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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

English prog was born as a neutral movement in relation to politics, it was not born out of youth protests, out of the hangouts of political militants. This means that English prog is not politically oriented. (But there may be some political prog songs).

Again, it's a question of the used definition of "the political", but anyway, in my opinion and as for instance Edward Macan more or less documents it in his Rocking the Classics, English Prog was born very much out of the '60s counterculture movement and was in many ways in opposition to the mainstream culture and the social order.


Edited by David_D - November 05 2024 at 05:38
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Quote I can add that in Italy, where rock tradition was weak, there was, instead a rich tradition of classic music and prog rock was associated to the cultured musician of classic music.
It's funny that even though Germany also had a rich classical tradition (W.A. Mozart, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe et al.), the prog rock bands ditched all this shіt, and instead chose to poorly disguise themselves as Englishmen (eg. Triumvirat, Sirius, Tritonus...). xD In hindsight, I find it quite laughable.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

English prog was born as a neutral movement in relation to politics, it was not born out of youth protests, out of the hangouts of political militants. This means that English prog is not politically oriented. (But there may be some political prog songs).

Again, it's a question of the used definition of "the political", but anyway, in my opinion and as for instance Edward Macan more or less documents it in his Rocking the Classics, English Prog was born very much out of the '60s counterculture movement and was in many ways in opposition to the mainstream culture and the social order.

I havent read Rocking The Classics.
But we must distinguish politics from custom: even rock and roll (Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry and JerrY Lee Lewis) was in opposition to the mainstream culture, but it was essentially a phenomenon of custom, without political connotations.

In Italy music had political connotations, for example many artists and groups were contested from the public for political reasons. This phenomenon was not at all happened in the UK. 

In Italy, Le Orme were contested for the song "Gioco di bimba" (and for other songs) and Area contested Pfm for "Dolcissima Maria": they were too sentimental, sappy songs - not fit as leftish song.
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Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote I can add that in Italy, where rock tradition was weak, there was, instead a rich tradition of classic music and prog rock was associated to the cultured musician of classic music.
It's funny that even though Germany also had a rich classical tradition (W.A. Mozart, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe et al.), the prog rock bands ditched all this shіt, and instead chose to poorly disguise themselves as Englishmen (eg. Triumvirat, Sirius, Tritonus...). xD In hindsight, I find it quite laughable.
As far as Triumvirat goes, leader Juergen Fritz was an Honours student at the Cologne Conservatory, and was classically trained, and it shows in their music; obviously, they did not throw out the classical tradition, but merged it with rock music; I guess that's why they called it "Classical rock" as well as "Progressive rock". (for example, the very beginning of Triumvirat's debut album is a brilliant transcription of the Mozart overture to the opera "The Abduction Of The Seraglio".)

Edited by presdoug - November 05 2024 at 07:18
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Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote "Progressive rock in the English-speaking world had no political orientation: it could have functions of social commentary (Jethro Tull and King Crimson) or philosophical (Moody Blues) or existential (VdGG) or spiritual (Yes)
I see this as a good thing. That's what made the English language prog rock equally as emotionally charged as the Italian scene but in the long run, way more timeless.

I'd say that it's the rather strong ideological (broadly defined) engagement of the English Prog that made it such creative, great and "timeless" - and quite the same with the German Krautrock, Italian Prog and a lot of other Prog.


Edited by David_D - November 06 2024 at 06:30
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In 1967 a university student of literature who was reduced from a trip to the US in search of the places Bob Dylan talked about made his first appearance on Italian public TV.
His name was Francesco Guccini and he was already 27 years old.
In those years, public TV only broadcast entertainment programs, with melodic songs in the Sanremo Festival's style, that is, love songs with banal lyrics.
Guccini brought a song called "Auschwitz - Song of the child in the wind", with lyrics that no one would have ever imagined at the time.
It was a great event.


I died with a hundred others, I died as a child,
passed through the chimney and now I'm in the wind....

In Auschwitz there was snow, the smoke rose slowly
In the cold winter day and now I am in the wind, now I am in the wind...

I ask when will man be able to learn
To live without killing and the wind will settle and the wind will settle...




Edited by jamesbaldwin - November 05 2024 at 12:22
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Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote I can add that in Italy, where rock tradition was weak, there was, instead a rich tradition of classic music and prog rock was associated to the cultured musician of classic music.
It's funny that even though Germany also had a rich classical tradition (W.A. Mozart, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe et al.), the prog rock bands ditched all this shіt, and instead chose to poorly disguise themselves as Englishmen (eg. Triumvirat, Sirius, Tritonus...). xD In hindsight, I find it quite laughable.
As far as Triumvirat goes, leader Juergen Fritz was an Honours student at the Cologne Conservatory, and was classically trained, and it shows in their music; obviously, they did not throw out the classical tradition, but merged it with rock music; I guess that's why they called it "Classical rock" as well as "Progressive rock". (for example, the very beginning of Triumvirat's debut album is a brilliant transcription of the Mozart overture to the opera "The Abduction Of The Seraglio".)
Guess Triumvirat isn't the perfect example. My point is that a lot of non-Krautrock related 70's (West) German prog rock acts tried to mask their German-ness. They would sing only in English, make no references to the German art/culture, avoid Germany-specific social commentary like a plague and so on. The Italians were much more open about their own history, politics and nationality.
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One year after "Auschwitz", included in the first album by Guccini (1967), Folk Beat N. 1, 

Another 27-year-old university student, Fabrizio De André, appears on the Italian music scene with his debut album that has Gian Piero Reverberi (a cultured musician later with Le Orme) as arranger and producer, and indeed the arrangements are sometimes baroque as in this song, written in an archaic, almost Renaissance Italian.



Both Guccini and De André surrounded themselves with musicians from the prog scene, while remaining singer-songwriters. De André, however, would often leave the writing of the music and the arrangements to very refined musicians, thus creating a very musically sophisticated form of song, at times baroque, at times neoclassical, at times ethnic in a world music style, and it is for this reason that only he appears here on Progarchives in the prog-related section. At the end of the 1970s, he made a famous tour with Pfm, who made new arrangements to his songs.

De Andrè and Guccini, born in 1940, are today considered the fathers of Italian songwriting, both educated men of letters, poets of civil and political inspiration - they were both anarchists.




Edited by jamesbaldwin - November 06 2024 at 12:31
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

When talking about Denmark in the '70s, I think that the most countercultural/leftist band with at least some progressive leanings was Savage Rose.
In 1972, Savage Rose made the album Dødens Triumf (The Triumph of Death). It's some music written for a ballet by one of the most appreciated choreographers in the '70s Denmark, Flemming Flindt. It may not sound that counterculturally, but it was a ballet based on Jeu de Massacre, a play by Eugené Ionescu, and on the back cover of this album was a quote from the book The Wretched of the Earth (1961) by Frantz Fanon, a French Afro-Caribbean psychiatrist, political philosopher, and Marxist from the French colony of Martinique (today a French department).* 
The quote says:
"Leave this Europe where they are never done talking of Man, yet murder men everywhere they find them, at the corner of every one of their own streets, in all the corners of the globe. For centuries they have stifled almost the whole of humanity in the name of a so-called spiritual experience. Look at them today swaying between atomic and spiritual disintegration."

(The quote on the back cover is translated to Danish, while I quote it here in an English version as it's transcribed and printed by https://www.marxists.org/subject/africa/fanon/conclusion.htm 
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frantz_Fanon )


Edited by David_D - November 07 2024 at 06:06
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^ Dødens Triumf is all-instrumental except from the last track, "Dear little Mother", and here it is with Annisette's very special vocals:

           


Dear little Mother

Dear little Mother
What's in your bag?
Chocolate and sweets
Dear Mr. Postman
What's in your bag?
A note from your beloved
Dear Mr. Tailor
What's in your bag?
The finest wedding dress
Dear Mr. Harvester
What's in your bag?
Solitude and death


Edited by David_D - November 08 2024 at 03:05
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

When talking about Denmark in the '70s, I think that the most countercultural/leftist band with at least some progressive leanings was Savage Rose.
In 1972, Savage Rose made the album Dødens Triumf (The Triumph of Death). It's some music written for a ballet by one of the most appreciated choreographers in the '70s Denmark, Flemming Flindt. It may not sound that counterculturally, but it was a ballet based on Jeu de Massacre, a play by Eugené Ionescu, and on the back cover of this album was a quote from the book The Wretched of the Earth (1961) by Frantz Fanon, a French Afro-Caribbean psychiatrist, political philosopher, and Marxist from the French colony of Martinique (today a French department).* 
The quote says:
"Leave this Europe where they are never done talking of Man, yet murder men everywhere they find them, at the corner of every one of their own streets, in all the corners of the globe. For centuries they have stifled almost the whole of humanity in the name of a so-called spiritual experience. Look at them today swaying between atomic and spiritual disintegration."

(The quote on the back cover is translated to Danish, while I quote it here in an English version as it's transcribed and printed by https://www.marxists.org/subject/africa/fanon/conclusion.htm 
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frantz_Fanon )

I know Fanon and Ionesco. Very interesting.

I am totally ignorant of Danish music, I will ask you for a nice list of prog and folk albums, and songwriters albums, to listen to.
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

I am totally ignorant of Danish music, I will ask you for a nice list of prog and folk albums, and songwriters albums, to listen to.

Actually, my own opinion about Danish music isn't very high, and my collection of it is very small. But here're some albums of the kind you ask for that I'm fond of and can recommend:

Progressive music

Ache  (DK)  -  De Homine Urbano   (1970, quite interesting Prog-historically and an example of rare Danish Symphonic)

Bazaar  (DK)  -  Bazaar Live  (1978, Prog Folk / World Fusion with East European, Turkish and Middle East influences)

Burnin’ Red Ivanhoe  (DK)  -  W.W.W.  (1971, one of the most internationally appreciated Danish Prog bands)

Secret Oyster  (DK)  -  Sea Sun  (1974, my absolutely fave Danish band since high school)

Sievert & Tolonen  (DK)  -  After Three Days  (1978, Jazz Fusion with Latin and other influences)


Non-progressive or not quite

Bifrost  (DK)  -  Bifrost  (1976, very melodic/mainstream Folk-Rock, Danish vocals)

Kræn Bysted  (DK)  - Stavnsbundet   (1980, very political Folk-Rock, Danish vocals)

Savage Rose  (DK)  -  Dødens Triumf   (1972, ballet soundtrack, very special female vocalist)

Sh*t & Chanel  (DK)  -  Shit & Chanel   (1975, all-female, very nice, soft, non-complex Jazz-Rock , Danish vocals)



Edited by David_D - November 09 2024 at 02:09
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Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

[quote]
...
It's funny that even though Germany also had a rich classical tradition (W.A. Mozart, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe et al.), the prog rock bands ditched all this shіt, and instead chose to poorly disguise themselves as Englishmen (eg. Triumvirat, Sirius, Tritonus...). xD In hindsight, I find it quite laughable.

Hi,

If you see the extended krautrock special, (the one with 6 parts -- the 6th is busted up because of the mention of David Bowie) ... Edgar Froese has some choice words on this ... it was intentional and a way to define something new for themselves and each other ... and only Holger and the Can website ever really mentioned the "anti-western" culture ideas .... something new and exciting ... which for the new generation was much more important than the old line of the arts ... I don't think that they were exactly thought of as bad, but the time had come for something else ... and sometimes, you have to let mom and dad go so you can grow up and be yourself ... it's rather simple, and I think that Edgar was right about this ... big time!

I don't think that the Germans disguised themselves as anything but themselves (krautrock would not have developed without it !!!!), however, we all know and there is a massive history of it, that the media and the record companies INTENTIONALLY ignored the majority of the new music, until ... you got it ... all of a sudden it is selling big time in France, England and many other countries, and at that point the German companies watch their eyes light up ... money going away ... can't have that!

In my book the only struggle to it all, was the media associating everything with VietNam and other political issues, and in the case of American media making sure that they made all the Western Culture scenes, dirty and ugly and smelly ... even though some bands are appreciated these days, about the only ones that survived it, were the original Beat Poets ... but, for them, it appeared to not have quite a political point, as much as an individual and fun/party thing, complete with a colorful bus ... without which we probably would have ignored the whole thing ... how bizarre that notion seems to us all that it might not have gone any further?


Edited by moshkito - November 08 2024 at 23:18
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Quote Guess Triumvirat isn't the perfect example. My point is that a lot of non-Krautrock related 70's (West) German prog rock acts tried to mask their German-ness. They would sing only in English, make no references to the German art/culture, avoid Germany-specific social commentary like a plague and so on. The Italians were much more open about their own history, politics and nationality.

Read my posts carefully, mosh. I specifically stated that I'm not counting the so called "krautrock" bands.
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

I am totally ignorant of Danish music, I will ask you for a nice list of prog and folk albums, and songwriters albums, to listen to.

None of my favourites but two more of, what I think as, the most appreciated Danish Singer-Songwriters in the '70s Denmark:

Sebastian (DK) - Den Store Flugt  (1972)
Kim Larsen (DK) - Værsgo  (1973)


Edited by David_D - November 09 2024 at 12:15
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Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Why was it in Italy, unlike in home country England, that Pawn Hearts was so successful?
Pawn Hearts, with its intricate songs peppered with Peter Hammill's crazy and dramatical singing, was a very appealing record for the then-Italian audiences looking for something beyond typical rock. The appreciation for intellectualism and artistic expression in Italy greatly influenced the reception of Van der Graaf Generator. The band's philosophical and existential lyrical themes struck a chord with Italian fans. In England, the Van der Graaf Generator has been overshadowed by both those acts from more commercially successful genres and by progressive rock bands that were easier to listen to.

Also, unlike British radio, which primarily focused on commercial hit singles, Italian radio frequently featured full albums or longer tracks. This approach enabled progressive bands like Van der Graaf Generator to reach wider audiences by highlighting their artistic qualities rather than solely their commercial appeal.

Rock concerts in Italy, especially those highlighting experimentalism, would become shared experiences where bonds between fans and bands alike were forged through their mutual appreciation of complex musical stories. The live performances of Van der Graaf Generator utterly fascinated such an Italian audience back then.

VdGG toured Italy when most British bands were either absent from Italy or orientated towards other markets like the U.S. It thus allowed them to secure a more dedicated audience there than they managed to achieve in England, where their concerts were emotionally not so participatory. In Italy, the concerts of the bands like VdGG evolved into collective events that strengthened the bond between fans and artists and among fans themselves.

Last but not least, Italy had its underground music scene back in the late sixties, which prepared both the audience and critics for the arrival of things like progressive rock and bands like Van der Graaf Generator. One just has to listen to this 18-minute avant-rock song by the band Le Stelle di Mario Schifano, actually the entire A-side of their originally red-coloured vinyl LP, released in 1967.
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Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

[quote]Guess Triumvirat isn't the perfect example. My point is that a lot of non-Krautrock related 70's (West) German prog rock acts tried to mask their German-ness. They would sing only in English, make no references to the German art/culture, avoid Germany-specific social commentary like a plague and so on. The Italians were much more open about their own history, politics and nationality.


Hi,

I'm not going to disagree on this at all ... however, I think that when the market started appearing in Germany (opening up to locals) things changed ... when Harvest came along and offered to release an album or two, Triumvirate would likely not have a choice to do these in English or not ... so it could sell in other places as well ... I would not consider that "masking" much, but a factor of the time and place. There are a couple of other releases by Harvest that also sang in English ... but then, you can look at Scorpions first album and they were singing in English, which means they knew where they could sell their stuff and singing in German was limiting their audience.

IN this specific situation, I do not look at things as krautrock or not, since they are all pretty much in the same situation ... simply trying to sell some things and make a go of it. AD2 sang a lot in English, but did not shy away from using German when it seemed to make sense and it could be consider a satire, if not something else.

BTW, the Germans could not exactly discuss history, politics and nationality at the time ... it was a part of their "restoration" and one of the conditions for many previous teachers in the old regime to be able to be employed and do some good ... they had to remain neutral, and this was rather clear in most "krautrock" areas, which at least one book defines 5 or 6 separate areas, all with very different agendas and ideas, that helped create a lot of music, very different ... and in some ways a bit of politics did make it through even if disguised a bit ... again, in my book, and the other huge one, to consider one band this and the other band from Munich something else, is a bit weird ... still the same country, but their work is vastly different, even more so on folks from Berlin.

The very early issues of EUROCK  shows the beginnings, of this era faithfully and with a lot of things that did not come to be known ... there was a lot of experimentation and things done, and I don't know if it fits properly, the discussion it is this or not ... and take away the freedom that a lot of that music showed us could take place ... even in PAm we do not believe that this can happen, EVER, again. We dismiss art left and right, and we all know that these things rarely happen on their own by accident.


Edited by moshkito - November 09 2024 at 09:12
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Again, it's a question of the used definition of "the political", but anyway, in my opinion and as for instance Edward Macan more or less documents it in his Rocking the Classics, English Prog was born very much out of the '60s counterculture movement and was in many ways in opposition to the mainstream culture and the social order.

I havent read Rocking The Classics.
......................

I can very much recommend this book as still the main study of the English Progressive Rock in the 1970s.
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

[quote]
...
It's funny that even though Germany also had a rich classical tradition (W.A. Mozart, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe et al.), the prog rock bands ditched all this shіt, and instead chose to poorly disguise themselves as Englishmen (eg. Triumvirat, Sirius, Tritonus...). xD In hindsight, I find it quite laughable.

Hi,

If you see the extended krautrock special, (the one with 6 parts -- the 6th is busted up because of the mention of David Bowie) ... Edgar Froese has some choice words on this ... it was intentional and a way to define something new for themselves and each other ... and only Holger and the Can website ever really mentioned the "anti-western" culture ideas .... something new and exciting ... which for the new generation was much more important than the old line of the arts ... I don't think that they were exactly thought of as bad, but the time had come for something else ... and sometimes, you have to let mom and dad go so you can grow up and be yourself ... it's rather simple, and I think that Edgar was right about this ... big time!

I don't think that the Germans disguised themselves as anything but themselves (krautrock would not have developed without it !!!!), however, we all know and there is a massive history of it, that the media and the record companies INTENTIONALLY ignored the majority of the new music, until ... you got it ... all of a sudden it is selling big time in France, England and many other countries, and at that point the German companies watch their eyes light up ... money going away ... can't have that!

In my book the only struggle to it all, was the media associating everything with VietNam and other political issues, and in the case of American media making sure that they made all the Western Culture scenes, dirty and ugly and smelly ... even though some bands are appreciated these days, about the only ones that survived it, were the original Beat Poets ... but, for them, it appeared to not have quite a political point, as much as an individual and fun/party thing, complete with a colorful bus ... without which we probably would have ignored the whole thing ... how bizarre that notion seems to us all that it might not have gone any further?
An important point you bring up; Triumvirat are a prime example; they were ignored by the German press pretty well completely at first, then they went to America and things really picked up for them, saleswise, what with a couple of albums in the Top 50 and Top 30 charts, respectively, and then, all of a sudden, Germany was paying attention, and wanting interviews with the band, etc. ....$$$$......
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Points: 17497 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2024 at 08:08
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

...
An important point you bring up; Triumvirat are a prime example; they were ignored by the German press pretty well completely at first, then they went to America and things really picked up for them, saleswise, what with a couple of albums in the Top 50 and Top 30 charts, respectively, and then, all of a sudden, Germany was paying attention, and wanting interviews with the band, etc. ....$$$$......

Hi,

Guy Guden, of Space Pirate Radio, likely is the one that deserves the most praise for all this ... I had been, for several years (we were roommates then), a collector of all things HARVEST, and already had almost all of the folks listed in the Hipgnosis Cereal Box inner sleeve, with the bands listed as "ingredients". And just right after SPR got on the air full time (Jan 27th 1974), a lot of Harvest stuff showed up ... Triumvirat and Kayak and Eloy ... and I went on the lam looking for more and found other things ... Cherubin, Tanned Leather and Uno, for example, and I'm not sure I found any more after that.

All of these got airplay on Guy's show, be it the special Sunday Night SPR (all imports then, no American stuff), or any other night time that he was on the air, which was still very heavy on the Europeans, unlike the rest of the station.

BTW, it was the Album Cover Book, and the Hipgnosis Book that helped chase down a lot of these things, and there were STILL a lot of things I never really listened to or got a good feel on. But I think we nailed down the best and most important work around ... and I have examples that it was played! Something, that sadly, someone specified that I was just inventing crap for the sake of a post. I can't even reply to that ... and that poster will need to live with his ideas of "fake" out there ... can't even tell the truth from a lie, kind of thing!

In general, I chased down anything Roger Dean or Harvest. I did drop off Roger Dean quickly even though the art work was so pretty ... but it had to substance to the music itself. Hipgnosis, kinda came off as an EDITORIAL for the whole thing, which made easier to understand and get ... you kinda knew that you were on the same wavelength as the band and the art around it ... and this became even better and more visible with 10CC later. ... but Mandy was dead!


Edited by moshkito - November 10 2024 at 08:12
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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