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Quo Vadis Ukraine? |
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Prog-jester 
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Joined: June 05 2005 Location: Love Beach Status: Offline Points: 5909 |
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 Posted: October 08 2023 at 17:37 |
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Sean Trane
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Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20414 |
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Posted: October 08 2023 at 17:47 |
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Totally uncalled for   As I said earlier today, I've already spent too much time on this thread.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Prog-jester
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Joined: June 05 2005 Location: Love Beach Status: Offline Points: 5909 |
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Posted: October 08 2023 at 18:03 |
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...parroting russian propaganda and normalizing its harmful tropes. I wish I could ask my two friends KIA by the russians if they were fighting to protect NATO... I wonder what they'd tell you
One of them was a founder of Kyiv's Rock School, he taught kids how to play music instruments and start music bands - you can read an obituary in Ukrainian |
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Lewian
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Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15151 |
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Posted: October 08 2023 at 18:04 |
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It's not that important really anyway; you guys love to use my Donbass remark as a distraction, don't you? In any case, "Dombass" occurred five times in the posting in question, so I can rather safely assume it wasn't a typo.
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Sean Trane
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Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20414 |
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 00:26 |
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I only checked my own posts, and that (this post you quoted) was the first time in this thread I wrote its name (correctly too).  Pettyness rules and ganging up seems a rule (not to mention the Trumpists insults of the other two). I accuse my own side (fortunately & unfortunately NATO is on my side) for its wrongdoing and yet I'm bedeviled  Can't you all see that all NATO did was to transform a regional cross-border conflict into a near-WW3??? Over & out.  I've got a pretty heavy professional week ahead of me. Edited by Sean Trane - October 09 2023 at 00:28 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 00:39 |
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There is plenty of propaganda on both sides. The main purpose is to keep the general population motivated to support the war, which in your case sadly means to volunteer to get torn to pieces by Russian artillery. Sure, you can keep blaming the Russians exclusively, but from an outside perspective it seems like your government, as well as many others, also deserve some of the blame for failing to negotiate a peace agreement or at least a cease-fire. This is what Mearsheimer talks about. He's not a fan of Putin at all, but he tries to look at the situation realistically and concludes that both the West and Russia have put themselves in a position where it will be very difficult to come to an agreement. Fascists on both sides, tribalism on both sides, propaganda on both sides, backing by nuclear weapons on both sides, corruption on both sides ... it's just a mess. The incredibly sad part is: There's good people on both sides as well! The general population wants the killing to stop, but unfortunately killing is good for business. And as long as governments are able to make their people think that they're fighting for a noble motive instead of making the ruling class richer or more powerful, the slaughter will continue. I'm really sorry for your two friends. But unfortunately, what they think they were fighting for is one thing, and what your government and its allies are trying to achieve is another.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 09 2023 at 00:42 |
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richardh
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Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 29452 |
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 02:51 |
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^ a lot of this I agree with but it doesn't change the fact that Putin decided to invade Ukraine. Many don't see a lot of difference with Hitler invading Poland and the potential consequences could be catastrophic. The difference between this and the events of WW2 is that Ukraine are putting up a mucg better fight than the likes of Poland, France, Belgium ever did. They are lionhearted and deserve respect. As you say though there seems to be no good 'out' to the whole mess and now we have Palestine and Israel. I am very fearful for the near future what with a hard line China emerging and that idiot in North Korea. At least Putin is not an idiot, just miscalculated badly thinking it would be an easy win and not too much blood shed. He got that hopelessly wrong for sure.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 03:44 |
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^ Sure, Putin made the decision to invade Ukraine. The point is that if Russia sees a NATO-controlled Ukraine as an existential threat (and there is a lot of evidence that they do), they are not going to retreat. Russia is doing great economically, and even if they underestimated the resistance Ukraine would put up through the massive support by NATO, they (NATO and Ukraine) underestimated the ability of Russia to ramp up their efforts accordingly. Remember that Russia openly said in the years before the invasion that they would rather raze Ukraine to the ground than let NATO control it. We can complain about it all day long or point out that the Ukrainians want to be part of NATO, but remember that might makes right in geopolitical matters. Neither US/NATO nor Russia care about what the Ukrainians want, or about what their own constituents want for that matter. They care about what they can achieve militarily and economically, and at what cost, and about how all of that can be sold to the general public through the propaganda machine.
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suitkees
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 04:22 |
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This
is - indeed - the ideology of which Mearsheimer is a proponent of, and as
such he becomes a mouthpiece for Putin. "We" label this kind of ideology as
"realist", but in my eyes it is a despicable kind of ideology that puts
power values over human(ist) and moral values. It means to accept to be subjected to the invading power because he is more powerful. Those are not my kind of values and I will always go against those who adhere to this kind of, I repeat, despicable ideology.
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 05:21 |
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^ Sorry, but it is a fact that might makes right in geopolitics. It is not a matter of opinion, values or ideology. All geopolitical players do as they please in their realm of influence, including the US, Russia and China.
You need to distinguish between what "is" (fact) and what "ought to be" (values). When I am saying that might makes right, that is just an observation - I do not like it at all, but it is how the world works. You can be opposed to it, you can speak up against it, you can wish it was not true ... but that does not change the facts.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 09 2023 at 05:37 |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18066 |
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 06:42 |
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Hi, I won't argue with your thoughts ... I think they are more "right" than "wrong" ... however, I have one thought that is a problem. Even one famous story was culled from a lot of things 300 some years after the fact, what is now considered horrible news reporting, and it is a well known fact that a lot of it was re-written from the original texts, most of which have remained hidden by some powers that be, so they can maintain their imagined world in one piece, and make their flock think they know "God" (or whoever!!!) and this is what the public needs to know! As such, and this goes back to the days of what became "Christian thought" that invaded Greece and changed all the stories so all the women are vain, bad and silly and easy to take advantage of. The main issue I have is that the "powers that be" are not always the truth, and neither are they reliable and true. But we "accept" that as truth, that power is number one, and this is so prevalent in the top ten world of music, and so visible in this site and many others ... the top "numbers" rule, and we allow the falsity to continue working. As a friendly reminder, you might want to check out Virgin Records start ... they "created" their own top ten, and next thing you know a lot of their stuff was selling. And color balls came next, of course, by ripping off many folks ... and Tangerine Dream, and Gong and many others will never see a single cent for it! Please ... stop endearing the "powers" that be ... they need to be taken down!
Edited by moshkito - October 09 2023 at 06:43 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 07:03 |
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^ How am I "endearing" these powers? You are also confusing "is" and "ought". It IS a fact that might makes right in geopolitics. When NATO decided to bomb Serbia without a UN mandate, they did - and to this day there are no major repercussions. I agree with you that this is absolutely not ok, and things should work differently, but changing this is easier said than done. Violence is never the answer, so maybe the best we can do is to speak up on these matters.
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Prog-jester
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Joined: June 05 2005 Location: Love Beach Status: Offline Points: 5909 |
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 09:30 |
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jeez you guys hate to google facts before saying anything, do you
wrong again - it was Putin who ordered Russia's nuclear forces to go into a "special mode of combat duty", literally four days into 2022 invasion
 You seriously think anyone can trust russia on aGrEeMeNtS? Why you treat them as decent politicians when they're literally just mafia?But hey, have fun with the mEtApHySiCaL DiScUsSiOn of the actual war that's getting closer to your homes while you're blaming NATO and arguing if Ukraine should surrender the "historically russian" (lol) territories - territories that russians turn into mass graves Edited by Prog-jester - October 09 2023 at 09:31 |
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Easy Money
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Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10679 |
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 11:04 |
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Some parents of one of my students adopted an orphaned Ukrainian girl. Her parents were killed in the invasion, they were not soldiers, just citizens. |
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Atavachron
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65603 |
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 12:26 |
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Oh, the sophistry, it makes one want to... well... throw up. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 14:33 |
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Are you a psychopath?
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MikeEnRegalia
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21596 |
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 14:36 |
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Ok, you literally have nothing to say. Why not just shut up? If you think one of my arguments was false or made in an attempt to deceive people, then tell me. Give an example, explain why it is false. And congratulations, you are the third person here to confuse "is" with "ought to be".
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - October 09 2023 at 14:41 |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 14:49 |
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If I remember correctly, Crimea declared independency about one month after a pro-western regime was installed in the Ukraine in February 2014. Why would you call it an invasion when the Russians were already there? When it comes to agreements, how about James Baker promising Gorbatchev in 1990 that NATO would not expand eastwards? https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early And in more recent times, how about the Minsk 2 accord, where Ukraine promised to lead the Donbass oblasts into independence? |
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Prog-jester
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 15:10 |
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omphaloskepsis
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Joined: October 19 2011 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 6801 |
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Posted: October 09 2023 at 15:10 |
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You're right. Baker promised Gobatchev that NATO would not expand an inch eastwards. However, Baker told the truth. NATO expanded a thousand miles eastwards. That's not an inch. Besides, Europe is on the metric system. Inches don't count. Sure, Ukraine promised to lead the Donbass oblasts into independence. However, it's OK when Ukraine breaks a treaty. It's 4-D chess when America breaks a treaty. That's why the World trusts America! |
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MikeEnRegalia wrote:
