

This has been the most interesting thread on the forum for some time, made all the more so by the wit and erudition, patience and understanding displayed.

Now if only it had been over several bottles of fine wine and a good meal while listening to some good music then it would be have a much more pleasant than sitting here reading it to avoid work.

Thanks all.

arcer

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Posted: January 16 2005 at 16:32

BTW as one who suffered the worst rigours of a catholic education under nuns, Jesuits, Christian brothers, Holy Ghost fathers and even Opus Dei, I think I can understand from where Reed's learning and antipathy stem.

You learn but by (the supposed) God you learn to hate it with a fiery passion

threefates View Drop Down

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Posted: January 16 2005 at 17:08

Reed Lover wrote:

What?

So if I get thrown off this site for not following its rules, I am in a better light than someone who has chosen not to join?

Your "beliefs" are part of what I hate about religion and what other non-believers have expressed in various threads.

You nail your colours to an idea that is totally ridiculous. A child's way of describing how "life" works, a simplistic embarrassment. You claim to believe in Christ, as God, yet want to cherrypick which bits of his "laws/rules/ideas" you wish to follow-with the totally fallacious assumption that Christ's teachings allow this-despite the word of God being his law.
Nowhere in any Biblical text is there a rider-"just try your best and you will be ok" this is made up by people like you as an alternative to actually practising their religion.

Your smugness is very Christian btw. If you do genuinely believe in Christ, as God, I suggest you turn to Maani for some guidance-before it is too late! Wink

See this is where your problems lie... you have been taught that there is some rule book (the bible) that tells you exactly how to be a christian.. and that anyone who doesn't believe in everyword that the bible says must not be christian. You also try so hard to disprove everyone else's reasons for believing in order to make you feel better about not believing as tho its some proof that you're doing the right thing...

There is no perfect way to be a christian... I can be one in any fashion I want to be one.. Its not up to you or Maani or anyone else to tell me how to be a good christian, or for that matter... translate the bible for me....

There is no perfect rule book... and we don't all have to be the same or believe the same.. or even follow the same rules... Thats not smugness... thats just acceptance in what we are and the ability to not let someone like you tell us otherwise....

And in reading your arguments... the only childlike discussion is coming from you in your need to prove something to yourself... If you don't believe.. or if you just don't want to... then goody for you... but that doesn't mean its not so... or that you won't find out something completely different at your death...

BTW... whether or not I follow the rules regarding sex...I believe God knows whats in my heart in regard to my treatment of others and my love for those I've been with.. and will judge me accordingly. Thats what I believe... you can believe what you want...!

My beliefs are not what you hate about religion... you don't even know what my beliefs are really... what you hate is anyone trying to stick up for themselves.. because it makes you feel smaller... oh well!!

THIS IS ELP

DallasBryan View Drop Down

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Posted: January 16 2005 at 21:31

Reed you asked me to get involved with your debate
in the past and I bowed out.

well.........

ditto threefates, less the exhaustion!!!

sigod

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Posted: January 17 2005 at 07:56

Poor Reed. How will you survive all this with your ego intact?

I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
- Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill

Reed Lover View Drop Down

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Posted: January 17 2005 at 15:07

threefates wrote:

Reed Lover wrote:

What?

So if I get thrown off this site for not following its rules, I am in a better light than someone who has chosen not to join?

Your "beliefs" are part of what I hate about religion and what other non-believers have expressed in various threads.

Your smugness is very Christian btw. If you do genuinely believe in Christ, as God, I suggest you turn to Maani for some guidance-before it is too late! Wink

No, I have not been taught that "anyone who doesn't believe in everyword that the bible says must not be christian" I have deduced this from Maani's claim that Scripture is "God-breathed" If Scripture does not need to be followed why would God have "breathed it". This isnt Rocket Science 3F8T's, just a logical progression from what has been written.

No you cannot be a Christian however you want to be.You believe that all there is to being a Christian is to say you believe Christ was God. I think you are one of these people who likes to be seen to be doing the right thing, whether it is religion, charity or whatever. What you believe or do not believe is secondary to how you are perceived.

It was a frivolous remark, but the Ten Commandments are pretty explicit. If you need a definition for "commandment", I will willingly provide you with one.

I dont like people sticking up for themselves? You will need to clarify that. I thought we were discussing Christianity! A good debate needs people to stick up for themselves, so it looks by the amount of pages this has run to, that people have been well up to it!

As for "making me feel smaller"..... I think it was up to you whether you entered this debate. You could see that I was one of the main contributors, so if you do not like me you should not have got int debate with me. Christianity is all about morality, so it was reasonable, given the direction the discussion had taken, to mention your morals. If this upset you, I am sorry, but I wouldnt have known any of this if you hadnt taken delight in venturing this information on numerous occasions. If you feel the need to belittle me because I have voiced this-oh well!!

threefates View Drop Down

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Posted: January 17 2005 at 16:24

Reed Lover wrote:

So then evidently listening to one's man opinion is what you've based your debate on

I've been taught that the basis of being a christian is to believe that "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everylasting life"... and that i do believe. There is no where in the Bible that Christ says that to be sexual is to be immoral. The bible was written by men, and by their moral standards. I'll stand up for myself when the time comes... also perception is an earthly notion... and not necessary for an eternal life.

Threefates, I do not believe in God, or Jesus as God, so why would I want to tell you how to be a good Christian? I do not like Kentucky Fried Chicken, but I can read the instructions on how to make it for myself (if they were to allow me). Because Reed, you take the words that you don't believe in order to convince me that what I believe is wrong... unlike the instructions for KFC which may be different per state or country... I follow what I feel is right in my heart.. and I can actually construct a computer table without instructions.. so I'm well ahead of the game...

Explain to me just exactly where I make childlike discussion? What do you believe I am trying to prove to myself? This has mainly been an intellectual excersise for me, a chance to debate something I know far more about than most people. Your childlike discussion was saying something like its beliefs like mine that cause you to hate religion...I think that is a childish thing to say...Your intellectual exercise seems more like a "man who protests to much" to me...

It was a frivolous remark, but the Ten Commandments are pretty explicit. If you need a definition for "commandment", I will willingly provide you with one.

The ten commandments say 10 things I should not do.. and most of those I don't. The ones that I would do... I'll take the responsibility for when the time comes.. but thats not me "not" believing or having faith in them... or not being a christian... thats just me following my own heart regardless of the consequences. In every situation on earth there is a gray area.. christianity is not black and white... no faith is!

As for "making me feel smaller".....I wasn't trying to make you feel small.. I was reading into what you were saying and thats what I was seeing... thats just the perception as you say...

I think it was up to you whether you entered this debate. You could see that I was one of the main contributors, so if you do not like me you should not have got int debate with me. Your assumption again.. because actually as I've said before.. I'm quite fond of you. Even after all you do to hurt me at times...

Christianity is all about morality, so it was reasonable, given the direction the discussion had taken, to mention your morals. But who's to say what morals are. You're throwing back at me some man's views on morality. And really you don't know me well enough to judge my morality.

If this upset you, I am sorry, but I wouldnt have known any of this if you hadnt taken delight in venturing this information on numerous occasions. If you feel the need to belittle me because I have voiced this-oh well!! I wasn't upset evidently.. believe me you can tell when I'm upset.. I just think you spend way to much time trying to convince others how to think when you evidently don't have a clue yourself... and if you think thats belittling you then... oh well...

THIS IS ELP

arcer

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Posted: January 17 2005 at 16:35

give it up dude, it's futile

Reed Lover View Drop Down

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Posted: January 17 2005 at 17:32

arcer wrote:

give it up dude, it's futile

But who's to say what morals are. You're throwing back at me some man's views on morality

This "man" being God. LOL

That's the most stupid thing I've seen written in this whole discussion!

Idiot wind, blowing like a circle around my skull,
From the Grand Coulee Dam to the Capitol.
Idiot wind, blowing every time you move your teeth,
You're an idiot, babe.
It's a wonder that you still know how to breathe.

Robert Zimmerman. Confused

Edited by Reed Lover

James Lee

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Posted: January 17 2005 at 21:51

The only remotely sexual thing that I remember reading from Jesus said that whores were near the front of the line for heaven. Which is fine with me, but it seems to have been ignored in the puritanical focus of the following millenia.

threefates View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2005 at 01:35

Reed Lover wrote:

arcer wrote:

give it up dude, it's futile

But who's to say what morals are. You're throwing back at me some man's views on morality

This "man" being God. LOL

That's the most stupid thing I've seen written in this whole discussion!

Thats because as usual.. you don't get it... Your head must be thicker than turd... God didn't write the Bible....

When God has a conversation with you about his idea of morals.... you can tell me about it....

Edited by threefates

THIS IS ELP

James Lee

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Posted: January 18 2005 at 05:40

Maybe God telling man what's correct sexually is like one of us trying to get a dog to stop licking himself. What's good for man isn't good for God, as Harvey Keitel said. Anyway, we're just going to do it when the master isn't looking anyway.

sigod

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Posted: January 18 2005 at 06:05

James Lee wrote:

Maybe God telling man what's correct sexually is like one of us trying to get a dog to stop licking himself. What's good for man isn't good for God, as Harvey Keitel said. Anyway, we're just going to do it when the master isn't looking anyway.

James is it REALLY five in the morning where you are?

I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
- Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill

Reed Lover View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2005 at 08:08

threefates wrote:

Reed Lover wrote:

arcer wrote:

give it up dude, it's futile

But who's to say what morals are. You're throwing back at me some man's views on morality

This "man" being God. LOL

That's the most stupid thing I've seen written in this whole discussion!

Thats because as usual.. you don't get it... Your head must be thicker than turd... God didn't write the Bible....

When God has a conversation with you about his idea of morals.... you can tell me about it....

Calling me thick when I have a 1st Class Honours Degree is futile.Having a 1st Class Honours Degree does not make me an expert on the Bible,but it kinda confirms I'm not stupid either.
Over disclosure of personal matters that might lead many forum members to form a "negative" opinion of you, is ...a euphemism is needed..... "unfortunate" to say the least!
All you have achieved in this "debate" is prove that your mental faculties are not what you think they are. The bulk of this discussion has been about whether the Scriptures are divinely inspired or man made. If you had actually read any of this, instead of making fatuous remarks, we would not be having this argument now. You really are silly at times,not realising when you are "out of your depth", and you are obviously used to being humoured, but happily unaware of it. You are an expert on ELP, and your knowledge of other bands is outstanding. Your experience of Progressive Rock music in general is far superior to mine and I respect you for that. You could be Progressive Rock music's 1st Agony Aunt-you are far more suited to this than you are to serious debate.

Big smile

threefates View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2005 at 08:41

Reed Lover wrote:

Calling me thick when I have a 1st Class Honours Degree is futile.Having a 1st Class Honours Degree does not make me an expert on the Bible,but it kinda confirms I'm not stupid either.

Not true.. it just confirms that you probably test well from a local school, doesn't prove that you actually retained anything you've learned! Evidently!

Over disclosure of personal matters that might lead many forum members to form a "negative" opinion of you, is ...a euphemism is needed..... "unfortunate" to say the least!

If people have a negative reaction to sex... then I'm not in the least bit interested in their opinions. Especially if they're not basing their negative opinion off a religious argument which they claim to not believe in. Now if I said I stole from someone or hurt someone.. then I'd expect some negativity.

All you have achieved in this "debate" is prove that your mental faculties are not what you think they are.

Unlike you, I'm not here to get anyone else's approval... so your opinion of my mental faculties is useless, and pretty much just proves that you can't handle being put down by a woman. Lashing out with the most riduculous arguments I've ever seen... You've proved my point about yourself more than I ever could....

The bulk of this discussion has been about whether the Scriptures are divinely inspired or man made. If you had actually read any of this, instead of making fatuous remarks, we would not be having this argument now.

Not true, because you argue from a point of non-belief anyway, which tends to skew any opinion you've put forth. You also argue from a point of bashing, not discussion, so yes I read it all... and I responded... Deal with it!

You really are silly at times,not realising when you are "out of your depth", and you are obviously used to being humoured, but happily unaware of it.

Thats funny coming from the turd man. You reaction to most comments is to lash out or make a cheesy joke because you really don't know how to respond. I doubt I'm ever "out of my depth"... I'm a pretty deep person!

You are an expert on ELP, and your knowledge of other bands is outstanding. Your experience of Progressive Rock music in general is far superior to mine and I respect you for that. You could be Progressive Rock music's 1st Agony Aunt-you are far more suited to this than you are to serious debate.

Big smile

Oh, I think I've probably just as much experience in the world of religion as you do... and I think I've handled your comical "serious" debate pretty well on my own... but thanks, Daddy!

THIS IS ELP

Beau Heem

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Posted: January 18 2005 at 09:40

threefates wrote:

you take the words that you don't believe in order to convince me that what I believe is wrong... unlike the instructions for KFC which may be different per state or country

I suppose that the KFC instructions are more likely to be the same all over than the translations of "the good book".

Equivalency in the translations of the bible, is simply non-existant - they are adequate, but nothing more. I do have to stress, however, that adequacy is what is expected from a translation. Most of the translations of the bible are actually translations of translations, which makes the adequacy part a bit so-so. Not to forget that the text almost every version of the bible has been revised on multiple occasions, sometimes to better the translation, sometimes to make the text more understandable for contemporary (contemporary with the revision, not to mean "our times") readers. Even though the book you are referring to, the King James' Version of the Bible, is, indeed, a remarkable milestone of translation, it still is, as the title says, a version.

some history of the bible (in Britain and English-speaking America)

Whereas translating the bible has undoubtedly given the biggest boost ever to the development of translation science or translation per se, this advancement or development hasn't necessarily made the translations of the bible itself any better. This is due to the fact that the written form of most indo-european languages has been developed (or even born) hand in hand with the translation of the bible.

Martin Luthers translation of the New Testament (1522), the complete Bible (1534) did play a major roll in the "standardisation" of the german language. Luther also contributed the first crtical analysis of translations through his works Sendbrief von Dolmetschen and Summarien über die Psalmen und Ursachen des Dolmetschens.

The early Latin Bible, Vulgata, was written by Hieronymous (331-ca.420), but before that the old testament had been translated into Greek (300-130 before Christ). This Greek version is called Septuaginta, in case anyone is interested.

Fédération Internationale des Tradecteurs (FIT) has chosen the 30th of September for the international day of translation, St. Hieronymous's Day.

Well. I suppose (once again) that I've forgotten why I so eagerly started writing (and backchecking the information)...

Never mind. I hope someone more interested in the debate finds something of use from my "points"

-Beau "Brain Fart" Heem

--No enemy but time--

Tarkustra

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Posted: January 18 2005 at 09:58

Reed Lover wrote:

Over disclosure of personal matters that might lead many forum members to form a "negative" opinion of you, is ...a euphemism is needed..... "unfortunate" to say the least!

I don't know much about you other than you seem to have a bad attitude, but I do know her and I can tell you, her shared personal matters have never given me a "negative" opinion. On the contrary, it makes me wish I lived through the 70s with her, or that she'd live through the 2000's with me!

When you speak, is it you that hears? Are your ears full? You can't hear anything at all.

emdiar

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Posted: January 18 2005 at 10:23

You poor deluded people. Only Reed seems to have successfully freed his mind from the human disease that is religion.

"There's no ghosts! There's no God! There's a perfectly rational explanation for any phenomenon you might encounter!" , peoples poet.

Edited by emdiar

Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.

threefates View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2005 at 10:54

emdiar wrote:

You poor deluded people. Only Reed seems to have successfully freed his mind from the human disease that is religion.

"There's no ghosts! There's no God! There's a perfectly rational explanation for any phenomenon you might encounter!" , peoples poet.

I don't see that at all Emidar... I think religion is very much on his mind!

THIS IS ELP

Syzygy

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Posted: January 18 2005 at 11:21

emdiar wrote:

You poor deluded people. Only Reed seems to have successfully freed his mind from the human disease that is religion.

"There's no ghosts! There's no God! There's a perfectly rational explanation for any phenomenon you might encounter!" , peoples poet.

Shut up Rik or I'll kill you!!!!!

'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom