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Quo Vadis Ukraine?
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Mirakaze View Drop Down
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Of course the message I spent over an hour writing down had to be caught at the bottom of the last page Censored I've tried to keep quiet here so far in part because I didn't want to be seen as speaking over the one actually Ukrainian voice in this thread, but there's only so much idiocy I can take.
@Prog-jester: You have my sincerest condolences for any loved ones you've lost in this horrible ordeal. Ukraine's independence will always have a place in my heart.


Edited by Mirakaze - October 10 2023 at 12:26
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thanks Mirakaze! People from Nethterlands understand the situation, especially after July 17th 2014...
Originally posted by Mirakaze Mirakaze wrote:

I really hope you don’t realize just how cold and callous you’re coming across, or how cheap it is for you to say things like “violence isn’t the answer”, “might makes right”, “c’est la vie” et cetera when it’s not your country being bombed or your friends and family being murdered.
don't forget, I'm also a "psychopath" still don't know why

Edited by Prog-jester - October 10 2023 at 12:39
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re Igor: I visited the Soviet Union back in the early 1980s, just curious, did you or your parents ever have the 'pleasure' of living under the iron thumb of the Soviets?
of course! They're both born in 1951, so they were forty when the USSR fell. I'm 36 now so I don't remember those times and I was growing up in the desperate 90s (we had to eat pigeons to survive...and some claim that Donbass is the richest part of Ukraine, hah).

But my mom was very vocal about the horrors of the Soviet times, she used to say she'd stay forever in the 90s than return to the USSR for one day. Hence I don't really understand the current trend of romanticizing/memeing the hammer and the sickle ideology, since it wasn't far removed from the nazi one... Well, I guess it's hard to understand if you didn't experience it yourself
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Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re Igor: I visited the Soviet Union back in the early 1980s, just curious, did you or your parents ever have the 'pleasure' of living under the iron thumb of the Soviets?
of course! They're both born in 1951, so they were forty when the USSR fell. I'm 36 now so I don't remember those times and I was growing up in the desperate 90s (we had to eat pigeons to survive...and some claim that Donbass is the richest part of Ukraine, hah).

But my mom was very vocal about the horrors of the Soviet times, she used to say she'd stay forever in the 90s than return to the USSR for one day. Hence I don't really understand the current trend of romanticizing/memeing the hammer and the sickle ideology, since it wasn't far removed from the nazi one... Well, I guess it's hard to understand if you didn't experience it yourself

Its good that some of the Soviet generation is still around, you certainly won't hear any of them making using excuses for Russian imperialism.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

you certainly won't hear any of them making using excuses for Russian imperialism.
well unfortunately some of them either very nostalgic or just have a massive Stockholm syndrome case...this is when you have conversations like "why do you even like USSR grandpa, most of the time you couldn't afford bread there! - but at least the rest of the world was afraid of us!!!"

Really sad. Also Putin is clearly playing on those Soveit-era "EVERYBODY IS AFRAID OF US, ERGO THEY RESPECT US" sentiments, that's why the majority of russians openly supports him
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Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

you certainly won't hear any of them making using excuses for Russian imperialism.
well unfortunately some of them either very nostalgic or just have a massive Stockholm syndrome case...this is when you have conversations like "why do you even like USSR grandpa, most of the time you couldn't afford bread there! - but at least the rest of the world was afraid of us!!!"

Really sad. Also Putin is clearly playing on those Soveit-era "EVERYBODY IS AFRAID OF US, ERGO THEY RESPECT US" sentiments, that's why the majority of russians openly supports him
Interesting.
Of course conditions under Soviet rule varied per country, some more harsh than others. The two I recall the most from my visit were East Germany (harsh) and Yugoslavia (less harsh). My girlfriend, who was raised in Soviet Poland, claims the East Germans had it good compared to the Polish.

Edited by Easy Money - October 10 2023 at 13:21
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

My girlfriend, who was raised in Soviet Poland, claims the East Germans had it good compared to the Polish.
...and Poland was a liberal heaven when compared to Ukraine or Bielorus I guess people in Moscow or Leningrad had it better but everywhere else it was rough. This review reveals some major points, just to compare, and the book itself could be useful for those who don't really know anything about the Soviet times. I mean...

Quote
- In 1976 only two thirds of Soviet families had a refrigerator—the USA hit two thirds in the early 1930s. Soviet families had to wait years to get one, and when they finally got a postcard giving notice they could buy one, they had a fixed one hour slot during which they could pick it up. They lost their chance if they did not arrive in time.

- In the same period, the USA had nearly 100m passenger cars. The USSR? Five million. People typically had to wait four to six years, and often as long as ten, to get one.

- There was 30x as much typhoid, 20x as much measles, and cancer detection rates were half as good as in the United States.

- Life expectancy actually fell in the Soviet Union during the 1960s and 1970s.

- The USSR had the highest physician-patient ratio in the world, triple the UK rate, but many medical school graduates could not perform basic tasks like reading an electrocardiogram.

- 15% of the population lived in areas with pollution 10x normal levels.

- By the US poverty measure, well over half of the Soviet population were poor.

- Around a quarter could not afford a winter hat or coat, which cost an entire month’s wages on average (the equivalent of £1700 in UK terms)




Edited by Prog-jester - October 10 2023 at 13:37
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Interesting story about my girlfriend's father escaping the Soviets. He was headed to Austria for a business trip. As soon as he stepped off the plane he went into a dead run headed for the nearby woods. He wandered in the woods for some time and finally found a village.

There is another PA site member whose parents literally dodged bullets while escaping Hungary, I forget his name and I haven't seen him in a while, but you have also already met Slava (PA name Snobb) who was raised in Soviet Lithuania and has plenty to tell about it.
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Lithuania
another country, which was lucky enough to step under NATO's protection after decades of russian colonial/imperialistic occupation When we played there with my band a year ago, the promoter gave us 100% of the show's money - after he heard me speaking from the stage that we're raising money for Ukrainians affected by the russian invasion.

Also there is something "NATO is also bad"-megabrains miss out: NATO never carried out a systematic destruction of cultural/historical heritage unlike soviets then and russia now. That's why non-russian ex-soviets are rarely nostalgic towards USSR
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Originally posted by Mirakaze Mirakaze wrote:


Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Sure, you can keep blaming the Russians exclusively, but from an outside perspective it seems like your government, as well as many others, also deserve some of the blame for failing to negotiate a peace agreement or at least a cease-fire.
Putin outright rejected a peace offer early on in the invasion that would have involved a guarantee that Ukraine would never join NATO, supposedly his main rationale for the invasion, and subsequent rounds of negotiation have not sparked much confidence in Russia's good faith, what with them violating the Black Sea grain deal multiple times and making ludicrous claims at the UN about Ukrainian bioweapons in the midst of peace talks.


That's news to me. Last I heard, it was Ukraine who sabotaged every attempt of negotiating peace by demanding that Russia give back Crimea (among other things) as well as all the occupied territories as a precondition for any talks.

Originally posted by Mirakaze Mirakaze wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

When it comes to agreements, how about James Baker promising Gorbatchev in 1990 that NATO would not expand eastwards?
That has nothing to do with the Budapest memorandum, and was never formally agreed upon in any treaty; if anything Baker only promised that the administration he represented would not pursue eastward expansion of NATO. Anyway, I'm sure you'll agree that accepting the pleas of other countries to be allowed into an alliance is of quite a different level compared to a military invasion of another country.

It was an agreement between two great powers, doesn't matter one bit how "formal" it was. Russia gave eastern Germany back to the West, which was a big deal. You can down-play it all you want, but Russia asked for non-expansion in return, and was in fact cheated repeatedly by step-wise expansion. Those who point this out usually explicitly say that this does not justify the invasion of Ukraine, as I have done, and which you conveniently ignore.

Originally posted by Mirakaze Mirakaze wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

And in more recent times, how about the Minsk 2 accord, where Ukraine promised to lead the Donbass oblasts into independence?
Wrong. Ukraine promised a higher level of autonomy for the Donbas and new regional elections to be monitored by them under OSCE supervision. The DPR and LPR signed the agreement and then violated it a few months later by announcing they would set up elections of their own without any supervision. Besides, Russia also promised to withdraw all its official and irregular fighters and they didn't exactly uphold that part of the bargain either.

Which in turn resulted in Ukraine shelling civilians in the Donbas with heavy artillery for years, resulting in thousands of deaths. Again, not a justification for the invasion, but not completely irrelevant either.

Originally posted by Mirakaze Mirakaze wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

And congratulations, you are the third person here to confuse "is" with "ought to be". 
I don’t think anyone is confused by this; if anything you seem to be confused since elsewhere in this thread you’re rightfully speaking out against the atrocities committed by the US government around the world, yet when it comes to atrocities committed by the Russian government you suddenly frame it as an amoral fact of life. The real difference is that the people you’re arguing with believe that we should make an active effort to make the way things currently are more like how they ought to be, whereas you don’t really seem to care (except when it suits your argument apparently). That’s fine, but at least be honest about it.

Wrong. I have never made any excuses for the Russians. The problem is that when I say that I don't approve of their actions, you. are. not. listening. You already made up your mind and see me as a Russian apologist simply because I didn't join the angry mob asking for their extermination. I've read it today in this disgusting thread: "you're either with us or against us". This is only said by evil totalitarian fascists. I'm simply refusing to be one.

I never said that people shouldn't try to change things in order to make the world more like it "ought to be". They should - but until the world changes, it is like it is! It's of no use to pretend that the world is different, just because we don't like it. Ignoring reality is precisely what keeps us from actually making the right changes. 

Originally posted by Mirakaze Mirakaze wrote:


Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

These territories are officially part of Russia, as the Russian parliament (the Duma) have decided. Remember: I'm not saying this is a good thing, I'm just stating facts.
Germany also formally declared that Poland was their territory. Surely you think it’s a good thing the world didn’t just accept that as a done deal, right?

Are you blind? Which part of "I'm not saying this is a good thing" should I explain more explicitly?

Originally posted by Mirakaze Mirakaze wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

But of course I forgot, only the Ukrainians matter. And that's why Stepan Bandera is a national hero to you - after all, the >100k people he had murdered were not Ukrainian either.
He explicitly called Bandera a Nazi and a war criminal when you asked him, what more do you want from him? And what kind of question was that anyway? Were you hoping to bait him into expressing support for Bandera just so you could smear the cause his people are fighting and dying for? I really hope you don’t realize just how cold and callous you’re coming across, or how cheap it is for you to say things like “violence isn’t the answer”, “might makes right”, “c’est la vie” et cetera when it’s not your country being bombed or your friends and family being murdered.

That's not what I'm saying at all. It's also not what Mearsheimer is intending with his "realism". Again, it is about understanding reality and acknowledging its current state, and then to analyze it rationally and without letting emotion get in the way, to come up with realistic options for the future. Chasing Russia out of Ukraine simply doesn't seem to be one of them, unfortunately. As he explains, keeping up this strategy will most likely result in Russia taking more Ukrainian territory. I can point out again that this is not something I approve of, which you and many others here will again not read. I'll do it anyway.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 10 2023 at 14:09
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

mEtApHySiCaL DiScUsSiOn


Are you a psychopath?
What makes you think Igor is a psychopath? He does not seem like that at all to me.
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Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

thanks Mirakaze! People from Nethterlands understand the situation, especially after July 17th 2014...
Originally posted by Mirakaze Mirakaze wrote:

I really hope you don’t realize just how cold and callous you’re coming across, or how cheap it is for you to say things like “violence isn’t the answer”, “might makes right”, “c’est la vie” et cetera when it’s not your country being bombed or your friends and family being murdered.
don't forget, I'm also a "psychopath" still don't know why

For the record: Didn't call you "a psychopath". I just refered to this as a "psychopathic rant":

Originally posted by Prog jester Prog jester wrote:

Jeez bandera nazis crimea referendum us maidan coup...the irony of reading russian propaganda bingo on a progressive (sic) music forum. Thankfully from the few users only.

I guess having an actual citizen of Ukraine telling you how it really is/was won't stop certain forum members from clinging to delusional stuff they chose to believe in. Probably life is easier that way - the country you never heard of before is all bad, therefore they all deserve to be wiped out by russians (who are also bad BUT YOU KNOW WHAT USA BAD ALSO!!1). Ridiculous and a little heartbreaking - I truly thought most prog fans are, well, progressive. Apparently not.

Well, you guys enjoy your little qanon cult, but don't be surprised to find a russian in your home soon, telling you he owns it now because nato biolabs something something nazis

I don't appreciate being called a qanon cult member, so maybe we could say "I'm sorry if I went too far" to each other and call it even? Smile
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Ukraine shelling civilians in the Donbas with heavy artillery for years, resulting in thousands of deaths

oh look, another russian propaganda trope! I won't talk about my mom living under the russian occupation in Donbass since 2014 and NEVER experiencing Ukrainian attacks - I'm an unreliable source, after all. Better look at these pictures:



Mariupol, once vibrant city of 300k Ukrainians, is a mass grave now

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:


you. are. not. listening. You already made up your mind

ironic

Edited by Prog-jester - October 10 2023 at 14:26
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I don't appreciate being called a qanon cult member, so maybe we could say "I'm sorry if I went too far" to each other and call it even? Smile

Didn't call you "a qanon cult member". I just refered to this as a "a qanon cult member rant"
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

mEtApHySiCaL DiScUsSiOn


Are you a psychopath?
What makes you think Igor is a psychopath? He does not seem like that at all to me.

His rants seem delusional to me. Maybe "psychopath" is a bit too harsh, but then again I've been called worse things in this thread, which is ok for most people as long as it is directed at people who are "not with them".

I wish we could just talk about facts, or at least try to. I'm prepared to accept that some of the things I take for granted may in fact be propaganda, but angry hyperbolic rants are just not the way to convince me. In my experience, when the "other side" responds with personal attacks, it's an indication that they do not have any rational arguments.
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Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I don't appreciate being called a qanon cult member, so maybe we could say "I'm sorry if I went too far" to each other and call it even? Smile

Didn't call you "a qanon cult member". I just refered to this as a "a qanon cult member rant"

Then who is the "qanon cult member" you were referring to? Wink
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Mike - "when the "other side" responds with personal attacks, it's an indication that they do not have any rational arguments"
I'd say asking someone if they are a psychopath fits your own definition of not having any rational arguments quite clearly.

You can't claim you were pushed into this, people(especially Russians) call me names on the internet all the time, I never respond in a like manner, to do so is just cowardly.

Edited by Easy Money - October 10 2023 at 14:33
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I wish we could just talk about facts
I gave you plenty on pages 6 and 7, yet you ignored them all and chickened out via "you are not capable of rational discussion" insult
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I'm prepared to accept that some of the things I take for granted may in fact be propaganda
yet you never did this once jeez this is so funny
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Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Mike - "when the "other side" responds with personal attacks, it's an indication that they do not have any rational arguments"
I'd say asking someone if they are a psychopath fits your own definition of not having any rational arguments quite clearly.

You can't claim you were pushed into this, people(especially Russians) call me names on the internet all the time, I never respond in a like manner, to do so is just cowardly.


What does it mean when your side responds with personal attacks, Easy Money? 

Russians call you names, Easy Money?   Do they use the English/Russian/ or another language to disparage you?   Could you provide examples?  I'm curious since I've never had a Russian call me a name, outside of Cindy.  
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