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What ever happened to E.L.P.?
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Hosydi View Drop Down
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    Posted: 3 hours 49 minutes ago at 23:24
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Hosydi Hosydi wrote:

Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Forgive me if this question has been asked before, but how come Emerson, Lake and Palmer barely even make the Prog Archives Top 100 these days? (Their debut album is at No. 93, and as far as I can tell, that's it.) Oh, I must admit I never thought they were as convincing as Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull or other 1970s contemporaries... But to see them surpassed by the likes of Camel, Renaissance and Focus... For someone who grew up in the 1970s that feels very strange. Have classics such as TRILOGY and BRAIN SALADE SURGERY fallen out of favour? I'd like to hear your ideas.
The tunes from bands like Camel and Renaissance are super melodic. Today's listeners will find that such bands have a more cohesive sound across their albums; that vibe is totally what most prog-rock fans today are all about. Emerson, Lake & Palmer were the original prog rock supergroup that everyone looked up to back in the day, mainly because of their insane technical skills. To be candid, though, the technical brilliance of Emerson, Lake & Palmer from the early seventies has been thoroughly outshined by contemporary talents.


What contemporary talents in particular do you have in mind?
In every era, there's a solid mix of folks talented enough to play instruments extremely well and virtuosic. There are equal numbers of talented people in all eras. It depends on the industry if they are going to be exposed to and in which way. Now the internet platforms allow more people to self-release what they create. I don't want to bid on names, but solely in terms of technique of playing instruments, and virtuosity as such, today artists went far beyond what was called technical rock in the early and mid-70s and was rightly perceived as mind-blowing stuff back in the 70s. So yeah, even some bedroom magicians come to mind.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

I enjoy a wide variety of music, but when it comes to quality progressive rock played in a personal and unique style, it's always King Crimson or ELP for me.
Fripp and Emerson were the only rock musicians who developed a harmonic language that was unique to them.
Fripp was into his whole tone and symmetrical scale compositions and Emerson was into his mid 20th century quartal harmonies, those two have always been ahead of the pack.

As far as ELP albums go, I really like "Pictures", "Works Vol II" and parts of the other albums, "Tank", "Knife Edge", "Three Fates", "Toccata", "Bitches Crystal" and more.
Keith Emerson and Robert Fripp most certainly weren't the only ones who had harmonic language unique to them. For instance—mention a few regarding early progressive rock alone—Billy Ritchie's harmonic language was unique due to his creative use of dissonance and atypical chord progressions, which not only defined his own style but also laid the groundwork for Keith Emerson's more elaborate yet extremely theatrical keyboard work. Jon Lord's harmonic vocabulary was his own as he successfully merged advanced classical practices with rock aesthetics to create complex musical textures that were far beyond the classic 60s rock genre boundaries. His bandmate, Ritchie Blackmore's harmonic vocabulary on the late 60s/early 70s progressive Deep Purple albums was exceptionally distinctive due to his experimental nature with dissonance and unusual intervallic decisions, contrasting traditional Western harmony but blending rock and classical subject matter. While being a different guitarist than Blackmore, Anthony Phillips also had a harmonic language that was unique to him due to the way he integrated English folk elements with progressive rock, employing intricate 12-string guitar arrangements and orchestral textures that set his music apart from his contemporaries; also, his use of modal scale allowed for a more fluid tonality, which together created an otherworldly and atmospheric sound that became the hallmark of Genesis.

Edited by Hosydi - 3 hours 47 minutes ago at 23:26
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I enjoy a wide variety of music, but when it comes to quality progressive rock played in a personal and unique style, it's always King Crimson or ELP for me.
Fripp and Emerson were the only rock musicians who developed a harmonic language that was unique to them.
Fripp was into his whole tone and symmetrical scale compositions and Emerson was into his mid 20th century quartal harmonies, those two have always been ahead of the pack.

As far as ELP albums go, I really like "Pictures", "Works Vol II" and parts of the other albums, "Tank", "Knife Edge", "Three Fates", "Toccata", "Bitches Crystal" and more.
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Said it many times before but PA listings tend to value consistency more than inspiration when it comes to album ratings. There is plenty wrong with the PA top 100 as far as I'm concerned, not just the lack of ELP. No Rick Wakeman albums at all (at least 2 should be in there) and he was a contemporary of ELP maybe even doing it better than them on Six Wives up to and inc White Rock. Scottish band Beggars Opera were also a tremendous band with all the chops of ELP. Their debut Act One was incredible. I think many reviewers actually don't appreciate this pure classical approach as Pedro suggests. The filler thing is a red herring imo. Just an excuse to mark them down for no good reason. For some reason Genesis can get away with Battle Of Epping Forest yet the knives are out when ELP do the 2 minute throwaway ditty BTB. My final thought is that ELP did untold damage to their legacy with the awful Love Beach. That was a horror story and their collective reputations took a massive hit and somehow never recovered from it. That gave all the ammunition needed to the punks yet in spirit they were as rebellious as any punk band which is the strangely ironic thing about the whole affair!


Rick Wakeman is indeed sadly overlooked. One of my very favorite artists... indeed more so than ELP. He's got more music, both individual songs or whole albums, that I love than most other artists, including ELP, and even Yes themselves (whom are also among my very favorite artists).
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For me, they have great songs indeed, and as such deserve to be among the very best. But the uneven nature of their albums won't let love them as much as a whole. There's always something I would rather skip.
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 I dont think anything 'happened' to them , indeed they are well liked by most prog rock fans as far as I know and many consider them one of 'the big 6' of prog.
I think their first 4 studio lps are excellent as well as  the live Pictures lp.
As far as their debut being only 94 on the list as many have said ideas and opinions change over time about bands and their lps. 
Their debut lp is one of my all time favorite prog lps in my collection.
Smile



Edited by dr wu23 - 13 hours 29 minutes ago at 13:44
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Like much trad folk, it is sad, disturbing and tragic.

And you can't beat them pooks of hay.




Yes … a bit naughty that one
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
Palmer keeps the flame alive with his ELP legacy band but the lack of audience numbers is often telling.

Hi,

I kinda find this sad in many ways, as if he were not important on so much of the work ELP did in their albums ... but the drumming style of accentuating the lyrics and the musical moments, is not the preferred style these days ... these days, it's all about the counting and the metronomic drummer that accentuates nothing, and is not even listening to the music, when all he is doing is counting and telling the band when to do something different, when this drummer will added something fancy on the transition ... wow ... high school drumming at its best!

I turn off a lot of the numbered bands at this point ... when it is obvious that the musicianship is working on the timing and the clock and not the music ... very commercial, and what is weird is that we are a progressive bunch, but we seem to not remember that many times and endup saying that an average band with average drums and design or format ... is better than the more expressive and valuable work that stretches the musical learning of the players ... hard to think that on many of the bands listed on top ten anything here.

It's hard listening sometimes, when most are so while noised into believing that the worst drumming and time keeping is better than Carl Palmer ... it's very sad all around, and then some folks think that MP is better because he had not one setup, but two, for doing a whole lot of "not much" on the recent album. I can only think of it as ... I got the money and the love, so show off every bit of it! I do not find his work in this latest album worth a whole lot of attention, specially as someone of his caliber is only repeating everything he has done before ... that's not listening to the music itself, that's making sure the music fits his defined numbers, and that would mean he is not exactly listening to the guitar or bass, he's counting!

It's no wonder some folks hate the best and most innovative works in the 2th century ... you can't do any counting on Stravinsky. But that conglomeration of folks managed to fit it into a 4/4 ... and it was ridiculous, as it became just a one instrument thing playing the melody, which is not what you listen to Stravinsky for. And there are many pieces in rock music that have the same issue ... it's not easy for any of us to sit here and time all of TFTO ... it changes too much and you have to adjust ... but sadly, how many bands listed you will hear, the music change to something else ... and the drummer is doing the same thing, just faster or slower ... wow ... you cal lthat drumming? IN high school it's OK, but not in the pros!
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Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

A lot of people also forget that ELP were primarily a live band.  The Works tour also featured some fantastic renditions of their lesser known efforts - such as Carl Palmer's 'The Enemy God' (trio version, without orchestra) or 'Bolero'.  I am sure they would have transformed some of the 'Love Beach' material had they performed it live.  

Love Beach needed an orchestra possibly but Emerson and Lake clearly hated the album and never made any attempt to resurrect any of it in any future incarnation of ELP or either's solo touring bands. That was telling enough imo.
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Originally posted by Steve Wyzard Steve Wyzard wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

My final thought is that ELP did untold damage to their legacy with the awful Love Beach. That was a horror story and their collective reputations took a massive hit and somehow never recovered from it. That gave all the ammunition needed to the punks yet in spirit they were as rebellious as any punk band which is the strangely ironic thing about the whole affair!

Then they doubled down on what went wrong with Love Beach and gave us In the Hot Seat. I know many people on this site don't enjoy ELPowell and Black Moon, but I really feel these albums gave them a whole new fanbase without disparaging their 1970's legacy. And then they flushed it all away with In the Hot Seat. How many bands get to release TWO career-killing nightmares?

Fair. ITHS was slightly more excusable for reasons I won't go into and have detailed before. There was to be a new epic (Crossing The Rubicon being the working title I think) and a new album in the pipeline following some extensive touring in the late 90's but Greg Lake insisted on producing it (without any new songs to offer) and Emerson said 'no'. That was it for ELP (except for the 2010's live festival headline appearance at High Voltage). Emerson formed a very nice musical partnership with American Marc Bonilla for most of the 00's and 10's but never quite conquered those demons. Palmer keeps the flame alive with his ELP legacy band but the lack of audience numbers is often telling.
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^ Like much trad folk, it is sad, disturbing and tragic.

And you can't beat them pooks of hay.


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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^ interestingly, the synth riff to Touch and Go comes from an old English folk song. So, they didn’t really create that melody line, but rather adapted it. Lovely Joan
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A lot of people also forget that ELP were primarily a live band.  The Works tour also featured some fantastic renditions of their lesser known efforts - such as Carl Palmer's 'The Enemy God' (trio version, without orchestra) or 'Bolero'.  I am sure they would have transformed some of the 'Love Beach' material had they performed it live.  
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

My final thought is that ELP did untold damage to their legacy with the awful Love Beach. That was a horror story and their collective reputations took a massive hit and somehow never recovered from it. That gave all the ammunition needed to the punks yet in spirit they were as rebellious as any punk band which is the strangely ironic thing about the whole affair!

Then they doubled down on what went wrong with Love Beach and gave us In the Hot Seat. I know many people on this site don't enjoy ELPowell and Black Moon, but I really feel these albums gave them a whole new fanbase without disparaging their 1970's legacy. And then they flushed it all away with In the Hot Seat. How many bands get to release TWO career-killing nightmares?
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Six Wives is certainly in my top 20 favourite prog albums of all time.
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Said it many times before but PA listings tend to value consistency more than inspiration when it comes to album ratings. There is plenty wrong with the PA top 100 as far as I'm concerned, not just the lack of ELP. No Rick Wakeman albums at all (at least 2 should be in there) and he was a contemporary of ELP maybe even doing it better than them on Six Wives up to and inc White Rock. Scottish band Beggars Opera were also a tremendous band with all the chops of ELP. Their debut Act One was incredible. I think many reviewers actually don't appreciate this pure classical approach as Pedro suggests. The filler thing is a red herring imo. Just an excuse to mark them down for no good reason. For some reason Genesis can get away with Battle Of Epping Forest yet the knives are out when ELP do the 2 minute throwaway ditty BTB. My final thought is that ELP did untold damage to their legacy with the awful Love Beach. That was a horror story and their collective reputations took a massive hit and somehow never recovered from it. That gave all the ammunition needed to the punks yet in spirit they were as rebellious as any punk band which is the strangely ironic thing about the whole affair!


A Top 100 anywhere without a single Wakeman album is just wrong, I concur!

I'm not sure about the other part. But I've noticed that the classical approach started getting sidelined with the advent of a different sound promulgated by the likes of Porcupine Tree, The Pineapple Thief, Haken, Devin Townsend Project (and solo), The Mars Volta, etc. It happens.
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Originally posted by Faul_McCartney Faul_McCartney wrote:

For this young prog fan, ELP sounds much more dated to my ears than most of the other 70s bands. My guess is it's the focus on keyboards, but then again other bands with lots of Hammond or Moog don't seem dated in the same way so I'm not sure. (Still love them though, I own all their albums!) 
...

Hi,

Strange ... so the more conventional progrock bands since the 1970's are better? What are we wanting? More pop songs, with the same format and style and (above all) the same instrumentation?

I think, and I will restate this, I think ... that we are not listening to the music at all, and are, instead, wanting to hear what we want, not what an artist has to offer. It's OK to not be a "fan" that does not prefer ELP, but I am concerned with the idea that someone doing things very differently, is being judged as poor simply because it does not have the (preferred) setup for a rock band that ends up in the top 100 ... that's just nutz and crazy in my book.

In the 1970's, just like the 1960's, we all wanted the different stuff so we could get away from that teeny weeny stupid sound from the pop bands ... and now we criticize them for having broken the mold in half and blow the AM radio control (the hit radio with numbers!!!) to almost nothing these days.

This is about the artistry in the work of a band ... and just hearing the conventional crap that is listed is not exactly what most of us 50 some years ago got into the music for! WE wanted a change ... now, it's like forget the change, give me the numbered band and the hit .. .again ... the very thing we tried so hard to get away from!

History, my friend ... history ... and before we know it, we will need a major WW so the complete destruction of a lot of everything maybe ... maybe ... helps us find our way to something new ... it's not about the numbers, or the hits ... it's about the music itself.


Edited by moshkito - February 19 2025 at 09:15
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Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Trilogy is in my own top 10 and I love Works Vol.1. I think I'm a fan and I often go to Rachel's versions of Piano concerto N.1 and Tarkus.

But I have to admit that I listen to Camel and Renaissance more often

I love Trilogy and Works Vol. 1...Wink
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I absolutely love their first four albums; Tarkus is my favourite overall....I never really  connected with Brain Salad Surgery and what came after that....I prefer Triumvirat over ELP, though.....I saw ELP in concert in January of 1993 and they put on a dynamic show!

Edited by presdoug - February 19 2025 at 07:01
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Trilogy is in my own top 10 and I love Works Vol.1. I think I'm a fan and I often go to Rachel's versions of Piano concerto N.1 and Tarkus.

But I have to admit that I listen to Camel and Renaissance more often
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