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Was Pete Sinfield essential for King Crimson? |
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Sean Trane 
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Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20313 |
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 Posted: November 16 2024 at 03:48 |
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Confusion will be my epitaph
As I crawl, a cracked and broken path If we make it, we can all sit back and laugh But I fear tomorrow I'll be cryin Edited by Sean Trane - November 16 2024 at 03:49 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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richardh
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Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 28453 |
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Posted: November 16 2024 at 22:18 |
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He also wrote the lyrics to I Believe In Father Christmas. The 3 verses represent Past, Present and Future. Only The Pogues wrote a better albeit very different seasonal song (imo). RIP Pete.
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Starshiper
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Joined: September 08 2024 Location: Englantic Status: Offline Points: 2179 |
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Posted: November 17 2024 at 01:22 |
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Weaving complex narratives into the fabric of music, Peter Sinfield wove an intellectual framework that raised the work of King Crimson way beyond entertainment to something high and profoundly artistic. Those surrealistic images in Sinfield's lyrics found their perfect match in the innovative musical compositions by Fripp. Probably the most quintessential manifestation of that synergy was the 1969 debut album. Secondly, when Sinfield left King Crimson, his influence did not wane but instead became a milestone in the evolution of that band. After Sinfield's departure, King Crimson began to explore experimental rock. Sinfield's ethos that was set in band during its early era, however, could still be felt. For instance, "Starless" from "Red." Sinfield wasn't directly the author of "Starless," yet Sinfield-like lyrics have been woven into that beautiful song and brought melancholy, hauntingness, and drama. Sinfield's key role in shaping King Crimson's surrealistic style of the superior first four albums and his contribution to aiding Robert Fripp in music experimentalism can hardly be dismissed. It wasn't the case that Peter Sinfield's work only complements others in the band. Sinfield's work was literally the fabric of the revolution that King Crimson was in the heydays of progressive rock. |
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: November 17 2024 at 07:37 |
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Let's not forget that Pete Sinfield is the one who coined the name "King Crimson" (which is a might better than the accounting firm "Giles, Giles & Fripp"), and gave the band its darker Gothic leanings by the way of his lyrical mysticism. To say he wasn't instrumental in the band's genesis and creative thrust is ill-informed as it is nonsensical.
You literally cannot think of In the Court of the Crimson King by King Crimson without the words he wrote.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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cstack3
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Posted: November 17 2024 at 23:11 |
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Sounds to me like he was very much essential!
Sinfield was a do-anything figure during King Crimson's early years: He named the band, found their initial rehearsal space, served as King Crimson's original roadie and sound engineer, and operated the lights, as well. He also connected the band with his friend Barry Goldber, creator of the iconic cover image for their 1969 debut, In the Court of the Crimson King.
Read More: Original King Crimson Songwriter Peter Sinfield Dead at 80 | https://ultimateclassicrock.com/king-crimson-peter-sinfield-dies/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral |
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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
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Sean Trane
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Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20313 |
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Posted: November 18 2024 at 03:55 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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moshkito
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Posted: November 18 2024 at 06:48 |
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Hi, Not sure I would say "surrealistic" since so many of the images were REAL ... surrealism tends to make fun of the reality of things with images that ask questions about how/what you see. The IRA was not exactly throwing donkeys on pianos! Or VietNam!
RF, already at that time was studying Gurdjieff and some of the things inside. I think (I THINK) that the thought/idea of having some real lyrics/poetry instead of just some funky/funny/weird stuff as was the case in radio at the time, would make it better. Not to mention that a lot of the radio stuff IGNORED the news and the events, although we can't say that with the advent of VietNam, but it helped bring about the "truth" about a lot of the images that the news media was hiding from the public ... which a lot of folks took to heart and spoke out. ITCOTCK is a perfect snap shot of the time and place, in several aspects, and I think it was an eye opener when it came to some of the lyrics, although there were many in the USA already on that bandwagon. The innovation part I like, and think it is true, but I think that RF and the rest of the band, was able to see something that could be done within the context of a song, instead of just some poppy idea ... and I think that is what creativity is about, rather than just be topical. The only sad thing is that the rock media, a bit later, decided that "reality" was not what rock music was about, and here came the "fantasy" and the "crap", though some of it had "meaning", but I think that the fact that it was not direct and pointed straight at the source, was the part that made it ... weak for me. Example: Genesis ... while I like them, they were only "real" (and not imaginary) on TLLDOB ... how much of this took place because the English authorities were putting their foot down? Not sure, but they had the ability to tell/shut some studios to prevent recording by someone with a big mouth! 
RF has never really discussed that. I do think that this was a much more "group" effort, than otherwise. I don't know the words would have stood out without the music making adjustments to it, or otherwise ... I do think that it was the sense of the words that gave KC a much stronger desire to do something worthwhile .... which we/they could not possibly measure ... but it worked out really well, although in Madison, some radio folks did not like the 20th Century Schizoid Man at all, and instead played Epitaph, which was NOT exactly well received by many, in Dane County (Madison) who had several kids drafted and sent to VietNam ... and now you can see how some folks were scared some ... and there were a lot of demonstrations around the USA that some places did not want their kids sent to VietNam, which was a problem the media tended to not discuss, probably with some directives from the White House. The only sad thing, is that, TODAY, the Internet does not exactly like poetry or artistic anything, and a band like KC would likely not get enough attention today ... as much as we appreciate the work, when we look at the listings of "top this" or "top that", not enough of the bands listed have the same/similar artistic idea or design ... and now we all go look for Metallica's next album! (... so to speak ...). SIDE NOTE: One of the issues with creating apiece is do the words come first, or the music ... IF THE WORDS come first, you can illustrate the words better, but too much of pop/rock music is not about the words at all, but the riff, otherwise the guitar solo would make no sense! The wording, or lyrics, would define the expression, and you can really see this in Mick Jaegger, that has been very good in interpreting the words in a lot of their work, although 50+ years later we don't even think or worry about what Mick is saying or singing about ... his time is gone, I guess, but the expression came from film and theater, not rock music! And it's not like Mick was not aware of both ... even his girlfriend was doing West End, for crying out loud ... and he would not see it or ignore it? I don't think so ... I'm pretty sure that Mick was making sure that the words stood out, which he did before, but now it's like ... it was visible!
Edited by moshkito - November 21 2024 at 06:13 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Borris
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Joined: February 13 2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 44 |
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Posted: November 29 2024 at 03:49 |
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I think as fans we often talk as though a band is a distinct thing when they often aren't. The Beatles had the same line up from their first to their last, I'd say they were a band. KC had multiple line ups that all employed the same name and RF was in them all but no one else is stretches across them all.
On ITCOTCK Sinfield was an essential part, as is McDonald and Lake I would say those are the most important member on that album. McDonald was the main person who took Sinfield's lyrics and set them to music, his settings were great and Greg Lake delivered those songs with full conviction. I never got the sense that Fripp relates to lyrics much, but while Sinfield was around he had an impact, but for the debut the stars were aligned. ITCOTCK band was it's own thing, it was an essential development in music at the time, it is my favourite. |
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moshkito
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Posted: November 29 2024 at 10:24 |
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Hi, I think he does, or it wouldn't be there. I think his issue might be when the lyrics get beyond a certain point that it becomes really difficult to "interpret" musically, and this is an issue when things are not "real" and lyrics enter a realm of let's make believe, and/or ... fly along ... now the interpretation, musically might be a bit more difficult, but in all examples, and changes, RF has made his way through it just fine, and many times, creating some really neat bits and pieces. To rock music, it seems like "lyrics" are important to let us know what it is all about ... however, this is a harsh illusion for an audience, who might not relate to the lyrics as expressed, or designed, and this part is the difficult area to work on and explain!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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kenethlevine
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Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 8975 |
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Posted: November 29 2024 at 11:20 |
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At that place and time, his lyrics were absolutely an essential part of KC. It's all about place and time. Could you imagine "In the Court" with mundane love song lyrics, or "In the Wake of Poseidon" as a sailor's drinking song?
OK, maybe that would have been fun
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richardh
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Posted: November 29 2024 at 22:23 |
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Great summing up
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Sean Trane
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Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20313 |
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Posted: November 30 2024 at 01:10 |
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for proggy arrangements of Sea Shanties on Poseidon.I'm not sure the lyrics of Island (the album) are up to par with the first three albums, though.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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kenethlevine
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Posted: November 30 2024 at 18:30 |
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Hugues, as you can imagine I did love that performance and am now all about Mr Aufray who is apparently 95 now nand has been married 73 years!
However, I shall NOT be proposing him for prog folk Edited by kenethlevine - November 30 2024 at 18:31 |
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Sean Trane
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Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20313 |
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Posted: December 01 2024 at 04:38 |
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not only is he 95, but he is formidably fit and a powerhouse (a fairly big dude too). If I must name a candidate to Joubert's 126 years liftetime (tops for men), he's in my top 5 list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longevity_claim My mother named me after him. and no, he's not PA-able. |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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moshkito
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Posted: December 06 2024 at 07:26 |
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Hi, McDonald might have been the person that was the real illustrator for the music, and made sure that the lyrics were visible and made sense, and that each piece in the album stood out for its INTERPRETATION of the lyrical content. Again, this goes back to the issue of do the lyrics bring up the music, or does the music bring up the lyrics ... both work in rock music, however, the music "interpreting" the lyrics is considered much more ARTISTIC, than the opposite, when the bridge and the solo are the most important part of it all, and not exactly the lyrics, even though some singers are very good in this area ... but the music itself does not "come alive" because it is not leading the words. Here, you can easily see Robert Plant in LZ's first albums ... his way of singing is to make sure that their lyrics stand up and define the feelings, with Jimmy making sure he could improve. They had the secret and knew it ... the lyrics had to get stronger and better by the music, and IT DID! "Essential" is a scary term to use, in rock music when there are so many lyricists that are very good, but all in all ... they can never stop farting at the wind ... to make us believe that they are about something ... and both you and I like it, but we get tired of it fast enough ... this has been the case for me with Jon Anderson, and Ian Anderson. After a while, it's time to tune out! Originally, the stuff with Adrian Belew, did not sync with me at all, and it's only been the last 5 years that I have come to enjoy it a lot more. But, his lyrics, for example, did not exactly add a whole lot for KC ... as much as his ability in the guitar did ... but you can see how the lyrics kinda blotto out the band ... and taking the music into some areas that were too far out there ... probably even making RF uncomfortable with it ... I think he would have preferred a more structured area for the music, including lyrics, though I'm pretty sure he KNEW that he was not the one that was capable of writing the lyrical content for the bands' material.
Edited by moshkito - December 06 2024 at 07:28 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Sean Trane
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Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20313 |
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Posted: December 06 2024 at 15:28 |
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Actually, Ade's lyrics in Beat should've rang something with me in recent decades, since the album was thematic about the Beat Poets (Neal, Jack, Burroughs/Sartori), etc...), but the yrics aren't poetic the way Sinfield or RPJ's were. TBH, I hadn't started reading Kerouac, Ginsbergh, Hesse or Burroughs back then (early 80's), though I knew who and what they were. And I was expecting poetic lyrics, that were simply not there. |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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moshkito
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Posted: December 06 2024 at 19:25 |
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Hi, Poetic" can be deceiving ... specially when it is well represented and read. And this was a lot of the treasure that we found 50/60 years ago, when a whole bunch of "poets" were appearing on LP's and many of them were very well received, despite not being ... great. Ginsberg, for example, is an interesting one for me. Reading it, it doesn't bring up images much ... but then on one clip you hear him READING his work, and its ... wow ... that is good ... it's something that is not accepted, or understood well in rock music, in my book ... since everyone expects the same lyrics to be exactly like the original, and here is where Bob Dylan is probably more interesting, though I think that a lot of "progressive" folks would not exactly like him, just like Willie Nelson ... tomorrow it will be different and even the lyrics might change depending on the mood! This is something that is really difficult for most listeners, UNLESS we are used to working on the EXPRESSION, not necessarily the words, that we think are a poem. (Side Bit: Here, Fish is an example. As much as he was compared to PG, he is way better an actor than PG could be, although you and I could say that PG has written a lot of neat stuff, and Fish ... might not have stood up well in this area, but his expression has always been there!) That someone wanted to make the lyrics more alive in the case of Pete Sinfield, only states that he wrote nice stuff, but it would not fit into a riff and solo, if that is all that was done, and interpreting the words, would be the important thing, and here is where a lot of bands really fail ... and badly ... and think that "lyrics" should stand up regardless, and while I can accept a part of that, sometimes, the music behind it is not exactly the thing that helps it come alive. Reminds me of Laurie Anderson, using Burroughs in his earlier days, and while it was cool, and all that, it was also bizarre, since nothing in the music was really interpreting the words ... at least I did not think so ... I might think differently today some 40 years later! The nice thing is that rock music has tried to make it to the next level in writing something ... but I'm not sure that it can do a much more important and better job, by just working the riff, bridge and solo ... and even Taylor Swift states that on the title of her album ... a suggestion that in many ways, the words themselves, are losing the touch and ability to stand up and show something ... although my thought is that this is more a problem with the internet laissez-faire attitude and a complete lack of interest in any one's words, regardless of who the person is ... and sooner or later, this is going to turn really bad and hard on a religion or two ... I think it is like the history of literature ... we always loved the great stuff, and we remember its ways and stories ... and we hope that the lyrics do the same ... I like Singfield's work, but in my book it does not come close to Roy Harper or Pete Hammill or a few others.
Edited by moshkito - December 06 2024 at 19:28 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Tobique
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Posted: Yesterday at 19:37 |
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What is a "sea goat" anyways???
Some heathen demigod? I know my mythology pretty well and.... Seems in Sinfield's tune it is representing alienation??? Listening to a different drummer. A loner, a fool-on-the-hill. A solitary ascetic seeing beyond the mundaneness. |
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