India and Christianity

Gdub:

As a minister, I support your feelings here.  Three comments.

First, it was not just India; indeed, India did not suffer nearly as much as some other countries.  Still, the devastation there was horrible.

Second, although 70% of the population is Hindu, most of the remaining population is split about evenly between Christian and Muslim.

Finally, it would be amusing if it were not so sad that people are always "accusing" God when "bad" things happen.  They forget that, while God is all-powerful, and can intervene if He so chooses (which He does not do often; but that is another discussion), He is not "the ruler of this [temporal] world."  That title belongs to Satan.  As the cliche goes, "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people that he didn't exist."  This is why people are so quick to blame God, rather than the enemy.  A good example of this was 9/11.  When 3,000 innocent people lost their lives at the WTC, many people - including clergy of all faiths - were asking "Where was God?"  One bright, Scripture-read minister did not even flinch when asked this question.  His answer?  "God was busy helping to save the 45,000 people who got out of the buildings alive: some in - need it be said? - miraculous ways."

Peace.

Reed Lover:

The line "the greatest trick..." did not originate with The Usual Suspects.  It has been around for a very long time, and its original meaning pertained to Christians who believe in God but do not believe in Satan.  And although every Christian you know may believe in the devil, there are literally millions of Christians (i.e., people who self-identify as "Christian") who do not.

Peace.

maani wrote: Reed Lover: The line "the greatest trick..." did not originate with The Usual Suspects.  It has been around for a very long time, and its original meaning pertained to Christians who believe in God but do not believe in Satan.  And although every Christian you know may believe in the devil, there are literally millions of Christians (i.e., people who self-identify as "Christian") who do not. Peace.

Maybe things are different in the USA but my experience suggests that every Catholic  (I know I have not sought the opinion of every citizen) believes in the Devil.I acknowledge that Catholics do not account for all Christians, however all Christians I have discussed religion with believe in the Devil.

Surely you, yourself do not believe in The Devil? Belief in God and Christ is one thing, but to believe in a metaphor shows a certain lack of sophistication in my opinion.

To suggest that the WTC Tragedy was the work of the Devil in anything other than a metaphorical sense is Christian Fundamentalism at its most crass.Terrorism, religious terrorism , religious fundamental evangelism was responsible for that atrocity- a very man-made act. It does not make me question God, of course I am not a believer myself,it makes me question humanity though.

However at least these claims are consistent.Many people believe that man created "God" to clarify things that he couldnt understand or explain.Once you decide that God is responsible for all the good things how do you account for the bad things? Maybe He is angry, maybe He moves in mysterious ways or maybe there is an opposite to God-the Devil (evil).
As religion is a sure-fire method of mass subjugation, the thought of eternal damnation is a guarantee of adherence. What a wonderful invention of the early Christians Satan is. He takes the blame away from God and also herds the faithful into His churches.

As  for events of nature Jesus said it rains on the just and the unjust.  I think it is enough to know that these events affect everyone. No one of faith should be laying claim to the devil doing this or this is Gods judgement on something or some one.  

Reed Lover:

You say "belief in God and Christ" is one thing, but that belief in the devil is another.  Umm...not if one believes the Scriptures, which I do.  Indeed, you simply cannot believe in Christ without believing in the devil, because Christ spoke about him so often, and so directly.  No "metaphor" involved: Christ makes it very clear that Satan is very real, and very active.

Indeed, consider that immediately after we are "introduced" to Jesus for the very first time - in a brief handful of passages relating to His baptism by John (Matthew 3:13-17) - He is immediately "led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil" (Matthew 4:1).  Thus, our very introduction to Christ is in the "company" of Satan.  This is not a "metaphorical" devil being talked about, it is a very real figure.

Indeed, even setting aside the many comments about "the enemy," "the devil" and "Satan" made by Paul and the apostles, Jesus Himself mentions "the enemy," "the devil" and "Satan" over 25 times.  And in every case He is talking about a very real figure - not a "metaphor."

Thus, I do not feel that belief in Satan shows a "lack of sophistication," or that referring to the "work of the devil" as "anything other than metaphorical" is "crass."  Indeed, as stated, as a Christian I would be wary of any "Christian" who does not believe in a very real, very active "enemy," since Christ Himself not only "believed" in Satan, but confronted him "mano a mano."

Whatever you may think of Christianity, fundmentalism, etc., a Christian either believes in the Scriptures or s/he does not.  If s/he does, then s/he cannot "cherry-pick": if s/he believes in Christ then s/he must believe in Satan.  That is "consistent."

Again, I respect anyone's belief or non-belief, and every person's right to disagree with or even disdain the faith I believe in.  But, both as a Christian and a minister, I do expect that, if the Scriptures are going to be quoted, cited, or otherwise discussed, then they be discussed from a position of careful reading, or at least of basic knowledge backed by Scripture itself.  Anything short of this is like discussing a movie one has never seen.

Peace.

gdub411 wrote: Lately I have been hearing many  Christians making comments or asking questions or setting up polls as whether the unfortunate events that happened in India was a warning from God or not. I,being a Christian and a republican found this to be offensive. It is things like this that give normal Christians and republicans for that matter, a bad name. I just wanted to let you know I am NOT in their camp for this line of thinking, nor would I hope are most christians and republicans. It is these radicals that pervert what either organization is all about and give the rest of the world justicification to sneer at our ways. Please understand that these people make up only a small minority of republicans anr christians and most of us do not condone this line of thinking. Thanks Greg

What camp are you in gdub??

A small minority? Are you sure about that? It was thanks to 'fundamenralist' Christians that Bush won his second term. There are believed to be over 35 million Christians in the US who believe that we are in 'End of times' They believe that God is acting. These evangelical lunatics are ensuring the pre conditions for Christs return to Earth. Its interesting to note that these guys regard themselves as normal Christians.

When Bush 'pressured' Ariel Sharon to dismantle Jewish settlements in the West Bank, the White house was bombarded by over 250,000 furious e-mails from right wing Christians threatening to stop supporting the Republicans if they did anything to harm the Jewish state. They of course believe that Jews will convert to Christianity when Christ returns to Earth. They regard Sharon as a hero - despite having blood on his hands, and being a war criminal..

So you're a republican and a Christian. Do you believe in, and support this line??

Reed Lover wrote: [QUOTE=maani] Every Christian I know believes in the Devil. That's no exaggeration.

Does that make the Devil a Christian?

Garion81 wrote:     Um if you read the first note in the thread you have his position.  Why do you feel the need to make this another political thread when it has nothing to do with the topic?  If there are 35 million evangelical Christians that elected GWB what happed to the other 90+ million who also cast votes?  They had no say in the outcome?  Give it a  rest.    In less than 4 years the boogey man will be all gone never to return.

Thank you Garion. I REALLY don't need these so called know-it-alls who don't even live in this country and have no idea what they are even spouting off. Talking about listening to propaganda.

Blacksword..your post is so ridiculous I wouldn't even know where to begin.

As Garion said...this was not meant to be a religeous debate and if you didn't understand my position from what I wrote at the beginning of this thread than you are obviously listening to too much rap.