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The Foremost Breakthroughs of Progressive Rock?
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richardh View Drop Down
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    Posted: 1 hour 20 minutes ago at 23:22
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Tangerine Dream - Phaedra


I'd take it back to Zeit, or maybe even the debut, Electronic Meditation. Tangerine Dream kicked open so many doors, it makes one dizzy.

I'm sure you are right but I am very vague on anything TD pre Phaedra to say the least. What I know is that Phaedra was their first big UK release (on Richard Branson's newly formed Virgin Music label) and did very well propelling them into the big league. Artistically though they were already well on the way before Branson's involvement. That is perhaps more relevant to the other thread that is going though!
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Originally posted by meAsoi meAsoi wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I'm not sure about the dates in the OP as both the Procol Harum album and The Nice album were released in the same week and are generally cited tied 'first' as the earliest examples of albums having side long epics.
Procol Harum's Shine On Brightly was first released in the US in September 1968; it was released in the UK only in December 1968. Although it didn't chart in their native nation, the record was a commercial success in the US and outperformed their debut album. The album peaked at number 26 in Canada.
The Nice's Ars Longa Vita Brevis came out in November 1968, according to Wikipedia.

wiki is not always correct..

However from digging I can't find an exact release date for Ars Longa Vita Brevis other than November.

Those release dates for Shine On Brightly are very odd. Whiter Shade Of Pale was a big hit in the UK a year earlier so holding back the second album must have been some strange contractural issue I guess. The Nice apparently recorded Ars longa Vita Brevis in October 1968 so it's not inconceivable they had heard the Procol album before going in the studio. Interesting.
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Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

I’m of the opinion that Genesis didn’t make its big mark until Lamb hit the shelves. Sure they had a following, but Lamb pushed them to huge acclaim in the U.S. it was a monster here. I could be wrong.
In the UK, Trespass received critical acclaim, which was significant for the genre during its early stages. A review in Melody Maker described the album as "tasteful, subtle, and refined" and awarded it Album of the Month, despite it being released in the same month as esteemed albums such as Pink Floyd's Atom Heart Mother, Led Zeppelin III, and Elton John's Tumbleweed Connection.
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Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Originally posted by meAsoi meAsoi wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Not from the dinosaur prog days but in 1982, Allan Holdsworth releasing i.o.u. was a game changer.
For the jazz-rock genre, in my opinion, the game-changer could have been only Larry Coryell's Barefoot Boy, released in 1971, not an album released in the early 80s.

Great choice: great album! But Spaces came out in late 1970 even though the material was recorded in March of 1969! A trio core of Larry, Billy Cobham, and Miroslav Vitous with a song each collaborated with Joe Zawinul and John McLaughlin!!! Talk about breakthrough stuff! 

Even though I like Spaces and I believe it's a criminally underrated progressive jazz masterpiece, I think that Barefoot Boy is the first truly jazz-rock album of Coryell and a real breakthrough for guitar-orientated jazz-rock.
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Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

Originally posted by meAsoi meAsoi wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I guess I'm going to have to disagree about Trespass being their big prog breakthrough.I'd say Foxtrot at the earliest especially if we are talking the US.
Genesis defines their trademark pastoral sound on Trespass. It blended English folk and progressive rock elements, featuring a heavier-sounding nine-minute track, The Knife. It was released in Italy, under the Charisma license, on the major European label Phillips, which also operated in what was then West Germany, distributing records throughout Western Europe. Consequently, Trespass reached No. 1 in Belgium in 1971. Genesis toured Italy and Belgium in early 1971 alongside fellow Charisma labelmates Van der Graaf Generator (and Lindisfarne). Both bands gained popularity in those nations. This marked a significant breakthrough for the genre.

In the US, meanwhile, in the early 1970s, the Genesis and Van der Graaf Generator approach to progressive rock was regarded as “snob rock” by most; back then, for instance, Jethro Tull was perceived as “hard rock” in the US, which is why they found early success there. Although the aforementioned Italy and Belgium are relatively small markets compared to the US market, those countries have been far more engaged with progressive rock than other markets, which has been beneficial for the genre. Steve Hackett believed that the sensibilities of Catholic countries generally aligned well with Genesis. I think the classical heritage in Europe really captures it.

It didnt help matters that in the States, Dunhill (part of the ABC group) label released trespass initially on its 'Impulse!' imprint which was a predominantly Jazz label. It did re-issue it on Dunhill/ ABC along with VDGG but i don't think there was any promotion so very little interest. Most of the US presses of Trespass that made their way back to UK collectors tend to be either 'Impulse!' or white label radio promo Dunhill which tell you very little actual standard stock was pressed or made it on to the markets. With Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot, although Charisma was licensed and pressed by Buddha records, it was so difficult to obtain (initially) that most copies were UK imported into the States. I think there were about 3 separate US re-issues before 'Best of Genesis' double lp which featured both. None of this was going to help them get anything but minimum interest but they certainly were not the only band to suffer from this. 
Genesis indeed experienced their breakthrough in the US on a scale that was notably significant even for such a large market, solely with A Trick of the Tail, the album and tour, as @Hosydi pointed out in another thread.

However, it may also be worth mentioning that Genesis' sound changed with ATotT, transitioning into what would eventually be referred to as neo-prog in contrast to their earlier English folk-tinged symphonic prog albums.
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Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

I’m of the opinion that Genesis didn’t make its big mark until Lamb hit the shelves. Sure they had a following, but Lamb pushed them to huge acclaim in the U.S. it was a monster here. I could be wrong.

I'm not sure if I would say "huge" acclaim but they were starting to play bigger venues by then. Not really a monster either unless you are talking about quality. The album didn't go gold until 1990.
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I’m of the opinion that Genesis didn’t make its big mark until Lamb hit the shelves. Sure they had a following, but Lamb pushed them to huge acclaim in the U.S. it was a monster here. I could be wrong.
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I’d sure like to find a copy of trespass on Dunhill Impulse. Just as a collectors piece. Probably quite rare!
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Originally posted by meAsoi meAsoi wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I guess I'm going to have to disagree about Trespass being their big prog breakthrough.I'd say Foxtrot at the earliest especially if we are talking the US.
Genesis defines their trademark pastoral sound on Trespass. It blended English folk and progressive rock elements, featuring a heavier-sounding nine-minute track, The Knife. It was released in Italy, under the Charisma license, on the major European label Phillips, which also operated in what was then West Germany, distributing records throughout Western Europe. Consequently, Trespass reached No. 1 in Belgium in 1971. Genesis toured Italy and Belgium in early 1971 alongside fellow Charisma labelmates Van der Graaf Generator (and Lindisfarne). Both bands gained popularity in those nations. This marked a significant breakthrough for the genre.

In the US, meanwhile, in the early 1970s, the Genesis and Van der Graaf Generator approach to progressive rock was regarded as “snob rock” by most; back then, for instance, Jethro Tull was perceived as “hard rock” in the US, which is why they found early success there. Although the aforementioned Italy and Belgium are relatively small markets compared to the US market, those countries have been far more engaged with progressive rock than other markets, which has been beneficial for the genre. Steve Hackett believed that the sensibilities of Catholic countries generally aligned well with Genesis. I think the classical heritage in Europe really captures it.

It didnt help matters that in the States, Dunhill (part of the ABC group) label released trespass initially on its 'Impulse!' imprint which was a predominantly Jazz label. It did re-issue it on Dunhill/ ABC along with VDGG but i don't think there was any promotion so very little interest. Most of the US presses of Trespass that made their way back to UK collectors tend to be either 'Impulse!' or white label radio promo Dunhill which tell you very little actual standard stock was pressed or made it on to the markets. With Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot, although Charisma was licensed and pressed by Buddha records, it was so difficult to obtain (initially) that most copies were UK imported into the States. I think there were about 3 separate US re-issues before 'Best of Genesis' double lp which featured both. None of this was going to help them get anything but minimum interest but they certainly were not the only band to suffer from this. 

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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I guess I'm going to have to disagree about Trespass being their big prog breakthrough.I'd say Foxtrot at the earliest especially if we are talking the US.
Genesis defines their trademark pastoral sound on Trespass. It blended English folk and progressive rock elements, featuring a heavier-sounding nine-minute track, The Knife. It was released in Italy, under the Charisma license, on the major European label Phillips, which also operated in what was then West Germany, distributing records throughout Western Europe. Consequently, Trespass reached No. 1 in Belgium in 1971. Genesis toured Italy and Belgium in early 1971 alongside fellow Charisma labelmates Van der Graaf Generator (and Lindisfarne). Both bands gained popularity in those nations. This marked a significant breakthrough for the genre.

In the US, meanwhile, in the early 1970s, the Genesis and Van der Graaf Generator approach to progressive rock was regarded as “snob rock” by most; back then, for instance, Jethro Tull was perceived as “hard rock” in the US, which is why they found early success there. Although the aforementioned Italy and Belgium are relatively small markets compared to the US market, those countries have been far more engaged with progressive rock than other markets, which has been beneficial for the genre. Steve Hackett believed that the sensibilities of Catholic countries generally aligned well with Genesis. I think the classical heritage in Europe really captures it.
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I guess I'm going to have to disagree about Trespass being their big prog breakthrough.I'd say Foxtrot at the earliest especially if we are talking the US.
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That's what I was trying to do Mr. S. 
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King Crimson - ItCotCK
Renaissance - the debut
ELP - the debut
Genesis - Trespass
VdGG - H to He
Magma - the debut
Soft Machine - Third
Yes - The Album
Gentle Giant - Acquiring the Taste
Jethro Tull - TaaB
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Originally posted by meAsoi meAsoi wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Not from the dinosaur prog days but in 1982, Allan Holdsworth releasing i.o.u. was a game changer.
For the jazz-rock genre, in my opinion, the game-changer could have been only Larry Coryell's Barefoot Boy, released in 1971, not an album released in the early 80s.

Great choice: great album! But Spaces came out in late 1970 even though the material was recorded in March of 1969! A trio core of Larry, Billy Cobham, and Miroslav Vitous with a song each collaborated with Joe Zawinul and John McLaughlin!!! Talk about breakthrough stuff! 



Edited by BrufordFreak - 11 hours 28 minutes ago at 13:14
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Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

Good call on Procol Harum and Renaissance... I might add Fairport Conventions Debut album,  and 
Steeleye spans "Parcel of Rogues" which had their hit 'Come ye all frae France.' (1973)


If Fairport Convention's 1968 debut gets on the list, we mustn't exclude Jethro Tull's This Was. Same year.
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Tangerine Dream - Phaedra


I'd take it back to Zeit, or maybe even the debut, Electronic Meditation. Tangerine Dream kicked open so many doors, it makes one dizzy.
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Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by meAsoi meAsoi wrote:

Let's contemplate breakthroughs for the progressive rock genre; rather than just the mainstream success an album got for a single band in terms of sales, consider diving into the rich tapestry of musical innovation and contribution to counterculture in the late 60s and early 70s.


Svettie, I'm not sure you know how to use the word "breakthrough" in the usual sense of the word in music.

While your list makes sense (except for the one below), most of these albums are/were not massive commercial breakthrough (that's what was meant in the other thread). Whether Tresspass, NC, SEBTP or Lamb, Genesis' real breakthrough is really either ATTWT or Duke.

What ou may mean with your current list is probably groundbreaking, and if the case, I will agree with your current list.


Originally posted by meAsoi meAsoi wrote:

The Nice Ars Longa Vita Brevis (November 1968)



.
You seem to forget The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack
Svettie? I thought we were talking about music, not Svetonio's fan club, to which you obviously belong since he is apparating for you everywhere! Well, as far as I know, in a musical context, a breakthrough refers to a significant advancement or development that changes the course of an artist's career as well as a new genre's evolution. Personally, I see 'breakthrough' as ​​something that resonates widely at a specific time. Prog was something new in 1968. Although it failed to chart, the aforementioned Ars Longa Vita Brevis received very positive reviews, and people were talking about the album. Symphonic prog made a breakthrough with that album. Melody Maker wrote, "A vast improvement on their first album, which shows them moving in a direction far removed from any other group, British or American." Additionally, the cover won that year's NME award for Best Pop Album Sleeve.
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Originally posted by meAsoi meAsoi wrote:

Let's contemplate breakthroughs for the progressive rock genre; rather than just the mainstream success an album got for a single band in terms of sales, consider diving into the rich tapestry of musical innovation and contribution to counterculture in the late 60s and early 70s.


Svettie, I'm not sure you know how to use the word "breakthrough" in the usual sense of the word in music.

While your list makes sense (except for the one below), most of these albums are/were not massive commercial breakthrough (that's what was meant in the other thread). Whether Tresspass, NC, SEBTP or Lamb, Genesis' real breakthrough is really either ATTWT or Duke.

What ou may mean with your current list is probably groundbreaking, and if the case, I will agree with your current list.


Originally posted by meAsoi meAsoi wrote:

The Nice Ars Longa Vita Brevis (November 1968)





.
You seem to forget The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Not from the dinosaur prog days but in 1982, Allan Holdsworth releasing i.o.u. was a game changer.
For the jazz-rock genre, in my opinion, the game-changer could have been only Larry Coryell's Barefoot Boy, released in 1971, not an album released in the early 80s.
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