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QM: Does Time exist?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wiz_d_kidd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 06:49
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Time, too, has a name but we don't know what it really is. So, if we take a slice from his three points universe, and put other slices before and after it, even in a loop if we want, this sequence represents time, but we need movement. If the slices are pages of a book, time/movement consists in turning the pages. What Barbour says is that "the whole book exists regardless the turning of the pages"


If each page represents a snapshot of the state of the universe, and if the whole book already exists, then the future state of the universe is predetermined -- hence, there is no free will. Our fate is already determined, as documented in "the book".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CosmicVibration Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 07:13
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ Which implies there is no 'God'.
One thing I agree with.

From a purely logical point of view:

If god is the creator of the universe, it doesn't exist inside its creation
If Universe means "everything that exists, things outside of it don't exist

Therefore god.

What if God didn't create the universe, but rather an infinitesimal part of his infinite being became the universe?  BTW, an infinitesimal part of infinity is still infinity. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CosmicVibration Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 07:28
Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Time, too, has a name but we don't know what it really is. So, if we take a slice from his three points universe, and put other slices before and after it, even in a loop if we want, this sequence represents time, but we need movement. If the slices are pages of a book, time/movement consists in turning the pages. What Barbour says is that "the whole book exists regardless the turning of the pages"


If each page represents a snapshot of the state of the universe, and if the whole book already exists, then the future state of the universe is predetermined -- hence, there is no free will. Our fate is already determined, as documented in "the book".

Why can't there be both, destiny/fate and freewill?  An analogy as to your soul's destiny is to go down a particular hallway, your journey will be from point A to point B.  How you go down that hallway is up to your free will.  You can walk, skip, run, crawl, open every single door or not.  If you have OCD you will tap on every single doorTongue

Another example as destiny would be a trip from NY to California.  That trip you must take as your destiny, the way you go about it is your free will.  Drive, fly, walk, run, bicycle, make several or no stops along the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 09:59
I don't pretend to know the truth or to have the answers. Anywaay:

Book and Freewill...the way the pages are aligned has surely some constraints. Teleport is possible in quantum mechanics, but non of us can be instantaneously teleported somewhere else. Consequently the page sequence can't be completely randomic.
Partially randomic,maybe. If i take a page, I guess there are many possible adjacent pages. This is where the free will can be. All the possibilities are in the book, but not all of them become actual.

About god... The idea of god coincident with the Universe is more or less the idea of Spinoza and partially of Einstein. But Can god/universe be conscious of what's inside?
We are not conscious of the chemical reactions that happen inside our cells even if they are part of our bodies. That god is likely indifferent to what happens inside






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 10:00
Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I read Barbour's book back when it came out. I remember it being a rather dry, difficult read. If I'm remembering it correctly, much of it had to do with Planck length (or maybe Planck time?) and the "nows" were separated by this. It's an interesting idea, but I sometimes wonder if this is just mathematics trying to find a different reality that may not actually be there. I never read Smolin's book.

Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

If consciousness (as we reckon it) didn't exist, then time wouldn't either.

That's a curious idea worthy of thinking about. It sort of reminds me a bit of Donald Hoffman's studies on this in which he considers consciousness as something fundamental in the universe and the physical world emerges from that. It's kind of hard to wrap my brain around that, but curious nonetheless.



Science boils down everything to just 2 components, energy and consciousness. All matter is energy fluctuations. Matter is not solid or motionless. If matter is comprised of energy, then can energy be
comprised of consciousness? If so, the physical world emerges from it, along with the universe and anything in creation. Tis all a dream..


Isn’t Hoffman the guy who says (in essence) that we are in a construct similar to a video game, limited by a VU headset (our brains eyes and senses) that isn’t capable of giving us the entire view of our surroundings? That our perception is limited and basically created by our collective consciousness? Maybe it is a dream like Einstein said “a very persistent dream” lol

Yes, that's the same Hoffmann. It's a very interesting take on reality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 10:32
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I read Barbour's book back when it came out. I remember it being a rather dry, difficult read. If I'm remembering it correctly, much of it had to do with Planck length (or maybe Planck time?) and the "nows" were separated by this. It's an interesting idea, but I sometimes wonder if this is just mathematics trying to find a different reality that may not actually be there. I never read Smolin's book.

Originally posted by Valdez Valdez wrote:

If consciousness (as we reckon it) didn't exist, then time wouldn't either.

That's a curious idea worthy of thinking about. It sort of reminds me a bit of Donald Hoffman's studies on this in which he considers consciousness as something fundamental in the universe and the physical world emerges from that. It's kind of hard to wrap my brain around that, but curious nonetheless.



The thing about Plank's length (or time) is one of the most discussed ideas in physics and something that really intrigues me. 
In geometry we have the concept of nondimensional points. Also in analisys we consider infinitely short distances when calculating integrals.

But what if the Planck's length is the shortest possible distance? Planck's time is the time taken by light to cross a Planck length, so about 6*10^-33cm are crossed in 10^-44 secs.

The consequences of it is that:

subatomic perticles can't be punctiform. They can't be shorter than a Planck length
a Black hole can't have a singularity inside
Time and space are discontinuous. A clock can't tick faster than 10^-44 seconds

In my opinion the most important consequence from a phylosophical point of view is that "Actual infinities can't exist".  

I believe the Planck length is the shortest possible distance. If my memory is correct, attempts to measure smaller distances require such an amount of energy that a black hole would form. It sounds like the laws of physics break down beyond such barriers (or are inapplicable). I think the assertions you make may be correct. 

I wish I had paid more attention in the one physics course I took dealing with QM, but that was more than 30 years ago and never dealt with topics like this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 11:19
If time didn't exist how could there be time signatures in music?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 11:24
Quote If time didn't exist how could there be time signatures in music?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 11:26
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Time is relative.  For an individual, extreme fear and pain make the perception of time elongate.  Changes in habits or your daily routine can elongate the perception of time.  If you play video games or D&D the individual perception of time passes comparatively rapidly. 

Looking back at past events, I find it strange that two events that occurred simultaneously seem to differ immensely in my time perception.  I married my husband several years post-911.  Yet, 911 seems like it happened only a few years ago, whereas it seems like I've been married much longer. 

It's weird how my perception of time dovetails into Einstein's theory of relativity. For us, time moves faster and slower at the same time. Einstein's time dilation describes the difference of time that has elapsed between two events...measured by two or more observers moving relative to each other. The faster we go, the more time is affected. 

 I wonder if Einstein's theory of relativity bleeds over into our individual perception of two events that occurred at the same time.  Am I the same observer or two versions of me who witnessed two simultaneous events, but perceives the two events occurred at different times? I've spent much more time observing my marriage/husband than 911.  Is that why 911 seems like yesterday?  Wink 
I'd think that the topic of subjective perception of time is more or less strictly separated from the treatment of time in physics, and that the latter has little to say about the former. But then I'm not a physicist and not sure about this, so it's an interesting thing to bring up. 

In other news, I'd think that anything that appears is human language (as "time" does but also things the "existence" of which seems even less controversial) can be legitimately seen as  a human construct, and this makes the concept of "existence" problematic, as checking existence of anything (meant as independent of human perception) would require to go beyond language and beyond human perception actually.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 11:54
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

If time didn't exist how could there be time signatures in music?


We have used the metaphor of turning the pages of a book. In that case it may be a sheet, instead.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 12:41
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

If time didn't exist how could there be time signatures in music?


We have used the metaphor of turning the pages of a book. In that case it may be a sheet, instead.


Time exists so that we don't experience everything simultaneously. Whatever the quantum mechanics may be is quite irrelevant to what we perceive.

Even if the universe exists as a nonlinear temporal singularity like a CD sitting on a shelf, we as humans and our reality transmitter apparatuses (aka the brain) experience time as if we have our brains set to the "play" mode of a CD player. 

There have been rare cases where people experience temporal anomalies thus exposing the unified nature of space and time so it seems the question here is what is time on a mechanical level as opposed to what it means to be a sentient conscious being perceiving reality in the 3D construct.

Those who experience clairvoyance seem to have access to timelines beyond the present moment. How this occurs is a mystery yet gives insight into the illusion of what time is however i think it's fair to say that it does exist without having any explanation of what its true nature is.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 16:20
What we experience is not how the universe really behaves. Of course, even if time doesn't exist, I can be late at work because this is how I perceive it. 
Understanding how it really works is the main purpose of every science.
You can't directly perceive the time dilation because it's too little, but your mobile phone does.

Think to the holographic principle: if we are really projections and the universe is the bi-dimensional internal surface of a sphere, this won't prevent me from crashing on a 3d wall. The omnipresent pages of the book won't make me back to life after my death, but knowing how they are shaoed may possibly give us the capacity of travelling in time or to alternate realities (well this is too SciFi, but it's just to make an example). 

What if time exists but is not linear? Somebody, maybe Kip Thorne but I'm not sure, has made some calculus about the possibility of life in universes with different numbers of dimensions and realized that an universe with two time dimensions can't allow chemistry.

Kurt Godel has examined the possibility of time travels and has found a solution of the Relativity equations that allows it, but it's possible only in an Universe shaped as a cylinder rotating on its asses at a certain speed, so it's nothing more than a mathematical construct.

Barbour's universe (let's call it this way) comprehends all the possible permutations of 10^80 protons inside the volume of the actual Universe. It's a very big number but it's not infinite. 

If the universe is infinite, an exact copy of us exists at approx 10^10^113 meters from here, and infinite copies are preset. Infinity is a bad thing in an actual universe: it means that there are part of it where Mickey Mouse and Cthulhu are real.

But your metaphor of the "play" mode is very consistent and doesn't contradict the possibility of a Barbour's universe. I too have experienced something like temporal anomalies, but I don't trust on my perceptions. They were likely an illusion created but my brain trying to explain something apparently weird, the same thing that brain does when we catch external stimulations while we dream. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2024 at 16:26
Sometimes it's easy to engage in mental masturbation and overlook the obvious.

Time exists BECAUSE we perceive it.

Babies become adults not the other way around.

The very fabric of our 3D construct is dependent on the dimension of time as an integral element.

Perhaps it's all a holographic illusion but still valid in our bubble of reality.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2024 at 01:05
What we are saying is not too different. But the only physical phenomenon which is aligned with the time arrow is enthropy. The probabliity of a seeing broken egg reverts the process and becomes integer again is extremely low but is more than zero. So can we say that experiencing time is experiencing enthropy? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Floydoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2024 at 01:44
^entropy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2024 at 07:00
^thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2024 at 08:15
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

 So can we say that experiencing time is experiencing enthropy? 


Um, no! Entropy has specific scientific definitions. It can be a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work.

It can be a measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message.

It can mean the tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve towards a state of inert uniformity.

Or it can mean what most know it as and that is the inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.

Time would be the exact opposite as it's a unidirectional experience of the passing of events.

You are mixing up two totally different concepts of reality.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2024 at 09:59
Entropy as arrow of time is not my own idea. I don't remember where I've read it first, but it comes from theoretical physics. Probably from a Feynman's book.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2024 at 10:03
Searching on the web it looks like the first to associate entropy with time arrow has been Sir Arthur Eddington, so it's an idea about 1 century old.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2024 at 10:16
Found this:




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